In the January Shooting Illustrated, there is a review of the new Springfield XD-E. It's a TDA 9mm single stack designed for concealed carry.

Sound familiar? It should,

The biggest difference is that the XD is polymer framed, not alloy.

I know the author, Tam Keel, although not especially well. She's very knowledgeable and has mentioned the 3rd Gen guns on her blog in the past.

I also liked this quote,

There's also mention of the P239, which people here have compared to the 3913 in the past.

So, there's a market for TDA single stack 9mm guns. Too bad S&W doesn't see it.

__________________
Can open, worms everywhere.

The XD-E isn't really moving around here. Gun shops have sold a few but that's about it.

The 239 I was kinda interested in until I physically compared it to a CZ P07 and G19 at the gun store. All 3 same size, same thickness and the 239 is heavier. That's when I lost interest in it. Didn't see a need to carry the same thing but heavier and less ammo. At least if it was smaller or lighter or offered some advantage

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

From what I've seen of the P239, it's heavier with a thicker grip than the 3913. It's frame mounted decocker is the only thing that is attractive to me and that's only because S&W never made it in the 39xx compacts.

Depending on price, I'd be tempted to buy a XD-E, provided it ever gets on the MA approved roster. The XDS, which is on the roster goes for around $400.00 plus tax.

__________________
Can open, worms everywhere.

If you're bored one day and have a chance to do it take 3 or 4 different G19 size guns and compare them to the 239. Put them side by side, stack them.... whatever you can do, do! No guns are completely identical but the 239 is right there with the CZ P10C, CZ P07, G19, SW MP compact (new one).

I looked into one because I spotted a nice used one at my LGS for under $400 in 9mm (mostly see 40sw). It didn't feel bad, I was able to get all my fingers around the grip. Grip was a little too thin for my taste but nothing horrible. Noticably heavier of course. The weight kinda put me off a little so I laid it down on the counter, the CZ P07 was right underneath on the top shelf. I was like...wait a minute....it looks like same size. So I asked to see that one, then I asked to see a G19. Sure enough they were all the same size. That's when I lost what interest i still had in it

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

I haven't seen the new Springfield (and won't unless one of the cops I know orders one, as it won't get on the state roster as a new gun). I think Mas did a test of one, though.

The P239? Nice, chunky little single stack. In other words, a single stack that feels like it ought to have a double stack mag.

I came close to ordering one when I took the SIG armorer class several eyars ago, but they wanted too much for them even at the armorer pricing ($649, I think it was?). I just thought it would be interesting to have one to complement my 3913. This was before they'd decided that the then-new SRT could be retrofitted to the 239, which would've made the gun even better (for S&W 3rd gen enthusiasts who like the short trigger recovery in SA, anyway).

One thing for some folks to perhaps bear in mind about the compact 239 is the position of the slide stop lever. Unlike the 3913, it's far back under the base of a right-handed shooter's thumb.

I can think of a guy who carried a P229 on-duty, and bought a P239 for an off-duty weapon. There came a time when he brought the 239 to one of our other armorers, complaining about the slide not locking back on an empty mag. The other SIG armorer (also right-handed) experienced the same thing when test-firing the 239, and called me to look at it.

I test-fired it and the 239 worked normally in my hands (shooting it right-handed). The other armorer was puzzled, so I had him shoot the 239 left-handed. Suddenly, no more failure-to-lock back on an empty mag. I pointed out how I could see the other armorer having his R/thumb pressed against the grip frame just about on top of the slide stop lever when he gripped it R/handed. Bigger hands than me.

My best guess (since I couldn't see and watch the owner shoot it), is that when changing from the larger 229 to the 239, perhaps the owner sometimes gripped the 239 so that his R/thumb rode on, or against, the slide stop lever's tab under recoil, preventing the slide stop lever from being raised by the follower when the mag ran dry.

Dunno, but I expressed my thoughts to the other armorer (who knew the owner), and he said he'd pass them along to the owner. I never heard back about any continuing "problem".

Anyway, the P239 is a fine smallish single stack, and it has the advantage of still being in current production and being chambered in both 9mmP and .40 S&W. I just checked the SIG website and noticed they no longer offer the 239 chambered in 357SIG, though.

__________________
Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Maybe a 3914-E???

Polymer-framed 39xx? TDA?

Dare to dream.

__________________
Because of the metric system?

If you mention polymer and 3rd gen as one you better have your flame suit on! Just a warning!

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Fully aware, but sometimes "close" is better than "none"!

__________________
Because of the metric system?

Some people will definitely get the vapors!

The subject has come up before and it's quickly shot down. If the XD-E does well, maybe S&W will look at it. I doubt it though.

__________________
Can open, worms everywhere.

Well, I just happen to love mine. Sure, it’s single stack, but it just makes carrying spare mags a lot easier. I’ve never found a gun
That fit my hand like the 239. And it’s a dream to shoot.

Attached Images

	3B144DA9-1312-44A8-9ED2-B8F24CD5AE44.jpg (100.7 KB, 116 views)
	C832AD8F-738B-428A-9F9A-00AF84698890.jpg (89.5 KB, 97 views)

__________________
USS Brewton FF1086
SWCA#3597

Would have been interesting if Ruger had made an SA/DA version of the original LC9. Already had a hammer, how hard could it be? If they couldn't be bothered, I'm sure the chances of S&W designing something from scratch are even slimmer.

That XD-E looks interesting. Might just have to put my money where my mouth is and buy something I keep asking for now that somebody made it.

It's interesting, but I don't know if I'll buy one if they become available in MA. In addition to the gun, I'd have to buy a holster, and would probably get an extra magazine. I have plenty of both for my existing 3rd Gens now, so I have no need to add a non 3rd Gen to the mix.

Still...

__________________
Can open, worms everywhere.

I love my 3rd. Gens...That said I have no real problem with so called "soul less" polymer frame firearms. I don't profess to be a collector,accumulator, or any other moniker you want to hang on it. My problem is with the gawdawful feel of a striker. I know the majority of the gun buying public will disagree with me and that's ok because I spend my money to satisfy ME. On range day I have just as much fun rippn' the center out of a target with my HK 45c as I do with my 4506-1 or 4516-2. All my polymer guns have hammers and all are TDA....and I find it interesting that people think a hammer fired TDA in a polymer frame is some kind of new concept by SA.....HK has been doing it for years and with option of about 6 additional variants of a fire control

__________________
witty signature goes here

I work for the largest FFL in the SE doing gun shows. We go to a show with about 90 tables, but I'm specifically in the Springfield section. When the XDe was first introduced, plenty of XDs lovers asked about it. We sold some when they finally became available, but the initial interest has passed. While it's a nice gun, the top end is about 1/4"-3/8" taller to allow room for the hammer. Now it's not so compact when you lay the XDs over the XDe. Basically they came out with the XDe for the old timers who like a hammer, but I still sell more XDs vs the XDe because of the size difference. GARY

Hey! I resemble that remark.

__________________
Can open, worms everywhere.

Let me say I am the oldest gun salesman at our display. Bob is older than me, but he gave up on doing the shows. He used to sell Asps, & Devels back in the day. But he is an awesome smith on any non plastic S&W. He still works at our Ft. Lauderdale store. So I too am a hammer guy, but I do own a few striker fired pistols, including the first ever one. The HK VP70Z. That's right, Glock was not the first. GARY

That horrible trigger was the main reason I sold my VP70Z. It got a lot of attention at the range, and I would let anyone who wanted to shoot it with factory ammo have fun with it. After I sold it, I was never tempted to buy another polymer gun for many years, like 36, when I shot my friend's Canik Tp9, and I bought a TP9V2. It's currently my only striker gun. I have several other polymer hammer guns and greatly prefer them.

Yeah, the trigger requires about 15 lbs of pull, but the gun looks like a ray gun from an old Flash Gordon movie, plus I got a great price with the box, so I still own it. That, a Walther PPS M1, & a P99c is it for the Tupperware crowd. But I have a 645, 4516, 3913, & 469. Funny, back in the day, they were eh, but now seeing what is being made, I appreciate them more. ARY

While I've owned three SIG239's over the years, I've always seemed to find my 3913/14's more ergonomic - purely subjective. Both fine pistols. While I own several different compact 9mm pistols, the 3rd GEN S&W guns have certainly captured my kudos as being "just right". I seem to like Commander sized 1911's, too - when there's other probably more practical designs to consider. Again - just my subjective feelings. That said, when I saw the first XD-E articles, my heart rate crept up a bit. Something about that pistol sure grabbed my interest. I doubt it will measure up to my SIG 320 in trigger, ergonomics and accuracy, but I sure like the idea of a hammer on my pistol.

I'd vote for NEITHER...

The Star Firestars in 9mm both beat the pants off of either offering
The Single-stack M43 is a phenominal little pistol, the metal frame offsets
the recoil nicely, and is a teensy little package.



The Double-stack M243 uses the same slide, with a slightly fatter frame,
also great for guys with big hands, which is why I sold my M43 & got a M243
The 243 also uses S&W 5900 series mags, so there's that

__________________
Marlin & Calico Specialist

The day I rely on Spanish guns will be the day....well..... never

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

I too wish S&W would come out with a polymer framed 3913. Kahr seems to have done it when they made polymer versions of the K series.

I've had e few Sig P239s and liked them very much. I prefer the weight to lighter guns in general. The grip profile fits my small hands well but has a bit of an odd feel, different from the rest of the Sig profile. I shot it pretty well too. I have all 3rd gens now for carry (3953, 6946 & 3953s) as does my wife. Just fits even more perfect. Only Sigs left are the P6 (German 225) and P226. Also not mentioned is the Sig polymer series 2002. Also fits and shoots well with a hammer TDA action. I did handle an XDE, which I did not like as the trigger reach was longer than I like. I've had a number of XD's and liked them too. But will not be getting the new XDE. I find it funny how we keep coming back to previous designs like the single stack TDA for example. I guess we are rediscovering stuff, again.

I think XD made that just to have a small foot in the other door. I don't think there's a whole rediscovery of single stack TDA

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

The market will tell us (and Springfield) if there is still some demand for TDA single stack guns. The only thing that I'd likely change on the XDE would be to include an option for a spurless hammer.

I might have to email Springfield and see if they have a plan to try to get MA certification for the XDE. The XDS in 9mm and 45ACP were recently added and prices are pretty decent.

__________________
Can open, worms everywhere.

There's always some demand. If there wasn't this discussion wouldn't exist. And since XD is a Croatian gun IMPORTED by Springfield their overhead is different and they may well be able to afford to make a small amount of guns for a specific market

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Here's my theory: Springfield is just being realistic about the market.

Let's say you wanted a striker-fired pistol, 9mm, compact-to-subcompact. The question then becomes: Why would you not buy a Glock 19 or 26, Smith and Wesson M&P or Shield, an H&K VP9, or a Sig P320? No matter what your particular brand of fanboy, the overwhelming majority of shooters (and gunstore salesmen) already have a dyed-in-the-wool favorite.

The only way to compete is to go after the people who don't want to buy any of those guns: a very large portion of shooters and CCWers who, however correctly or incorrectly, don't trust "semi-cocked" striker-fired mechanisms or pistols without an exposed hammer.

This isn't a small market, either. A lot of people I talk to just aren't comfortable with those sorts of pistols, and it's a lot easier to offer them what they want than to try and change their minds. Typically, their eyes just light up the first time they see a 39-series S&W.

So--Springfield is choosing not to compete with giants, but rather, to corner an underserved market.

And frankly, if it shoots half as well as the XD--which looks like it should be miserable, given the grip-to-bore, but somehow isn't--then they've got an excellent pistol to sell.

PS--I was skeptical of Tamara Keel, but she's quite good for a gun'writer.

Of course there's a market. I don't think it's a big one but no doubt it's there. Just like there's still a market for SAA and BP revolvers

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

I don't know her terribly well, but met her at the NRA Annual Meetings when they were in Indy. We have a mutual friend that we are both quite close to. His byline is going to appear in (I think) American Hunter soon.

She knows pistols extremely well. I know she used to work in a gun shop, and think that she works in a different one now. She knows guns quite well.

__________________
Can open, worms everywhere.

As for myself, I avoid pistols built by vodka-swilling Croatians for $40 each
and imported into the US by shysters who boost the price by 10 times what they paid for it

Which reminds me, watch out for Sig's too

__________________
Marlin & Calico Specialist

I do too although it gas nothing to do with Vodka ...or more corr Slivovitz.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

I remember the Firestar......... looks great...nice size...felt great in the hand ..But .... weights in at about +2 pounds lbs.....

A solid little hunk of stainless steel!!!!!!

The Sig 239........ nice gun, nice size...... but in person a chunky/bloated 39xx

I love my Beretta 92 Compact Type-M..... single stack ......but it's bigger than a Model 39...... 8+1 but a full 4.25" Barrel and slide.



in the end the 3913/14/NLs beat them all

Oh, I think it's there. How many guys do we know that would never carry a striker? Between here and on an actual range, there's a few I can think of.

Now--how many of those guys aren't already in love with Sigs, and don't rage against polymer frames? There's the market.

In any case, I think Springfield will have a much easier time differentiating themselves from Sig Sauer than trying to beat S&W and Glock, who operate closer to SA's plastic pistol price range.

Oh, she certainly knows her stuff. And she writes well, her articles have a certain logical flow to them. I also quite like her "voice"--she remains relatable without adopting the "Neanderthal" persona a lot of gun writers fall into (which I don't like, because it's indicative of what they think of me).

And now, damn you, I just started reading her blog.

About the only thing she needs to do...is write an article saying an in-production gun is bad. Then she'll be perfect.

Funny you mentioned that. Meet the new Springfield 911



Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

The unmitigated gall! Although, seriously, it's a slick little thing for the price point. I sort've wish they'd have used a swappable thumb safety instead of an ambi (but the market wants ambis). And I think that the "911" branding might be a bit iffy in front of a jury.

But it is, for all purposes, a smaller version of their excellent EMP for significantly less than the EMP's $850-$1050 street price. And that's not a bad thing. I think in a pistol like that, most people would be better-served with the .380 than the 9mm.

My only beef with it is the capacity--6/7+1. But that's mostly because my state has a 10-shot limit, so my impulse is always that a gun should be either super-tiny-rinky-dinky pocket-size, have a 10-round magazine, or be a J-frame.

All that said (more than I intended, sorry) Springfield manages to bring more new guns to market than Taurus, and fewer whacky ones. Good for them.

I stumbled onto a small review of it the other day unintentionally and your phrase reminded me of it

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Funny, I have 100+ year old guns from Eibar that work like the day they were made. I used to have some 50 year old ones too but my son glommed on to them. :-)

I mean, its not like they were made in Cocoa...

__________________
Certified Curmudgeon

It's curious how MA folks always seem to want the guns they can't easily get (because "roster" and/or crazy AG lady)... but then when those guns finally become available, few folks actually run out and buy one. They just switch their desires to a different gun they can't have... rinse and repeat! The Springfield plastics are a perfect example of this.

And Lord knows I'm as guilty as the next MA guy. Look at my collection spreadsheet and you'll see that not being able to buy one so easily tends to make the guns more desirable and always more valuable... until they become available and then the price crashes!

Back in the "good old days" when I was still open to plastic, I wanted a Springfield compact plastic wonder gun so badly I could taste it. I hated that my friends and family in free states could buy them... all they wanted... without any big effort beyond the pricetag and a 4473 form. But now that they are legal for dealer sale in MA and in all the gun shops, I have no interest whatsoever. My preferred dealer offered to pull a couple out just to show me what I couldn't previously buy... and I told him don't even bother.

Go figure. Human nature, I guess.

I have one too. Made right after WW2. Technically it shoots but I don't trust it for more than an occasional box of ammo at the range. I certainly wouldn't use it for practice and carry at which point it becomes just something that takes up space

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Simple. People want what they can't have. GARY.

And in loony moonbat Massachusetts, that's a whole lot of handguns and a whole lot of post-ban hi-cap (i.e., standard capacity) magazines... and now virtually all AR & AK receiver-based MSR's since 7/20/2016. Just today, I found a gun in the classified that I would love to own... but it's "no dice" for MA. And as another member recently pointed out, we can't even buy an S&W Victory .22 here yet.

I often wonder what life would be like living in a free state. How do you decide what to buy when you have so many options?

"Let's say you wanted a striker-fired pistol, 9mm, compact-to-subcompact. The question then becomes: Why would you not buy a Glock 19 or 26, Smith and Wesson M&P or Shield, an H&K VP9, or a Sig P320? "

Because I shot 3 of those and opted for a Ruger LC9S Pro. It's 5-10 ounces lighter weight, with a 5 lb trigger, no thumb safety or mag disconnect. The finest non-single action trigger I've ever used, 2" groups at 50 feet, 820 rounds w/o a malfunction ... another 2-300 and I may actually carry it occasionally as a primary.

__________________
Carry.."hope" isn't a strategy

All those pistols come without safeties or mag disconnects

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

I used to despise the magazine disconnect in all its forms, until I realized a bunch of guns weren't made for me, they were made for people that have to wrestle, arrest, and transport violent offenders. And in that context, a magazine disconnect can make a lot of sense.

But on a CCW? Eww. Stop putting additional things on my gun that can go wrong, Ruger.

Also, I was mostly just referring to the very crowded 10-15 round compact-to-subcompact market.

It feels like...

Being an American!!!

John

Where the SIG 239 excels is in strength. Remember the site thegunzone which had an page about an exploded P239 that basically was put back together and did not injure the owner when it kaboomed?

That sold me on the strength of the P239. The fact the magazines DON'T strip 9mm rounds off like the 3913's and K9s do is a plus.

I agree it is a top heavy thin gripped little thing that is a lot heavier than you think but it is solid and durable. Personally I think they are a lot more durable than the 3913's and after hard use show their age better.

Guess I'll just keep on carrying my old 3953.
Gratuitous image:

__________________
-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

FWIW, apparently the word is that SIG Sauer has decided to discontinue the P239 during 2018.

Perhaps they've decided that having TWO single stack, metal-framed compacts (239 & 225) of such similar size (and same barrel length) isn't supported by market demand.

Of course, now with the release of the P365, who would want to pay more money for a larger "compact" type pistol that holds less rounds? Deja vu, right?

For the seemingly continually decreasing market interest in .40/357 chambered in a small compact, there's always the P320 compact.

__________________
Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

When you look at history, you need to remember what was going on at the time.

When the P239 debuted, it was a hot ticket. It was one of the few guns available that you could CCW easily that was chambered for a "real" caliber. Its' popularity was driven by the increasing wave of states that were allowing CCW. Was and is a fine weapon

Today is a different time...