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Old 02-02-2018, 11:17 PM
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Smile A Tale of Two Model 4506-1 pistols...

Actually, it's more like a story about 4 or 5 of them, but two recent ones in particular stand out as an interesting contrast in price, condition and "extras"!

A little background:
In most cases, a reasonably nice, not too "used & abused" Model 4506-1 goes for anywhere from about $549 to $699, almost always with one or two magazines... sometimes with its original factory box, sometimes not. One high traffic dealer near Beantown manages to get $699 every time. Others get a little less.

My (failed) quest for an R4: I lost a really nice "R4" I found for $549 (tagged price) when the out-of-state dealer gave me a very difficult time (read: impossible time) about shipping it into Massachusetts. That was a tough loss. Later, I found the same "R4" version gun in MA for $639 (tagged price), but the condition was not up to the "TTSH standard" for that price + tax and so I passed.

Now on to my point: Two others (not R4's) showed up very recently: The one I mentioned at the gun show with the weird sanded slide for $550 w/1 mag no box and another one tonight at my closest dealer, otherwise identical to the above, for $499 with... get this... 17 factory magazines!!!

Too bad for me, the shop owner failed to call me even though we've done loads of business in the past and he knows very well that I collect 3rd Gens. Instead, he sold it to someone else. It wasn't even picked up yet. Man, is my luck bad or what? But think of that: 17 magazines are probably worth close to $499 all by themselves! I could have owned that gun for free!!! I would have just had to pay for the magazines!

Anyway, quite an amazing pricing contrast. $550 for a damaged one with 1 mag vs. an undamaged one with 17 mags for $499. Which one would you choose?

One last point: The single action triggers on many (most?) of these 4506-1 pistols I've found recently have not been great... and it seems to be something a bit worse and a little different than the usual dreaded "trigger click" (a.k.a., trigger play spring issue) like on my 4566TSW pistols. It's starting to concern me in my quest... so a question for the 3rd Gen gunsmithing Gurus: What is likely to be causing that rough, gritty take-up (i.e., beyond the trigger play spring issue) and should I be concerned? Thanks!

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Old 02-02-2018, 11:46 PM
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When you say gritty, do you mean double action or single action?

John
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Old 02-03-2018, 08:19 AM
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When you say gritty, do you mean double action or single action?

John
Single action take-up. Same sensation as your typical trigger play spring issue only noticeably rough and gritty. I noticed this on both the second "R4" I found (I don't recall it being present on the first one) and on the $499 4506-1 with the 17 mags (said to be a retired cop gun BTW). I couldn't try the trigger on the sanded slide gun show 4506-1 because they wire tie all those guns.

I don't have the problem on my 4506 (no dash). I do have the trigger play spring issue with my two 4566TSW pistols... one being worse than the other... but not the grittiness on either gun.

I'm starting to wonder if I should just be satisfied with my 4506 (no dash) and forget about my quest for a 4506-1, R4 or otherwise. If this is an issue I can easily rectify, then no big deal. If it's something more than that, I'll want to think twice about bidding one on GB or picking one up with that issue.

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Old 02-03-2018, 10:45 AM
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Interesting observation. I donít think I have noticed anything gritty in single action (SA) on many 3rd Gens I have shot. I have felt this on double action pull but not SA. SA has typically been very crisp and a clean break and that oh so sweet distinguishable reset.

I have a later model 4506-1 that originally shipped to the LAPD revolver and athletic club and have not experienced this feeling. At least I donít recall. I am curious now, and will have to check later (unloaded).
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Old 02-03-2018, 11:36 AM
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I think the draconian laws regarding guns, where you live, is your biggest problem. Consider relocating to a more gun friendly state, like KS.
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Old 02-03-2018, 12:53 PM
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As a subject of the People's Soviet Republic of Massachusetts, you have too much interest in firearms. Perhaps you should take up knitting or listening to public radio in conformity with the culture? Just kidding, the 4506 is my favorite 45 ACP handgun. I like my factory trigger and would not call it gritty - but no one would call me picky on triggers. 17 magazines would be nice. but when it comes down to it, one is enough to start with. It seems the gun is much harder to get where you are anyway. Good luck and happy shooting!
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Old 02-03-2018, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by 03Fatboy View Post
I am curious now, and will have to check later (unloaded).
Actually, I should do the same... maybe tomorrow (way too busy today). It's not like I had the guns side-by-side trying to compare them. They just felt odd to me and certainly not desirable. Maybe I've just forgotten how bad my own 4566TSW pistols are in that regard... but those two pistols mentioned certainly wouldn't be acceptable to me that way. However, for the money, that one with 17 magazines included for $499+Tx would still be a no-brainer.
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Old 02-03-2018, 01:24 PM
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I think the draconian laws regarding guns, where you live, is your biggest problem. Consider relocating to a more gun friendly state, like KS.
... or like practically anywhere else!

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Originally Posted by HOUSTON RICK View Post
As a subject of the People's Soviet Republic of Massachusetts, you have too much interest in firearms. Perhaps you should take up knitting or listening to public radio in conformity with the culture? Just kidding, the 4506 is my favorite 45 ACP handgun. I like my factory trigger and would not call it gritty - but no one would call me picky on triggers. 17 magazines would be nice. but when it comes down to it, one is enough to start with. It seems the gun is much harder to get where you are anyway. Good luck and happy shooting!
Actually, this has been a relative bonanza of 4506/4506-1 pistols showing up for sale in my area at less than a king's ransom (i.e., $699+Tx w/1 mag). Too bad that I missed out on the one with 17 magazines included. I don't think I'll ever forgive that dealer for not putting it aside and phoning me.
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Old 02-03-2018, 02:55 PM
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The only 3rd Gen I've has had that is my 457 (the first one). I fixed that by adjusting it with a pencil eraser. None of my 9 mm guns have ever done that.
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Old 02-03-2018, 02:58 PM
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It's on our road map, but for reasons I won't bore you with, we can't move now. Both of our kids, and grand kids live in the south, so that's where we want to be. Better gun laws are part of it as well.


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I think the draconian laws regarding guns, where you live, is your biggest problem. Consider relocating to a more gun friendly state, like KS.
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Old 02-03-2018, 03:47 PM
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Gritty triggers usually fall under a few particular issues.

1. Factory failed to clean out the manufacturing shavings properly.
not unusual to find metal shavings in your trigger assembly area...

2. It was not properly fitted/polished at the factory.
(Friday afternoon runaway/Monday Morning Hangover pistol)

3. Prior owner/owners failed to clean it properly.
Literally can find almost ANYTHING in there...sand/grit/small bugs...

All are resolved by pulling it apart & inspecting...cleaning, polishing where needed,
lube, then reassemble.

What else are ya gonna do during the Super Bowl??
Got all that free time to play with my guns, ain't gonna waste it
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Old 02-03-2018, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by TTSH View Post
Single action take-up. Same sensation as your typical trigger play spring issue only noticeably rough and gritty.
Have to "raise the hood" and get in there to figure out the cause.
It's typically simple fix, just takes time to rummage around in there and find out what's rubbing on what then file, stone, or polish as needed.

Given your description, I'd suspect the the drawbar plunger & spring and the chief culprit. The plunger can be rough and/or lack a tapered end and sort of grind/rub across the spring coils. Likewise the spring coils can be hitching at the opening of the spring recess in the frame.

Secondly the drawbar itself may be rubbing on the frame interior somewhere. Inspect for any burrs or flashing on the frame. On the drawbar, the side flats and top edges may be stoned if needed. Pro-tip You can color the drawbar with dykem or a blue sharpie then reassemble. Cycle the trigger a bunch and anwhere the color is missing shows you where unauthorized rubbing has occurred

Cheers
Bill
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Old 02-03-2018, 06:07 PM
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When the hammer is cocked in single action, nothing is moving except the trigger, and its movement should be restricted by the trigger play spring.
Bend, break, or remove the trigger play spring and the trigger will flop back-and-forth, but nothing else will move.

The drawbar, plunger, and spring will be stationary.
The trigger hooks will be lightly rubbing on their notches in the drawbar and the trigger and its pin will be rotating in the frame.

There's not much going on when the hammer is cocked and the trigger has not yet moved the drawbar.

Pull off the slide and take a look.
You should be able to see what's happening.

And for pete's sake, replace that trigger play spring (it's a simple repair) and quit bending them.

John
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Old 02-03-2018, 06:34 PM
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Umm...
Assuming the trigger play spring is in perfect condition....
With the hammer at full cock... Taking up the trigger slack to the second stage wall, the trigger pulls the drawbar forward approximately one tenth to one eights inch and lifts the disconnector as just as you reach the wall. Any further travel releases the sear. Not my intent to be disagreeable

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Old 02-04-2018, 12:06 AM
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Didn't find your post disagreeable in the slightest, Bill!

But the OP did say the trigger play springs were defective.

I was referring to movement of the loose trigger like on the CHP 4006s without a trigger play spring.
The trigger movement back and forth, before the drawbar begins to move.
It would be easy to tell if that's where the roughness is.

If it is after the drawbar begins to move and before the sear is released, it could be any of the usual suspects i.e. drawbar, plunger, or spring rubbing on the frame, magazine, or spring tunnel.

However, if these pistols have forged hammers, it could be the rough area on the hammer so graphically illustrated in the post by armorer951 in this thread:

5904 Gritty, gritty trigger. Where to start?

John

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Old 02-04-2018, 09:01 AM
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What else are ya gonna do during the Super Bowl?? Got all that free time to play with my guns, ain't gonna waste it
LOL!!! The good wife is having me make dear old Dad's special recipe Chili in time for the S-Bowl tonight. It is quite amazing stuff. I still hope to have time to pull out my .45 3rd Gens and at least see if what I was feeling was just the usual trigger play spring problem vs. something else.
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Old 02-04-2018, 09:13 AM
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Have to "raise the hood" and get in there to figure out the cause.
It's typically simple fix, just takes time to rummage around in there and find out what's rubbing on what then file, stone, or polish as needed.

Given your description, I'd suspect the the drawbar plunger & spring and the chief culprit. The plunger can be rough and/or lack a tapered end and sort of grind/rub across the spring coils. Likewise the spring coils can be hitching at the opening of the spring recess in the frame.

Secondly the drawbar itself may be rubbing on the frame interior somewhere. Inspect for any burrs or flashing on the frame. On the drawbar, the side flats and top edges may be stoned if needed. Pro-tip You can color the drawbar with dykem or a blue sharpie then reassemble. Cycle the trigger a bunch and anywhere the color is missing shows you where unauthorized rubbing has occurred

Cheers
Bill
Thanks very much Bill. Of course, I can't "raise the hood" on those guns that I didn't or couldn't buy (one was already sold awaiting pickup at the time), but I get your meaning. It's really a concern for the future and it helps a lot to know the possibilities (in terms of cause) and the potential for a reasonably quick & easy fix if I run into that issue again. If I am ever back up at the place that had that second "R4", I'll ask if I can field strip it. Not sure if they will allow it, but I won't know unless I ask.
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Old 02-04-2018, 09:26 AM
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And for pete's sake, replace that trigger play spring (it's a simple repair) and quit bending them.
Oh, it's on my list!
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But the OP did say the trigger play springs were defective.
Just to clarify, I never said the trigger play springs were bad on the two 4506-1 pistols with the unusually gritty triggers (although the probability that they are bad is something greater than 98%).

It's my own two 4566TSW pistols that I was referring to... and yes, those #%@&$% springs are begging to be replaced. Like I said... it's on my "Someday To Do" list.
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Old 04-10-2018, 08:23 PM
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I know that when I shoot my 4506 and 4506-1 together, there does seem to be a weird crunchy feeling to the -1 trigger that the 4506 does not exibit. I greatly prefer the no-dash gun.
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Old 04-11-2018, 09:53 AM
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I know that when I shoot my 4506 and 4506-1 together, there does seem to be a weird crunchy feeling to the -1 trigger that the 4506 does not exhibit. I greatly prefer the no-dash gun.
Just as a quick follow-up... and I hope I didn't mention this elsewhere already... I found yet another Model 4506-1 locally. It was agency marked so I wasn't really interested in buying it after I saw that. It had the usual, dreaded trigger click issue... but no unusual grittiness as I had described above.

"Upgrading" from my Model 4506 (no dash) to a Model 4506-1 is no longer a high priority for me. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, no big deal. Given current crazy political realities, especially in my anti-2A state, my limited funds are better spent elsewhere for now.
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Old 04-11-2018, 11:20 AM
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Given current crazy political realities, especially in my anti-2A state, my limited funds are better spent elsewhere for now.
You mean like renting a moving van?

John
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Old 04-11-2018, 11:26 AM
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What is a 4506 R4?
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Old 04-11-2018, 12:36 PM
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Mike: 4506-1 (R4) "dash 3"
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Old 04-11-2018, 02:29 PM
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You mean like renting a moving van?

John
I wish. The problem is: Where do I go that I won't be facing the very same anti-2A craziness in 1... 2... 3 years? Vermont just fell. Here in New England, Maine will probably be the next to go followed eventually by NH.

No, I'm going to stay right here and fight. Just got to rethink the acquisition and disposal plans to best deal with the insanity.
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Old 04-12-2018, 03:32 AM
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I feel for you, TTSH.
I really do.

Folks like you, with deep familial roots in the soil where the Tree of Liberty first took root, was nourished by the blood of Patriots and tyrants, and grew to be a mighty beacon of Freedom, must now watch it wither as that same soil is poisoned by the incessant droppings of overcrowded sheep.

You got a tough row to hoe, Brother.
Godspeed.

John
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Old 04-12-2018, 09:32 AM
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Just as a quick follow-up... and I hope I didn't mention this elsewhere already... I found yet another Model 4506-1 locally. It was agency marked so I wasn't really interested in buying it after I saw that. It had the usual, dreaded trigger click issue... but no unusual grittiness as I had described above.

"Upgrading" from my Model 4506 (no dash) to a Model 4506-1 is no longer a high priority for me. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, no big deal. Given current crazy political realities, especially in my anti-2A state, my limited funds are better spent elsewhere for now.
The 4506 is lighter on the belt too, if that is important to you.
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Old 04-12-2018, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by smithman View Post
The 4506 is lighter on the belt too, if that is important to you.
Not so much. I was just really impressed with the R4 I found down in Little Rhody. It was primo. But the stubborn (my nice word) shop owner would not ship it into MA. Not totally unusual, but very disappointing nonetheless.

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You got a tough row to hoe, Brother.
Godspeed.

John
The worst part is asking ourselves what the heck comes next? Just when you think it can't get any worse... it does. Thank God I am old and probably won't have to put up with the insanity much longer. And like I've said before: I'm just glad that dear old dad is not around any longer to see how bad it has gotten.
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Old 04-13-2018, 06:20 PM
SOTVEN SOTVEN is offline
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"Upgrading" from my Model 4506 (no dash) to a Model 4506-1 is no longer a high priority for me. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, no big deal.

I own both, and never saw any upgrade to the -1. (unless you mean the Novak fixed sights over the oem fixed sights.) It is clear to me that less machining is involved with the -1 slide and frame than the no dash. And I do not buy the "it had to be strengthened" b.s. Strengthen what? The stainless hand held naval gun? to shoot a mere 45 ACP?? and how, by adding weight to the dust cover, waaaay in front of the frame stress points? Sorry, I am not buying this. Less machining= less expensive to manufacture. Also, the square trigger guard went with the -1, and that was pure evil in my book. Everyone's millage may vary, but if I were given the choice, no dash for ever.
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Old 04-13-2018, 07:25 PM
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TTSH TTSH is offline
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I own both, and never saw any upgrade to the -1. (unless you mean the Novak fixed sights over the oem fixed sights.) It is clear to me that less machining is involved with the -1 slide and frame than the no dash. And I do not buy the "it had to be strengthened" b.s. Strengthen what? The stainless hand held naval gun? to shoot a mere 45 ACP?? and how, by adding weight to the dust cover, waaaay in front of the frame stress points? Sorry, I am not buying this. Less machining= less expensive to manufacture. Also, the square trigger guard went with the -1, and that was pure evil in my book. Everyone's millage may vary, but if I were given the choice, no dash for ever.
You hit the nail on the head: I prefer the Novak sights and the round trigger guard.

Still, mine (below) is a pretty handsome gun for its age.
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Old 04-14-2018, 10:24 AM
SOTVEN SOTVEN is offline
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You hit the nail on the head: I prefer the Novak sights and the round trigger guard.

Still, mine (below) is a pretty handsome gun for its age.
That, my friend, is the one I call my favorite!! Square trigger guard, blade fixed rear sight and curved back strap. Mine is a TDA prefix. Unknown year of manufacture, but I would suspect 1990. I had bought it used, with the original cardboard box, wax paper and 2 magazines. Enjoy yours!!
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Old 04-14-2018, 06:23 PM
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That, my friend, is the one I call my favorite!! Square trigger guard, blade fixed rear sight and curved back strap. Mine is a TDA prefix. Unknown year of manufacture, but I would suspect 1990. I had bought it used, with the original cardboard box, wax paper and 2 magazines. Enjoy yours!!
Well, mine is a TCF-prefix 4506, built in late-1988. I am the third owner (that I am aware of).

Interesting note: When I bought the 4506, it came with a second adjustable sights slide and barrel. I was told that the original owner had long ago bought the AS slide & barrel, but never actually used it. The second owner (the gentleman who sold it to me) never used it either. I was warned that it may not be of the same vintage/revision and to have it checked out by a gunsmith before trying to use it. I never bothered.

I know that JohnHL and probably others could solve that mystery in about 2 seconds, but I'm not a funky wings adjustable sights fan. I'm just fine with the fixed sights, even if not Novaks.
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Old 04-15-2018, 02:19 PM
SOTVEN SOTVEN is offline
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Well, mine is a TCF-prefix 4506, built in late-1988. I am the third owner (that I am aware of).

Interesting note: When I bought the 4506, it came with a second adjustable sights slide and barrel. I was told that the original owner had long ago bought the AS slide & barrel, but never actually used it. The second owner (the gentleman who sold it to me) never used it either. I was warned that it may not be of the same vintage/revision and to have it checked out by a gunsmith before trying to use it. I never bothered.

I know that JohnHL and probably others could solve that mystery in about 2 seconds, but I'm not a funky wings adjustable sights fan. I'm just fine with the fixed sights, even if not Novaks.
since mine is a TDA, and it looks just like yours, I would assume that within this prefix range, there were not any cosmetic differences. (If it is safe to assume that S&W worked its prefixes in this ascending order) Also, very interestingly, my 5904 is TCF prefix!!! Do you suppose it is a late 1988 too? Were they running the same prefix along all models/calibers?? as for the spare slide/barrel, hold on to it friend!! Much better investment than money!!!
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Old 04-15-2018, 03:39 PM
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since mine is a TDA, and it looks just like yours, I would assume that within this prefix range, there were not any cosmetic differences. (If it is safe to assume that S&W worked its prefixes in this ascending order) Also, very interestingly, my 5904 is TCF prefix!!! Do you suppose it is a late 1988 too? Were they running the same prefix along all models/calibers?? as for the spare slide/barrel, hold on to it friend!! Much better investment than money!!!
You can see from the "Spec. Ord." in the photo that my 4506 was built during the last workweek of December 1988 between Christmas and New Years Eve. As usual, the best way to check your date if you don't have the factory box is to call S&W CS and ask. They are always very nice about it.

My first thought had been to sell the spare AS slide and barrel in order to recover some of what I had spent on the gun... but at the time, I found a couple others for sale and the asking prices for them told me that it didn't make much sense to sell.

Now, it's just buried in the back of one of my safes... patiently waiting for the right time to be sold.
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Old 04-15-2018, 10:46 PM
mscampbell2734 mscampbell2734 is offline
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I own both, and never saw any upgrade to the -1. (unless you mean the Novak fixed sights over the oem fixed sights.) It is clear to me that less machining is involved with the -1 slide and frame than the no dash. And I do not buy the "it had to be strengthened" b.s. Strengthen what? The stainless hand held naval gun? to shoot a mere 45 ACP?? and how, by adding weight to the dust cover, waaaay in front of the frame stress points? Sorry, I am not buying this. Less machining= less expensive to manufacture. Also, the square trigger guard went with the -1, and that was pure evil in my book. Everyone's millage may vary, but if I were given the choice, no dash for ever.
Its always been my understanding the switch to the -1 was largely to integrate the 10 mm slide/frame contours and make the large frame guns one standard set of parts. That explains the greater weight of the -1, to help control the 10 mm recoil
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