I've owned a Model 41 since the 1980's, and thoroughly enjoy it. I know it's designed for one-hand shooting, but I have always used two hands, and the gun always felt comfortable when I didn't think about how I was holding it.

After shooting other guns I have some doubts about the proper grip for the Model 41. If I were to shoot one handed, my right hand grip would fit naturally around the gun, with my thumb resting on top of the thumb rest. But, that doesn't make for a comfortable grip when I add my left hand, as my palm is held away from the left grip unless I move my left hand down quite low. If I grip the gun the way it feels most natural, my left hand ends up higher, and my right thumb ends up "outside" of my left hand. There never seems to be a way to get both thumbs comfortably in place.

If we exclude "comfort", what is the best grip with the Model 41 to get the best accuracy? My hands are of average size, not particularly large or small. With a Matchdot II on top of the gun, I can get 2" groups at 15 yards. With the long barrel and steel sights I am now shooting a 3" group. I know the gun is capable of much more, and I'm still the "weak link" in the chain, but trying to improve. That got me to wondering if I am holding the gun "properly".

I'll include a photo of yesterday's targets. I think I'm seeing the sights properly, am using "area aiming", and am thinking only of gradually increasing pressure on the trigger, so I never know when the gun will fire. I'm trying to figure out what to do next, to reduce the group size.

Attached Images

model-41-steel.jpg (72.8 KB, 154 views)

I hold mine just like I do a 1911. Only difference is, no need for a "high thumb" to hold the safety down. By the way, I'm left handed.

I don't really see why this would be a complex question. Hope this is helpful.

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Dave Brown
SWCA #3279

It's not a complex question, it's hopefully rather simple. Your suggestion would work better for me, if I bought a set of 1911 style grips from Herret's. Otherwise, it's difficult for me to do on the Model-41 compared to my 1911, as the 1911 doesn't have the large thumb rest.

Thanks - maybe you've been quite helpful - maybe I should just call Herret's back. I figured I would ask here before doing so.

I use what we call The Teacup Grip with my right hand holding my 41 and my left hand enclosing the bottom like a tea cup. For me it works extremely well and is easy to pick up on as well.

Mike, your second post contained the very answer I was going to suggest. If Herrett still makes their "Trainer" grip that replicates the shape and feel of a standard 1911 grip, that would be the way I would go. I put a set of them on a Military Grip High Standard and they worked out great. I think that would be your best and simplest solution.

Regards,
Froggie

The grip that consistently gets the best results for you is the right one.

I dream of buying a Model 41 after I win the lottery.

Thanks, Green Frog. I called Herret's last week, and Dee was going to get back to me, but I was out of town. I will most likely call her tomorrow and order them. (I already bought a pair for my High Standard - worked great!).

How will it look it you only use one hand?

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Mike
Smith & Wesson 1911 Frame Adapter

Hamden, what is that? What does it do? Why might someone want one?

I also use the teacup method of hold on most of my guns (revolvers ,pre-woodsman - similar to 41). works very well the second hand is just there to stabilize the main hand. I can get at 20 yards 1 inch groups with my colt pre-woodsman king super target with this hold.

Smith & Wesson 1911 Frame Adapter

It is an aluminum adapter that mounts in place of the 41 factory grip and has wood grip panels just like regular 1911 grip panels.
This grip makes your 41 like a 1911. Far better than the Herrett Trainer.
If your hand is small you want the straight back set. It is like a flat 1911 main spring housing.
The other one is more like the 1911 arched mainspring housing.
Some fitting may be required.

I think you will like the Herrets. They look great and work great with a two hand hold.

What is "area aiming?"

There's truth in the old adage "aim small, miss small."

I assume you're shooting offhand, unsupported. The gun is certainly capable of shooting better than you ( or I) can hold. My advice is to first determine what YOU are capable of under ideal circumstances. This means removing as much human error as possible. Support the gun on sandbags so it is absolutely immobile once the sights are precisely on the target. Take a deep breath, let half of it out and hold it. Gently, firmly squeeze the trigger so the sights remain remain absolutely immobile throughout the trigger squeeze and, yes, you are "surprised" when it breaks. Practice that, and you'll be able to call a bad shot the instant it breaks and know what went wrong.

Once you've established what YOU are capable of ....5 shots in 1" or 3/4" or one ragged hole at 50 feet....then you can better assess what it is that limits you when you shoot offhand.

No doubt, to improve you will need to do better at seeing and maintaining a perfect and immobile sight picture. Movement is the variable between benched and offhand shooting.

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Carry.."hope" isn't a strategy

Although I had never heard it referred to as a "teacup grip" until this thread, that is exactly what I have used for years, and it is comfortable and works great for me. Like many other things, it's all about what feels comfortable and works for the individual shooter.

If you are lucky enough to have a copy of "The Pistol Shooter's Treasury", area aiming is an article by Paul B Weston reprinted from Paul's book "Target Shooting Today, Chapter 6".

The concept is that since nobody can really aim at a 'point', it's better to aim at an area the size of one's ability to hold.

If you went to shoot at a target and all your shots ended up somewhere in a six inch grouping, that is your ability to shoot. Instead of aiming at any particular spot, just point the gun at the blurry area that we're talking about. No need to be accurate. If the sights are lined up properly, and if you don't disturb the gun as you work the trigger, your shots will be within that area every time.

It makes a lot of sense to me now, although when I first read it, I thought it was crazy. I thought I "knew" that you need to aim at the middle of the bullseye, even though all my shots were scattered within an area around that spot. Aiming at that spot is a mistake, if for no reason other than you're supposed to be looking at the front sight, not the target. So, forget precise aiming. Line up your sights perfectly, and don't disturb things when you fire the shot.

Still have doubts? Shoot at a plain piece of 8 1/2" x 11" writing paper, and shoot away, allowing your subconscious to more or less point at the target, and while holding as perfect a sight alignment as you can, spend all your concentration on the trigger. The resulting grouping will probably be better than when you aimed at a bullseye. I didn't believe it - but it worked.

It's difficult to find that book - I eventually did, on Amazon. Wonderful book, especially for bullseye shooting.

Maybe I should write a book titled "Aim small, Miss Small."

I aim precisely at the finest point my vision can perceive.

In my youth I won 4 state titles shooting iron-sighted revolvers at 12x 24" targets at 220 yards.

At 65 I can still put 5 shots in a 3" inch group with an iron-sighted revolver @ 100 yds. So can my 60-yr old buddy.

I'll send you a copy when it's done.

Shoot well.

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Carry.."hope" isn't a strategy

I grip it like a 1911 and have my left thumb resting on the "thumb rest" from the first joint onward. It over rides my right thumb nicely that way.

If I ever am able to shoot the way you describe, my "area aiming" might be around half an inch or so. With my current ability, and my current eyes, I can only do what I showed in the attachment to my first post, and I'm shooting at only 15 yards. (I can do better with a red dot sight.)

If you're using a revolver with open sights, and you're focused on the front sight, meaning the target is a gray blur, how can you even "see" a tiny point to aim at? For me, I can see the target, or I can see the front sight. The only way I can see both is with a red dot sight.

I don't doubt that you can do what you say, but I have no idea on how to get to "there" from where I am now (other than more and more dry fire, and live fire). I see how much my front sight "wiggles" when I'm aiming, and to put all the rounds into a three inch grouping, I would need to put my arms in some kind of support. How did you get so good?

You're on exactly the right track.

You're aware of the "wiggle." Your goal is to eliminate it. Don't take lightly my comment about holding your breath, as a for instance. Precision shooters joke (half in jest) about being able to pause your heartbeat.

Precision shooting is putting all the bullets into the same hole...regardless if it hits the bull. Accurate shooting is hitting the target every time....regardless of the group size. That's where a technique, such as area aiming might be useful....the group size is adequately small to hit the target every time, such as shooting a 3" group in a 6" bull. But a 1" group will do that, as well as allowing you to hit a 3" bull every time.

When I said "finest point" I didn't mean "tiniest bull." I meant tiny, single point of intersection of post and target. I shoot sub - 1.5" groups at 50 yards using a 6" square with a 4" inner circle. I suggest using a round black dot for a bull...1 - 2" in diameter for 30-75 ft target distance. Assuming a patridge post and notch for sights, the goal is to line up the top of the post with the tops of the notch...not just close, but perfectly...within .001" . The same applies to the "light bars" on either side of the post...equal width to within .001". The next goal is to have the post touch the bottom of the bull on a tangent. Not with a hair of white paper visible between post and bull, and not with the top edge of the post barely encroaching into the black bull....but a perfect, single-point intersection of rectangle and circle. If you can maintain that sight picture through the press, that's the ideal and will let you shoot to the maximum potential.

You're correct, of course, about not being able to focus in multiple planes. That's why the focus thing is a sequence of events.

Excellent eyes can focus both front and back sights simultaneously, at least well enough to see the crystal clear sharpness of post top and sides. Lesser eyes can't focus on more than one at a time...front post, rear blade and bull. I get the sights lined up approximately, Bring it to where the fuzzy post seems to barely touch the sharp circle, then shift my focus back and forth between the 3 focal points ... the top edges are the same height? light bars identical? post top touches circle? Going thru the focus switch 2 or 3 times convinces me everything is in alignment and nothing has shifted. Just before and during the press, yes, I focus on the post. One problem with aging eyes is that they don't change focus as fluidly as they once did.

I had always heard the importance of focus on the post and didn't argue it. But it really hits home now that I shoot with 2.0 diopter reading glasses! The sights are as sharp as a razor and a 50 foot bull is quite blurry ( oddly, more so than a 50 yard bull). I handload a lot and can't/won't shoot enough groups when load developing to discern the #1 and # 2 loads at 25 yds. Is 1.0" really better than 1.25"? To pick #1, I'll often go to 50 yds and sometimes 100 yds where, yes, I believe a 4" grouper is a better load than a 6" grouper.

Another subject is what movements one makes when shooting offhand. Sneaking a surprise dryfire into a sequence often reveals an unintentional (and previously unaware) movement caused by anticipation during the trigger press. Recognizing it and practicing to avoid it, such as dry firing with your red dot while trying to keep it immobile, pays dividends in building useful muscle memory.

At the end of your post, you're still on track. But what is your goal in shooting? is 3" not good enough for whatever application you have in mind? For instance, 5 shots in 3" at 50 feet in 3 seconds or less would make you a very competitive steel shooter. The same result with unlimited time would make you non-competitive in other games. If it's just to be the best you can be, I advise again....establish your benchmark from the bench. Aspire to shoot as well offhand as you can from a rest and the process will lead you to improve.

__________________
Carry.."hope" isn't a strategy

Lots to reply to, let's see if I can avoid getting lost.

Wiggle - It's impossible to eliminate it, but I figure I'll eventually reduce the amount of wiggle. Lots of dry firing, sometimes with wrist weights, seems to help with that. By the time I take the weights off, even my 1911 feels like it's made from plastic. Oh, and with my red dot sight, I can actually see my heartbeat.

My current goal has been to place ten shots into a two inch group at 15 yards, from any of three guns - 1911 Les Baer, the Model-41, and the Model-52. I know the guns are capable, and the weak link is me. ...and if I ever reach that goal, I'll want even more. This is all bullseye shooting, but with two hands.

I always use center aim, not 6-o'clock, as I shoot at many different targets at many different distances. I've been shooting at 15 yards for my whole life, but plan to mostly switch to 25, although my range (Hollywood Rifle and Pistol Club) also has provision for 50. I mostly use steel sights, and got a Matchdot II to place on a Clark barrel on my M-41, but I'm stubborn, and I still I think I should be able to shoot the steel sights just as well.

Eyesight - I had cataract surgery in both eyes, so if I'm wearing my shooting glasses, the prescription will be for the distance to the front sight on a 1911. I had a pair made, but the focus is at the wrong distance - so I'm using my progressive lenses, with them giving a crisp clear view of the front sight. I painted a thin white line at the top of the sights, to train my eyes to lock onto the sight. Great for dry firing, and outdoors my eyes do a better job of "fixing" my attention on the front sight. Outdoors I can't see the white paint, just the outline of the sights. Yes, I understand what you meant about the 0.001" accuracy for the sights - I did the math a few days ago, and 0.01" at six inches from my eyes means that at 600 inches (close to 15 yards), the error would be about an inch. So to get a two inch group, I need the sights perfect to +/- 0.01 inch. I'm not sure if I can ever hope to do that.

Focus for me is simple, since my eyes can no longer focus at all, the shooting glasses will force my focus to be on the front sight at all times. That makes it impossible to do what you suggested, switching focus back and forth between sight and target. I am trying to allow my subconscious to center the gun on the blurry target, along with adjusting the sight picture, as I concentrate on the trigger. That's my current goal. At some point I may allow the sub-conscious to take care of the trigger, while I concentrate on the sights. I don't think I can do both simultaneously, unless I am actually thinking about only one of them. It's working surprisingly well.

I also like shooting at a plain piece of white paper, no bull, and I've been amazed that my groups with no bull are as good, or better, than the targets with a bull.

I'll be 74 in December, so I can improve some things, but not all. I dry fire for one or two hours most days, and try to go to the range twice a week. I trust Keith Sanderson about this, and for every "live" shot I should dry fire 100 times. I'm not quite there, but I spend far more time dry-firing than live-firing.

Your ability is amazing. I've found lots of articles and videos on how to get "good", but nothing on how to really fine tune things to be able to do what you've described. I printed out what you wrote, as I want to think about it some more.

Area aiming is the practice of shooting within a given area, in order to achieve better results than what your apparent hold is capable of producing.

In other words, if my "acceptable" hold is the 7-ring of an NRA B-2 at 50 feet, and the sight is within that area and moving normally (not drooping, jittering, etc), then I continue my trigger pull as normal.

It works on the idea that your point of aim is going to trend towards the center of your hold. In other words, the sight spends most of its time in a certain place. Trying to shoot smaller than your hold creates problems--jerking, anticipation, and so on.

In contrast, let's say I have a 7-ring hold, and I try to break the trigger when the sight is over the 10-ring. Because there's a reaction delay between eye, brain, and finger, and the sight is in constant motion, all I am accomplishing is to guarantee that I will not hit the 10-ring. A sign that you're doing this is when you shoot, say, seven 9s and not a single 10.

Where the sights are aiming don't mean a damn thing if you threw the shot, anyway. So trying to have the perfect aim and blowing your trigger pull is pointless. And thrown shots cost you more, score-wise, than poorly-aimed shots.

As to surprise trigger breaks, I always found that idea misplaced. Most people I know that do this sort of thing even casually have thousands of rounds through their pistols. We know when that sear's going to release. It's a clumsy way of grasping at the "uninterrupted trigger pull" concept (which is admittedly very hard to understand until you really experience it). I usually think of it as a "confident" trigger pull, and find it a lot easier to pantomime what people are doing wrong. The more trigger pressure they apply, the slower they go, because they're afraid of not shooting a 10.

I've never found the sport to be about trying to shoot a 10. It's not easy to succeed like that, and it's not fun.

It's easier and more successful (and fun) to focus on the process than the result. You're working from a place of letting yourself shoot 10s, and identifying and eliminating bad behaviors and emotions that keep you from doing that.

Shooting's all transcendental, man.

This is actually a common shooting exercise--having a target can actually be a distraction, and that's what this drill is designed to expose. Try taking a target and flipping it around so only the white back is showing. Then retrieve and score it.

You can also try using the polarizing filter that came with your Matchdot to obscure the target. Dial it up until the bull is only faintly showing, and then shoot.

That said, you're pretty damn good. I don't qualify that statement, it'd be good no matter age, vision, or physical condition.

If your goal is to shoot at 25 yards--do it! You're certainly safe to shoot at that range, won't be shooting up target frames or anything (and who cares if you are--frames are made to be shot once in a while). You're not going to embarrass yourself in front of young whippernsappers that can't get their shots to group at 5 yards, much less 15. Waiting and doubting your own abilities is your obstacle, not technical skill.

I used to wonder about that - I would look at my targets, and find holes all around the X but there was an area around the center with no holes - just surrounded by holes.

After reading Paul Weston's article, and changing to what I understood "area aiming" to be, there seemed to be a uniform spread of shots all around my "group", including over the X in the center. As you (and others in that book) have written, trying to shoot at the perfect moment when the sights are lined up is a simple way to guarantee a miss.

(I imagine that as some people get better, they eventually may get to where their "area" is so small, that for all practical purposes they're aiming at a spot - how else can people shoot at a playing card's edge, and split it in two... Or, write out someone's name using bullet holes. Or put five overlapping holes on a target.)

Sounds the OP is conflicted then. On the one hand he implies he's dissatisfied with his current ability and says he wants to improve but has no idea how he's ever going to get there. Then he says he's "area aiming" which teaches "accept your mediocrity."

And now I hear that striving for better is too stressful. Better to accept mediocre success...it's easier and more "fun" than trying and failing.

Diff'rent strokes, I guess. It's all good, man.

__________________
Carry.."hope" isn't a strategy

I may very well be "conflicted", and even "confused", but according to the article by Paul B. Weston, area aiming will result in higher scores, not "mediocre". Regarding an aiming point, an experienced shooter "may think he is holding on an aiming point because he does not move too far away from it, but move he does, whether he realizes it or not". Anyway, I have no problem with one way or the other being more or less stressful - the bottom line is what works best.

From my personal experience, I get better groups (and scores) when I follow this advice about an aiming area, than when I was aiming at a specific spot on a target.


With steel sights on my M-41, I am not satisfied with my current shooting. It is considerably better when I switch the barrel to my Clark barrel with Matchdot II sight, but I wanted to see if I could shoot the same using steel sights.

I went to the range today and shot with the steel sights at 25 yards. The grouping was larger because of the distance, but not as large as I expected it to be mathematically, for being further away. I plan to go back to the range tomorrow, and do the exact same thing using the other barrel with optics.

(I'm wide open to any new ideas and suggestions, but I've got a lot of respect for most of what's written in The Pistol Shooter's Treasury, even though it is mostly about one handed shooting.)

On my next visit to the range, today or tomorrow, I will try that. I've been shooting for center mass for as long as I can remember. What you describe sounds like something I can do, while still focusing 100% on the front sight. This is in addition to shooting with the Matchdot II. (I'm not sure if I can actually see things as well as you describe, using steel sights.)

Correct. Literally, you're working off the law of averages. Presuming a 7-ring hold, an even distribution across 10 shots would result in an 84 or 85--a pretty solid place to start in a BE match.

But it gets better. If you manage to center your hold pretty well over the 10-ring, then the sights are going to spend more time over that spot. In other words, the distribution isn't evenly split between all the rings the sights touch, it's weighted towards whatever they touch the most.

Once you've achieved that, you start working on improving the ratio. Your hold isn't static--if you sit there and hold the gun for 20 seconds, you'll be wobbling all over by the time you're done. There are two points in most people's hold that are most stable--one happens about half a second as the sight settles onto the black (assuming you're settling from the top-down, as a 1-handed shooter does). Most people actually over-hold and are too slow on the trigger--they shoot a couple seconds later, when another, less-stable MAoM occurs.

If you've ever had the experience, when using the red-dot, of the dot suddenly dancing into the 10-ring and pausing right when the trigger broke--that's what you're going for. I would also point out that applying trigger pressure is integral to those moments. In other words, you start the trigger pull before you're actually ready to take the shot. If you wait to start until the shot looks perfect, by the time the trigger breaks, you'll have missed your chance.

The other trick is identifying when a shot is going to go bad. If you feel yourself slowing or stopping the trigger, getting distracted, blinking unexpectedly, losing focus, or if the hold isn't good. Again--make more good shots by avoiding the bad ones.

Do you have a spotting scope of some sort? It's a lot easier to analyze shots when you've got instant feedback. In fact, I would suggest that once you progress beyond "a bad shot is one I can see in the white, a good shot is one I can't see in the black", a spotting scope becomes essential.

Some of them work at it like a job. They train every day, and practice a few times a week.

The more human shooters who exceed what should be humanly possible are using a "shot process", if you've come across the term.

A shot process--usually written-out--is a comprehensive description of all the steps that go into shooting a 10, from picking up the gun, to putting it down when you're done. Even conditions where a shot should be aborted.

Simply-put, the idea is to do the same thing every time. The same grip, the same trigger pull, the same timing, everything.
If you haven't already, try zeroing the irons for a sub-6 o'clock hold to get the front blade off the bull. Side-to-side, it puts more "white" in the sight picture, and vertically, it makes it easier to see how high the front blade is in relation to the notches.

Again--spotting scope, binoculars, something like that. If your problem isn't fliers, then there's no gross error in technique.

Don't be afraid to change things up, especially speed-wise. On a sub-6 hold, try starting a 2-count as the front blade passes through the 10-ring on the way down to your aiming point--"one-one thousand, two-one-thousand-bang". Alternatively, use a timer, or get an audio recording of NRA Rapid Fire commands, and do a 5-shot string in 10 seconds.

Now analyze the groups. Discard all fliers. Study the most closely-grouped shots, closest to the point of aim. If those groups are smaller than your normal groups--guess you better figure out how to get on the trigger faster, and then figure out why you shot those fliers.

Good slow fire is shot like rapid fire, but one at a time.

Area aiming is about accepting a limitation and overcoming it. Namely, the limitation that the sights are always going to move.

Very, very few people can hold to the 10-ring of a B-2 at 50 feet. After all, that 10-ring is .9 inches across (a US quarter is .955"), but folks hit that thing all the time.

If you focus on the fact that the sights are wobbling all over the black, and then try to "snatch" a shot--you're going to miss. Even if you manage to time the shot perfectly, you're going to wind up jerking the trigger. You'd be lucky to get it in the black at all.

That's okay. You don't need to have a perfect hold to shoot stupidly good scores. You barely even need a good hold. All you need is the fundamentals--trigger, sights, grip, breath control, and follow-through.

A few bits.

You're (intentionally?) misreading "focus on the process, not the results". It's very difficult to reconcile the idea that every shot must be a 10, with good trigger control. If I can't hold to the 10, but insist that I shoot only 10s, then the result is bad technique like a "start-stop-start" trigger pull or shot-snatching or overholding.

I'm literally suggesting that shooting is an act of faith. You have to believe that if you do X, you will get Y result. And when things go wrong and you throw a 6, you've gotta get right up back on that horse and follow the same process the next shot. If you don't do that, then you're taking all your practice and training and throwing it right out the window.

The other thing is mental management. Why do people shoot better in practices than in matches? Because there's no pressure. They're free to focus on their shot processes. So how do we shoot well when it counts? Relax, have fun, focus on the process and routine.

Focusing on outcomes and beating yourself up is toxic. It's self-defeating. By all means, have a goal--achievable short-, medium-, and long-term goals are good:

Long: "I want to improve my slow-fire scores, therefore, I am going to..."
Medium: "...improve my ability to abort bad shots, starting with..."
Short: "...identifying when I am forcing a shot."

Once I stop forcing shots, I move on to "...recognizing a bad trigger pull", or "...identifying a poor hold."

What I don't want to say is, "I'm going to average a 90 in Slow Fire." That's not constructive, and when I don't average a 90, I'm just going to get discouraged. I haven't created a path to success, I've set myself up for failure.

Encyclopedia of Bullseye Pistol

Your "law of averages" theory worked yesterday, with the red dot sight. Holes are scattered randomly, including all over the X, and in my last target a lot of holes covered the X. I'm enjoying shooting at 25 yards - doesn't feel much different than 15. The targets look smaller, but I'm used to shooting a 3" bull, and that's what they "feel like".

I do dry-fire and do holding drills, typically four or five days a week, and typically three or four half hour sessions a day. These drills noticeably improve my ability to hold the gun more steady. But if I miss a few days, that ability goes away somewhat. It used to be better at dry-firing than when I had live ammo, but that's getting minimal as well - what I see in my bedroom is what I see at the range. I think that is the single biggest problem I now have, as the targets I'll post below represent what my red dot was doing as I was shooting. Very few "flyers".

I don't have a spotting scope, but I do have a pair of binoculars I bought for shooting. I definitely am not able to see the holes most of the time without using them, and I refuse to use the "shoot-and-see" targets, as I'm afraid that I will "correct" my aim after every shot. I take 5 shots, then look at the group. A spotting scope would be a big help, now that I think about it again. I need to find one with a "tripod" of some type. Any suggestions?

Question - when you describe a "shot process", carefully doing everything the same way, and writing down every step, is that before each shot, or each time you insert a new magazine? With my 45, I used to load one round per magazine (maybe two every so often) so I was constantly doing what I think you are suggesting, but with the 22 I'm loading 5 rounds. Yes, I'm sure what you wrote will help, as I'm not "certain" that I am holding the gun exactly the same way. Close, but that would explain why some shots (groups) are more likely to be to the left or right, which is clear in my target below.

With the stock Model 41 grips, I'm never sure what to do with my thumbs. I can shoot with either thumb next to the gun, with the other thumb outside. I have ordered a pair of Herrett grips, which are flat, to fix this. I will be talking to Dee on Tuesday morning to decide which of their Model 41 grips would be best - any advice?

Regarding "bad shots", I've been trying to stop, and start the process all over when something feels wrong, but every so often (nerves?) I fire when I wasn't ready. This happens much less often now.

Here's yesterday's targets. I scored most of them, and the points were 96+1X, 98+4X, 97+4X, 98+3X, 96+2X, 99+3X. It sounds good, but it seems to me to be very artificial. For 25 yards I'm doing better, but I'd like to think I can do much better.

Attached Images

sep 2 2017 target.jpg (186.4 KB, 26 views)

Just a quick note - the reason why I have all those white lines, is to calculate the CEP. I can do that for all the shots I fired yesterday, and it will tell me something like "90% of your shots are within a x.xx inch diameter circle.

(detailed description here: Measuring Handgun and Rifle Accuracy )

You're at the hard part--even your "bad" shots are, by objective standards, quite good. I took the liberty of doing a little group-analysis on your picture, attached below. The questions I think you should ask yourself are:

--For shots that landed outside the red circles, what was different? Was my grip looser? Was my finger in a different place? Was my timing different?

--For groups without a red circle, what was different from the other groups? What changed about my grip? Did I stand a different way, tense my hand and arm less or more, etc. Even things like getting tired matters.

Sometimes you'll successfully answer one of those questions. As the groups shrink and the scores climb, the answer gets "smaller" and harder to find. When you do, write it down and incorporate it into your shot process.

Don't go crazy on one. If you can see each shot with the binoculars, just use them, especially if you can do so without breaking your dominant-hand grip.

I've used inexpensive Barska, Burris, and Bushnell scopes myself. There's a noticeable difference with expensive glass, but hey--if you can see the holes, what's the difference? If you decide to pick one up anyway--I would really just continue with the binoculars--an adjustable tripod with telescoping legs is handy. Try and find someone that's got one and give it a whirl.

The big thing is to be "scoping" each shot, however you do it. A lot of the things you figure out are counterintuitive--the idea of shooting faster and holding for less time seems nonsensical, for instance, because we associate precision and accuracy with being careful, and being careful with working slowly.

My shot process begins with how I pick the gun up to start shooting--grip the muzzle with my left hand, place the gun in my right hand, etc etc. But yes--variation in grip and the exact orientation of your finger on the trigger is why groups shift around the target.

Whatever you do, don't try "chasing" them with sight or point-of-aim adjustments.

You can load multiple cartridges and still have a consistent shot process. It's a matter of personal preference. I always load 5 per magazine, but in slow fire (10 shots/10 minutes), I reload the magazine after the fourth shot, so the recoil is as consistent as possible.

But that's just me. Whether or not is matters, doesn't actually matter. If you think it matters--then it does. If you decide that you shoot better if you have a bagel, an egg, and a banana for breakfast, then the confidence alone will allow you to shoot better.
Dunno. It's tough to judge without seeing your hands. The H-41s keep a lot of the contour of the stock grips, and reduce the thumbrest to a slight bulge. The Trainer is much more flat (costs quite a bit more, too).

I usually "stack" my dominant thumb over my off-hand thumb when I use two hands. But mostly, I don't think about it.
It's harder than it sounds. If you're practicing dry-firing at home--abort dry-fire shots. If you dry-fire every time you raise, then when you get to the firing line, you'll do the same thing.

I need to read this a few more times, and think about it. Thanks. I think the system isn't showing the photo you edited? Am I missing something?

Oh, regarding the confidence, "Twinings Pure Camomile Tea" does wonders at calming my nerves, and making me feel much more relaxed. I never believed it would make such a difference!!

I have always had a problem when dry-firing that whatever gun it was started feeling so heavy, my hands eventually started to quiver. This was the cure - wear a pair of these for half the dry firing session, and for the second half the gun feels almost like it's plastic.

I've been noticing that with the "reduced weight" the sights get more and more stable, and the little red dot has gone from seeming drunk, to just wandering around a little, to almost staying put. Almost.

You gave me lots of useful ideas, some of which I was able to improve, and one of which seems to have backfired.

You were right. My group was never "the same" - close though. So, I took your advice of feeding the gun with my left hand into my right hand, and making sure my trigger finger was in the exact same spot on the trigger guard. Doing that seems to have cured that problem.

The spread matched the path my red dot was making as it danced over the target. With more dry firing, sometimes using weights, the dot is now more stable, especially by the third or fourth time I dry or live fire. It is never good the first time I pick the gun up. I know this is improving. My targets for today often looked like a 3" group, with a flyer every so often, and each time I know it's because my hand involuntarily jerked.


I suspect my weakest link is that I am disturbing the shot when I fire. If I fire slowly and smoothly, my nerves seem to disrupt the red dot just before or after I fire. If it's before, I lower the gun and start over. When I fire reasonably quickly, sometimes it works well, and others (I think due to my nerves) my hand "jerks" just as I'm firing. If I concentrate on relaxing, this gets better. You mentioned "timing" as something to keep the same, and not vary. I'm not really sure any more about what my timing should be. I used to concentrate on the trigger, and let my sub-conscience take care of the sights, but now I'm doing the opposite.

I think I need to work on my trigger finger during dry-firing. According to most people, the Model 41 should not be dry-fired, so I use the safety to prevent the gun from firing, as I smoothly apply pressure to the trigger. I no longer think that is useful, as when the gun is fired, the pressure on the trigger finger suddenly seems to be decreased, and if my finger isn't moving straight back, that will disturb the aim. I learned that on my Baer. I guess I need to do the same on this gun, to learn how to do it properly.

The solutions seem to dry-fire it empty as the people at Clark Custom Guns said is perfectly safe as long as the firing pin is not extending too far, or to remove the firing pin for dry-firing, or to buy snap-caps (can't find any), or to use the "dummy rounds" I already bought (which get indented every time the gun dry-fires), or to get the wall anchors so many people talk about as a substitute for snap caps. Or, I could put the Model 41 aside for a while, and start working with my Model 52, which I can dry-fire endlessly with no problems (it has an adjustment that allows dry-firing).


My practice might be stopping for a while - Hurricane Irma seems to be pointed right at me. I might get to the range tomorrow, but by Saturday I'll have other things on my mind.

Thanks again for all the wonderful help!!!!!!!!!!

It didn't. I usually Imgur these sorts of things, but it was originally your image, so I didn't want to throw it into that festering cesspool.



The 41 is a heavy bugger, even by bullseye pistol standards--and it's incredibly muzzle-heavy. A lot of guys like to take the 7" "field" barrel and have it cut down to 5.5", just to shave some weight off. Some will even use both rings of a Matchdot on the front tube, hanging the optic off the rear of the gun.

I use deep breathing to fight fatigue during slow fire in even a 300 (30-round match). A few good deep ones between each shot goes a long way.

Think of it this way: you can't force the timing in actual shooting. You might run 2-second drills as a matter of practice, but it's not the sort of thing that you can just make happen.

What you can do is abort a shot if it takes too long.

Just focus on making an unbroken trigger pull--no stopping, no changes in how quickly the pressure on the trigger builds. For now, forget about the speed, all that matters is not stopping. Either you have a nice, never-slowing, never-stopping trigger pull to completion, or you feel the pressure stop building and you abort the shot. This is the hard part, because the whole time you're doing this, you're distracted by the sight's movement on the target.

Lots of guys (myself included) use a mantra to help. Once you feel that uninterrupted trigger pull a few times, reflect on how it made you feel, or any thoughts that come to mind. Some people associate it with an intangible: confidence, aggression, excellence, or perfection, for instance. They'll build a something like a corporate motivational around that. Other folks relate it to a picture: swinging a baseball bat, hammer, or golf club. The idea is that when you go to shoot, you repeat the mantra or picture the image, and return to that same mindset.

In terms of conscious/unconscious control, I leave both sights and trigger to unconscious control. Consciously, I'm just managing the process--monitoring for aborts, calling shots, and playing the game.
One of the reasons why I went with a Nelson Custom 1911-22 conversion. They're dry-fire safe--the pin doesn't even get close to the chamber before the return spring fully compresses. Free plug for Larry:

Nelson Custom Guns - Nelson Custom GunsNelson Custom Guns | Call Today 480-699-8040

Also, you have a 52, you lucky dog.

Good luck.

Just a few short answers before I go back to Irma preparations. Thanks again, both for answering questions, and mentioning things I never would have thought of!!!

When I click on the link to the image, I get an error message.

I've got a Clark barrel, so it isn't so long, but your suggestion was brilliant!!!!!!!! See photo below. It makes a HUGE difference in how the gun feels! I'm sure that weight was contributing to my fingers "jerking". After making this change, it feels like the gun lost half its weight.

Trigger pull. I'll just take a box of ammo to the range, and try to learn how to do what you suggested. I might use a rest, so any errors will have to be caused by my trigger pull, not the sights. If I get there today (not too likely) I'll try this.

Conscious/un-conscious thoughts - I'll try that too. Just sort of oversee what my body is doing. I thought of just loading one round per magazine, and making every part of the sequence perfect. Some of those ideas have fitted into this concept - when I pick up my gun and feed it into my shooting hand, if I start with my trigger finger hitting the same spot on the trigger guard every time, my hand just wraps itself around the stock exactly the same every time. It leaves just enough room on the left side for the palm of my left hand to clamp down on that stock. Doing everything identically was another idea you brought up earlier, "Shot Process".

M-52... after so many people told me how fantastic it is, and having tried one that my brother bought, I started looking. I posted about this on the Bullseye Forum, and one of the members offered to sell me his. It was practically new. Had all the accessories, tools, and the box. I'm very happy with it. I've been learning how to load ammo for it, using bullets from Terry at Magnus Bullets.

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I may or may not be posting here for a while, something called Irma about to make a very unwelcome visit, going over my head, then right over Hollywood Rifle and Pistol Club, while making sure to damage as much as possible in the state of Florida, and then moving on.

Just to elaborate a wee bit on the previous post:

First, relocating the Matchdot II as you suggested others were doing made a huge difference - the red dot is much more likely to stay put where I want it.

Oh, and I was totally wrong about the dry-firing. While I got consistent at doing it the same way, safety on and just increasing pressure, , I was consistently wrong. I loaded my "dummy rounds" to test this, and ever time I fired the gun moved downwards. After half an hour or so, I ended up with my trigger finger a little higher, and that made it a lot better. Not perfect yet, but better. If my finger is the slightest bit too high/low or even in/out, the gun moves. Well, I know what I need to work on!

Hurricane Irma came and went. I took off on my 4-month trip to India (volunteer work at Aravind Eye Hospital) and returned in February. I bought a Salyer Wad Gun (45), and mostly have been using that and the Model 52, and am at the point where I'll use my own reloaded ammo from now on. Before I ask about the Model 41, shooting with the Salyer (using Dave Salyer's Area Aiming concept) got my scores consistently into the mid 90's. Then, with the M-52, as I got used to it, or vice versa, scores got into the high 90's. I'm about to make another short trip to India, so yesterday I got out the Model 41 again.

The image below is 25 shots at 25 yards, sort of "area aiming", but the area is now very tiny. Your advice, and similar advice from Mike Campbell, was VERY helpful!!!!!!!!!

I took your suggestion, and mounted the red dot sight so the weight is towards the rear. I followed everything you and Mike suggested, and have done a ton of dry firing. I still have the "problem" that my thumbs don't know where to go, but I found a way to grip the gun "mostly" like my 1911 and M-52. I think I may have too much trigger over-travel - will adjust that tomorrow. I guess I can't complain, as most of my hits are 10, with a small number being a 9. The "flyers" are mostly gone. But I want to do better....

I keep thinking that if I find a better way to hold the gun a little more steady, the "wobble zone" will stay in the 10 ring, and not move out to the 9 ring..... but tomorrow I intend to follow your suggestion quoted up above. All I need to do then, is let my subconscious concentrate on alignment and trigger, while I go through the countdown.

.....and I also drew a new target, with (only) the 10-ring and X-ring filled in with black. I'll use the NRA official targets later, but I thought this might help me for now.

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One-handed at 25 yards with iron sights works for me:



Rapid Fire at 25 Yards, Shot at USMC Base Quantico, Indoor 2700, c. 1990.


Stance. Grip. Breath Control. Sight Alignment. Trigger Control. Front Sight, Front Sight, Front Sight, and Follow-Through.

__________________
Five screws and 3-1/2 inches.

Beautiful!!!!

I may never get to do that....
....but I never thought I'd get this far.

One handed too! Awesome!!

Here's the result of going to the range this morning, following your advice.

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Do you shoot targets like that on a routine basis, or is it only once in a while? The group is so small, it's very impressive!