Background: My father picked up a used 5906, first year production. He decided to give it to me (like I need another 9mm) so hey! new gun!

Everything looked good until I put it on safe and thought, "That's odd. Isn't that supposed to decock the hammer?" As a safety it's great. As a decocking lever, not so much. So I got in touch with S&W and sent the gun in for repair.

After 10 weeks in the que, I got a call. "Yeah, we can't fix it. The frame rails are too worn." Seriously. What do the frame rails have to do with the decocking function? It's a steel gun, how many rounds has this thing seen?

They gave me the choice of sending the gun home or a discount on a currently manufactured handgun. I should get it back today. I'm kind of at a loss what to do with it. I don't mind shooting it or even keeping it in the truck since I know what its issues are, but I have other guns that fulfill those roles and I'm not a big fan of the third gen autos anyway. I really hesitate to gift it to one of the kids, which was the original plan. I hesitate to sell it in not-perfect condition even though it's functional. Does anyone else besides S&W work on these guns? Is it even worth my time and effort to get it fixed?

Sigh.

As a big 3rd Gen fan, when I read what you wrote I was confused. Then I realized that at no time do I ever put a 3rd Gen "on safe". I load them, rack the slide, decock, set to fire (after dropping the magazine and adding back one round). I treat them like revolvers - no safety needed. However, if your decocker is not working, which is weird, I can only recommend a local gunsmith in Dallas. If you don't mind shipping it back and forth send me a PM and I'll hook you up.

Okay, I don't wanna sound like a know-it-all jerk because I'm only half of that (heh) but it is my opinion that there is a collection of people who know about as little about 3rd Gens as any collection of people in the industry and they work at S&W currently.

I'm not saying there is nobody at S&W that knows a 3rd Gen. I'm saying that there are a slew of people working there that don't know their butt from a hole in the ground and I would love to see someone else look at this 5906 and agree that it is "worn out."

S&W has shown us plenty of times that it's a lottery when you deal with them -- some folks there are far better than others.

Wish I could help you with your specific problem, I'm sure some fine advice will show up right here and doing the work won't be tough. But call me very skeptical that your pistol is "worn out."

My money is on the side of "whoever made that assessment is a tool that assembles tupperware guns and scrubs the tables in the break room."

Didn't S&W say no more repairs or parts on Gen 3 guns about a year ago?

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Eccentric old coot

Just for the heck of it disassemble the slide and then reassemble after cleaning and lubing the parts.

It could have been put back together wrong by the previous owner or needs a good cleaning.

BTW,have you fired the gun as is before sending it off?

If yes,did it function correctly?

Another option is a complete slide off ebay for parts.

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NEVER GIVE UP YOUR GUN

Sounds like the sear release lever is worn out. Corrective action for the condition you describe is fitment of a new sear release lever. This is a part that requires precise fitting and gauging to assure proper timing of the decock function.

I can kinda see the rationale behind what they told you. You see the sear release lever is frame mounted, pivots on the hammer pin in fact. The sear release lever is pressed downward by the manual safety lever that's slide mounted of course. It stands to reason if the frame/slide is worn to such extent that permits the slide to lift upward off the frame thereby increasing the distance between the lever and the safety, I can foresee a condition where the safety can't press downward far enough to release the sear and lower the hammer.

I would fit a new replacement sear release lever and see if that doesn't correct the issue. Note: this is something best performed by someone knowledgeable of 3rd gen guts.

BTW, Brownells has the levers SMITH & WESSON SEAR RELEASE LEVER | Brownells

Cheers
Bill

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Because they don't make a .46

If it was mine I'd either fix it myself or let a gunsmith do it.

BMCM explained a possible problem that could be involved.

My personal thoughts? At a guess? Having been trained as a S&W armorer for the 3rd gen's?

The "decocking timing" must fall within a specific range in order to occur safely and properly.

The sear release lever, being located in the frame (as BMCM described), has to be lowered the proper amount, in the proper "timing". This occurs by it "indexing" against the corresponding surface (above it) of the manual safety assembly's cylindrical body, as the safety assembly is rotated (which occurs by depressing the lever, or levers, if it's ambi).

This tolerance/spec range for normal engagement between the sear release lever & manual safety/decocker assembly takes into account the expected tolerance between the frame & slide rails, meaning the allowable amount of minor movement between them.

Now, if the frame rails have been excessive worn, that can create problems. Since it's a used gun, you have no way to know how much use it's seen ... or ... whether a previous owner my have deliberately did something to it which affected frame rail condition, like "hand-lapping or polishing" the frame rails. (One of those do-it-yourself ways to create problems with an otherwise good gun, and which was seemingly way too popular many years ago.)

Now, while I've not personally seen a steel-framed 3rd gen which had developed excessive frame/slide rail tolerance issues, I have seen an early production aluminum-framed 5904, which had been used HARD, but without sufficient lubrication (it was bone dry when brought in for "problems"). The rear set of frame rails had become so worn down that the gun developed excessive slide movement and functioning issues. So many years have passed that I can't remember if decocking timing & function was one of them, though. It was an issued weapon, so it was just considered "toast" and pulled from service. (Other users got a strict reminder to properly maintain lubrication.)

FWIW, the standard 3rd gen frame rails, sometimes called "stepped" rails, were smaller and less thick than the later TSW "box-type" rails. Those original standard rails could sometimes be "more generous" in the amount of movement possible in any particular gun compared to the thicker TSW rails, which provided for "tighter" fit between the frame/slide rails.

If the 5906 frame (and maybe slide?) rails have become too worn (for whatever reason), it may no longer be possible to fit a sear release lever so that the decocking timing can be kept within the necessary spec range.

If it were me, and my gun, as a S&W 3rd gen armorer I'd have taken them up on the offer of keeping the gun and giving me a discount on another, like a M&P or a SW1911. There are still other 3rd gen's out there you could find to pass down in the family.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

I would do this first, before moving on to sending it to a gunsmith. I have seen firearms that were so dirty internally that it affected the actual physical movement of safety/fire control components. I always try fixing the easy stuff first, some times it does the trick. If it is still not working, no harm, no foul. You have only lost some time.

How much was S&W going to give you for the gun towards a new gun?

They were going to let me have an M&P for $405. Looks like MSRP for those is $599, so not quite $200 off. Maybe that would have been a good deal; I dunno.

That doesn't sound very good, look up the price on Gallery of Guns, and see what a M&P goes for. I am finding $480 to 500 in my area. They are giving you about 80 dollars for your gun. You probably could sell it for parts for twice that.

If the gun can't be repaired you could also get a $200 gift card next time the local police do a buy back.

"Gun buyback"? What foreign language are you speaking? They don't do those around here; one of the MANY reasons I live where I do.

Some Gen 3s. 59XX was one. I just spoke with 'Dave' last Monday. Parts inventories insufficient.

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Bob

Probably why S&W CS wanted to keep it and give the OP a trivial amount off a cheap plastic wonder gun... to get their hands on some nifty used 5906 parts.

Ha!!! Here in the People's Republic, specifically in the Boston area, it is very hard to find a working handgun for sale for less than $200 anywhere. Why? Because the anti's & cops will pay you $200 in gift cards on the spot for any old piece of questionable junk you bring them. So why bother with the time, hassle and expense of selling?

I've been tempted myself on a couple worthless, unwanted cheapies I own... but so far I've chilled.

II am wondering is this an example of how S&W will handle lifetime warranties?

Look at it the same as a used car.

If it costs too much to fix, then buy another used car.

I'd see if someone could fix it, or fix it yourself, but the price of a used 5906 around here is $400. I wouldn't pour much money into it, since you could just buy another used one, and sell the parts to recoup some of that cost.

Knowing me, I'd probably buy another used 5906, and keep the parts as spares for it.

Detail strip the pistol, clean, inspect for missing or incorrectly installed or altered parts. Take corrective action.
Worse case scenario, one has a cocked and blocked single action pistol that can be manually decocked (be very careful) to be carried as a DA/SA pistol.

I think the bigger question is what would it take for S&W to start honoring their lifetime extended service policy again on 1st, 2nd and 3rd Gen pistols? Would it really be that terrible to run a few batches of critical spare parts?

I don't know the answer to that. Maybe it would be a terrible thing for their bottom line.

If truly unfixable, it certainly wouldn't be the end of the world to part it out depending on what the OP's father paid for that gun.

99% of the posters here are more 3rd-Gen savvy than me ... but, in addition to the comments about dis-assembly, cleaning and lubing - I would be tempted to see if the sear release lever actually trips the sear. Pull the slide off and cock the hammer, then pressing on the lever (arrow) should decock the hammer. I used a 6906 for the photo so I cushioned the hammer-fall against the aluminum frame. One potential problem is someone used a mallet to put the slide back on the frame - not realizing that all three levers have to be depressed for the slide to go on smoothly. I bet the sear release lever is buggered up or damaged from improper assembly. As already posted, and linked, it's a cheap part from Brownell's. Just sayin'



This may have already been mentioned - I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer I didn't mention the safety barrel (which depresses the sear release lever when the safety is pressed) since it is a much more robust part than the sear release lever. If the sear release lever is fine - then that leaves - as mentioned above - the possibility that the slide has too much vertical play at the rear when fully in battery ... making it a parts gun I guess.

Here's a quote from the S&W website:

I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but I note that the warranty covers defects in material or workmanship. In pretty much any warranty you look at, normal wear isn't considered being a defect, which will rule out many claims. In the case of true material defect in a discontinued model, S&W may offer a suitable replacement, but again, it has to be a defect in material or workmanship. For example, in the case of a revolver, timing issues would most likely fall under normal wear, where as a broken hand would most likely be considered covered under material defect (ruling out Saturday night gunsmithing or other misuse).

As an aside, one advantage to today's machining methods is the ability to store the manufacturing of parts digitally, so it wouldn't be far fetched to see S&W store these for future use, should an out dated part be needed. They could even do this for MIM parts, so that 50 years from now, someone returns a post lock gun for repairs, they could feed the cutting path into a machine and cut a replacement part in a short period of time. Or, more and more likely, print one. And people thought MIM was bad, wait until they start printing parts!

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So many S&W's, so few funds!!

Never fear. Apex Tactical will soon be here.

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

We can only hope!

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Can open, worms everywhere.

Tom S:

I believe you are correct about the warranty not covering wear and tear on the pistol. I addition, it seems the problem that many run into is the "original owner" part. It seems when S&W doesn't want to work on a pistol, they fall back on that provision. In fact, the OP in this thread is not the original owner of the pistol.

Between 2007 and 2008, at the height of 3rd Gen buying craze, I called S&W Customer Service a couple of times (a 6904 and a 4576 frame decocker) to request a "call tag" to send in a 3rd Gen for work. They didn't ask, and I did not tell them I wasn't the original owner of the pistol. However, I always started the call by saying something along the lines of, "I'm having this problem with my pistol that I've never notice in all the time I've owned it." I would then describe the problem and then say, "Can you guys help me? I've always loved Smiths and I really like 3rd Gen autos." By the way, all those statements were true.

Now this was back in 07 and 08 when the factory had a lot of parts and there were still a fair number of guys there who were pretty familiar with 3rd Gen pistols. In fact, since the "techs" would frequently answer the CS phones when I called in to order extra parts (side plates, recoil spring guides, trigger play springs, rivets, various springs, levers, etc.), I would often get some great tips for working on my pistols.

IIRC a few years back a member of this forum who was the original owner of a 3rd Gen that could not be repaired by S&W was offered a new pistol, I thing it was an M&P. But that was then and this is now. So, who knows.

Just my $ .02

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1st Signal Brigade, RVN '70

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

I hope I'm not thread jacking, but I just bought a seldom fired 4013TSW pre-rail and the first thing I noticed was it didn't decock. I put it in the safe and just remembered it reading this.

Was it ever a feature to not decock? Or is every third gen supposed to? I own less than a dozen third gens so I'm no expert.

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Kirk / Spock 2020

Makes me wonder which models did and didn't decock...
Some MFR's mixed and matched...some did & some didn't.

Use the old safety test, go to your favorite range...
load normally...put safety ON and try to fire it...
if it goes BANG like a Lorcin/Raven would often do,
that's a problem. If it doesn't fire, no problem

Then try to push the safety past the safe click...
if it decocks, cool, if there is no movement,
probably isn't a decock version...
if there is a little movement past safe, and it
won't decock, disassemble, clean it and try again.

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Marlin & Calico Specialist

The Super 9 did not decock, but I'm pretty sure all other non-PC models did.

.

Same for the 845 Limited. The de-cocking lever is just a blocker. Pushing it down does not "drop" the hammer. The hammer can still be "released" by the trigger but it's blocked from hitting the firing pin, when it's down. It's also capable of being fired without a magazine inserted.

.

PC 845 Limited

(-07a)

.

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Waiting for the break of day

Just for clarity, S&W never had a lifetime service policy on 1st & 2nd Gen pistols, this policy was rolled out in around 1989 IIRC.

As for "a few batches of critical parts", I certainly doubt it is that is the case. Many small parts were likely provided by contract from an outside supplier and while we obviously love these guns (and we always will) it isn't realistic for any gunmaker to keep parts on hand for guns that have been off the market for more than a decade.

We can split hairs about exactly how long they have been off the market, but at least we're in this together.

I vote for trying a new sear release lever. They cost less than $4.

I agree. **** of a deal. Who cares what MSRP is? Real price for an M&P is no higher than 450 near me. I'd tell them to send it back. Keep it for a plinker.

Yep S&W said they were no longer going to make parts for the Gen 3 guns. My bet is some of the more popular parts will be picked up by some company but only time will tell.

I can't blame S&W, those guns haven't been made for a long time, there's limits to what a company can do on older guns

Correct, of course. Sorry for the generalization. But as a practical matter, the "policy" seems to have always existed internally if not been out there in print as a marketing strategy.

Respectfully, I've got to question the outside supplier thing as a valid excuse. We know it did apply to plastic parts and to magazines at times... maybe even to springs in general too. But to other internal pistol parts? That I would find hard to believe in the time frame we are talking about.

Yeah, some of S&W's "swap-for-new" deals and discount deals have been pretty unimpressive. Right now in my area, pre-M2.0 M&P's can be had for chump change. Slightly used ones are nearly being given away.

Until a few years ago, the polymer frames of the M&P guns were made by a sub contractor in CT. S&W bought the company, so now they are made by S&W employees, but at the same facility.

We know that S&W contracted out production of magazines.

They made most of the parts themselves, but no doubt they also had small parts made by outside vendors.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

I can't imagine there are many industries covering all aspects of mass-produced products that don't use outside part vendors and manufacturers for small parts that are used for their product.

For one company to build a machine that uses literally dozens of parts... to also build each of the small parts in-house? That's very nearly the most expensive way to build any product, and especially a small machine that uses dozens of small parts.

The last time I was lucky enough to take a tour of the S&W factory (2012), we walked by some bins filled with forgings that they had made for other companies. One was an engine cover of some sort that had "HD" on the end. As in Harley Davidson. There were also several bins with what looked like plumbing elbows waiting for final machining. I never heard who they were for, but they were definitely not gun parts.

The guide explained to us that S&W took on contract work do keep the machines running even when there were no guns to be made. Of course that was before Newtown, so I imagine afterwards they had no problem keeping the machines busy.

Two things that I've subsequently heard that I can't confirm, but sort of make sense.

First, that at one time S&W forged 1911 frames for Kimber.
Second, that S&W doesn't forge their own AR lowers. I know that a lot of smaller volume custom AR manufacturers by the raw forgings and then do the finish work themselves. I have two ARs that I built using lowers that were finished by a small shop in Maine. The owner told me that he bought the raw forgings from a company in the mid west that made them for a lot of other companies.

I have no problem imagining that S&W buys all of their springs from a company that specializes in making springs. They may well get a lot of internal small parts from companies that specialize in stamping out small metal parts.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

The "lifetime service policy" for their pistols started with them offering it to LE agencies with the early 3rd gen's, and then a little later to the public.

Besides, it was never offered to all owners, but just the original buyer. The company offering "warranty repairs" to second & third hand buyers was really a courtesy. The public sometimes got a deal when the company sold refurbed LE turn-ins & demos, as they would usually offer an extended warranty on those.

I once asked someone I knew at the company (now retired) how often they made orders of repair parts for the 3rd gen's. He told me back then (late 2000's) it was done only every so often, and at that time the company had been sitting on making an order of close to up to $3 Million of 3rd gen parts for a couple of years, having been instead focused on pouring money into new equipment and other R&D for other gun lines/models.

I've called to place some occasional orders for odds & ends to fill in my armorer kits over the last few years, and sometimes I've been told they aren't ordering any more of those parts (because they hardly ever require replacement), and other times I've been told the parts are on back-order (supposedly meaning they only infrequently order a small supply of parts nowadays).

Now that the handful of remaining major LE agency customers have been told that no more new TSW's are going to be made for them, the 3rd gen's are history.

Now, for the original buyers/owners of 3rd gen guns? Well, I'd not be surprised to see the company continue to offer the typical minor repairs that may sometimes be required over the long term, like fitting & replacing an extractor, ejector or sear release lever, as those parts are relatively cheap and don't take up much space. The sear release lever and extractors do, however, require some knowledge to fit them to the individual guns. It's anybody's guess how long that institutional knowledge and experience is going to remain available in the pistol repair depts.

From the OP's post, it sounds like the repair tech tried to repair the third-hand 5906, but couldn't because the frame rails had become out-of-spec. That's not something you really hear about happening very often, especially with a steel-framed model, so it's not really a surprise they were unable to repair the gun.

In my opinion, considering the gun was (at least) third-hand, them offering what seems to have amounted to an "armorer discount" was a nice gesture, and one I'd have accepted.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

They made it very clear to my department about 6 or 8 years ago that they were getting out of the 3 gen business. About a year or so after that they notified us that were done servicing gen 3 6906s and sooner than later the 5906 would go the same route and any needed parts support would soon need to be sought elsewhere. About 5 years ago my department moved on from its 130 plus year partnership with S&W, so I have no idea what 3rd gen support looks like today. Honestly I am surprised S&W even took the time to look at it.

IMO, they ain't exactly doing you any big favors, offering you an M&P for $405, (plus your transfer fee).
M&P's, Glocks, FN's, XD's, etc, can be found all day long on Armslist, for the same money or less, and typically LNIB and with extra mags, ammo, holsters, night sights.....
But, I wonder if S&W would be open to any "negotiating". You could try mentioning their recent rebate deals that include extra mags.
If they'd toss in a pair of extra mags, that might be a pretty nice deal (all things considered), and you'd have that full original-owner warranty.
Assuming you haven't done anything yet, I'd make the pitch for a couple extra mags, and take the deal.
(But,of course, you should first be sure there isn't one of the cheap fixes mentioned above. Obviously, that's the way to go, if possible).

I found this interesting enough to take the pistol apart and check the function of the sear release lever. When depressed, the sear DOES NOT release. When viewed from above, the lever has a slight yet noticeable curve. It does go all the way down into the frame, until it hits what appears to be a small stop-pin in the frame recess. Guess I'll be ordering a lever from Brownell's, and to heck with S&W repair.

It sounds like "the slide was worn" because that's wear and tare to me. Also-10 weeks!!!!! and even then-you had to call THEM!

That depends greatly on the end product and what it's made up from. If everything is machined from the the same material, then doing everything in house is the best method. When other materials are involved, then it can pay to look to source the parts manufacturing especially if the material requires special processes or is propitiatory. Of course none of this applies if the company is looking to cut labor costs by utilizing foreign labor.

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So many S&W's, so few funds!!

I think folks might be surprised in this brave new age of outsourcing and in-house parts assembly only how many parts S&W manufactured themselves for the all-metal pistols in Springfield and Houlton. But I understand the suspicion, especially now that plastic wonder guns with near zero gunsmithing are S&W's bread and butter.

I got hit with the bad MOJO last night. After I read this post, I got a gun or two from the safe for a range day. My model 39 did the same thing. Now I have to read all of the new posts and find a rabbits foot.

Numrich Gun Parts is your friend.

I've learned more on fixing my own problems
by working on my own guns than I ever did in the Army.
Started on .22's and applied the info upwards as I went.

98% of gun issues are Ammo, Cleaning, Polishing, & Springs,
in that order. The rest are nitpicky oddball weird stuff.

Ultrasonic cleaners are WONDERFUL on slides

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Marlin & Calico Specialist

Sorry. I know it's technically possible to wear the frame out but I have a tough time believing it on a steel framed gun... unless it was borderline when new.
I'd want the gun back. As has been suggested, detail strip it & inspect all the component parts. I'd really like to have good spares to compare them to.
Please post the results of this inspection.

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NRA LIFE
Reserve Officer 9yrs