Being a huge fan of the 10mm 3rd Gen Semi Autos produced by S&W, I am curious which police departments still carry, or allow the carriage of any of the 10mm S&W Pistols. I know the FBI briefly used them in the mid 90's, and the Virginia State Police used the 1026 for a few years. Just think it'd be interesting to find out if anyone still carries them.

The Virgina SP and the Kentucky SP both had variations of the 3rd gen S&W 10mm. I can’t recall any city or county however.

They have been out of production for many years, so aside from agencies with a very permissive individual officer policy (and no department armorer support) I suspect no one allows them to be carried on duty.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Any agency that would consider a pistol in 10 mm is carrying .357 Sig . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I can understand them carrying a 357 for sure stopping power but they should be carrying a S&W 357 instead in my opinion. Just me but I like them much better.

And if one looks at a good quality objective analysis such as the work done by Doc Roberts, the .357Sig is simply not worth the additional cost in ammo, wear and tear, flash, etc. over a quality 9mm round. I say that owning a Glock 33 that is the pistol I carry the most.

The only 10mm S&W with which I am familiar was the 1076; while it was decent ergonomically for me (I'm left handed and the Sig style de-cocker was way better than the slide mounted abominations), we had a lot of trouble with them. IIRC, the FBI did too. The round itself was not all that different ballistically from the 185 grain 45ACP, and also not worth the cost increase. The pistol had to be big and strong enough to handle the full power 10mm loads, so it was really only suitable for uniform carry. I heard a lot of folklore about FBI agents not carrying them as they should due to the size, which is shameful. Fire the first few and the rest will get over that garbage.

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NHI, 10-8.

Well, here's why Texas Dept of Highway Safety went to .357SIG...
They had a trucker high on drugs go ballistic, crashing cars up & down I-10,
and NONE of the 9mm or .45acp bullets penetrated through the truck's cab metal.
NONE. They couldn't get thru a standard Semi-truck's Door or Cab.
That's a problem...especially in Texas....or any other Major Highway State...
which, really is ALL of 'em.

So, they went to .357SIG about 10 years ago.
Also got more officers with 5.56 AR's

The average gun owner will probably never have to shoot into a semi.
The average cop MIGHT...and neither 9mm nor .45acp will cut it for Big Rigs.
A cop shooting at a semi with either 9mm or .45acp is simply wasting ammo & time,
as they can't even penetrate a semi's TIRE...

We do know that 10mm & .357SIG will cut thru 'em like butter...
Texas tested the heck out of 'em trying to make up their minds...went with .357SIG

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Marlin & Calico Specialist

Can you please post a cite for his info?

Thx

Here's the most recent I can find...
Texas DPS Ditches S&W M&P Handguns Over Reliability Issues - The Truth About Guns

Watched the semi chase on America's Wildest Police Chases about 15 years ago...
It's around somewhere...
About 3 months after that the Texas DPS made their announcement for 357SIG, and why.
If someone digs enough, they can find that too.

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Marlin & Calico Specialist

Is the Secret Service still using .357SIG, or did Obama take away their fangs??

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Marlin & Calico Specialist

I have yet to see one, but supposedly there are a lot of 5FN 5.7 pistols in the Secret Service man al of arms. Otherwise, all the guys working counterfeit and other details that I see have P229’s in 357.

All I know is that Texas DPS switched to .357 Sig in the mid 90's, before anyone had really heard of it . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Muss,

Nothing in that article about the semi shooting and failure to penetrate.

Internet rumors abound when the story appeals to those with an agenda.

My guess is that the .357 Sig, an answer to a question no one asked, is not long for the handgun world. It has far too many detriments to be beneficial.

I'd much prefer 180 grain .40 S&W rounds. I'd much prefer 147 grain 9MM rounds.

As we both know, there is no such thing as a tactical handgun manstopper. Manstopper was pulp fiction for neophytes.

Last I heard, the SS was using Sig P229 .40 S&W.

It has access to the FBI's Firearms Training Unit.

Hi Big Shrek,

Two things:

1. There's nothing in that linked article to support your claim of lack of penetration of other rounds.

2. Media is hearsay and as such cannot be used to prove truth of anything. It much more wise to go to the source.

The Texas Rangers are a division of Texas DPS. The standard handgun of the Rangers is the 1911, unless that's changed.

Most agencies issue a handgun and cartridge; however, they'll allow its cops to carry handguns and cartridges from an approved list. For instance, purportedly the FBI has adopted the 9MM. I've yet to confirm this. If it is true, I have no clue why. However, its cops can carry any gun and cartridge combo from an approved list. My guess is that less than half of its cops will go with the agency issued handgun.

Here's my guess: the 10MM will continue to trend downward in popularity. For law enforcement work, .40 caliber handguns demonstrate optimum efficacy when firing 180 grain bullets at ~1000 FPS. Above that velocity is diminishing returns.

The 10MM in a 1911-A1 handgun would be an excellent trail handgun where the meanest critter would be a black bear.

It reality, velocity differential between .40 S&W and 10MM is insignificant. I can hand load 200 grain bullets in .40 S&W cases to just under 1100 FPS:
Handgun reloading - Vihtavuori That would make the P229 .40 S&W and excellent trail gun. A black bear guide told me that he has personally witnessed his hunters easily kill blackies with .40 S&W handguns.

Don't quote me on this because it's definitively hearsay: Jeff Cooper was a driving force behind the 10MM. After years of trying to justify its raison d'etre, he reverted to the 1911-A1 .45 ACP.

The .40 S&W and .45 ACP will be around long after people will ask, "didn't there used to be a 10MM or something like that?"

The FBI and other Federal agencies still have firearms chambered for The 10MM Auto Cartridge in the inventory. Over 1400 of these SMGs were purchased and are just now going out for a replacement RFP
Just not many 3rd Gen Smith and Wessons left in the Federal inventory

Back in 93-94 I was working in Dallas County and the Texas DPS was just getting into the P229 chambered for 357SIG.

Those that worked the highways were very thankful for a cartridge that would out perform the 9MM Parrabellum chambered duty weapons of the day on car doors and windsheilds

Later on DPS added the P239 to the inventory.

Texas DPS guns are easy to spot since they have an identification number on the slide that begins with 405-
I can not recall who, but one of the Texas Rangers carried the SIG P229 Sport in 357SIG. It looked great with custom grips and that SIG Sport shoots so incredibly accurate.

It's been pretty close to 20 years since I had opportunities to shoot with some FBI agents. The MP5N that they had was a hoot to shoot. One of the few times I felt I was getting my money's worth out of my federal tax dollars.

As I recall, back then they were transitioning from a 9mm Sig to .40 Glock. They were also getting M4 Carbines, which were supposed to replace the MP5Ns.

The Texas DPS information is interesting. I'd say it's surprising that a large LE agency would go to a new cartridge based on a one off incident, but then again the FBI made major changes after the Miami shoot out.

I wonder how often, nationwide, LE has a situation where they have to shoot at large vehicles?

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Can open, worms everywhere.

The Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS) trooper (Sergeant, I think) who used to teach and maybe still does teach the Instructor's class for License to Carry folks always carried a SIG in .357 SIG and was proud to tell any of us who asked.

As a 16 yr veteran truck driver in Texas, I'd like to see actual news article or some other reputable info supporting this claim. Last time I checked, pretty much all OTR tractors have fiberglass hood/fenders and aluminum doors and cabs. The aluminum doors on my 1993 freightliner FLD were at best 2" thick and duct tape could have held them on better than the "door hinges" it came with.

That says a lot for a older Freightliner to still be on the road after all of those years. I suspect it will still be running for many more years as well.They are very solid just like older S&W handguns.

Came from actually being around back then...actually finding any info on it now
is rather difficult...it was a white semi, they chased it west on I-10 for a long time,
There was some cool helicopter vid of the chase & end...but remembering some
random skell's name from that long ago is beyond me

The chase ended after they trapped the truck at a small bridge, it hit a bunch of cars and
ended up in the middle of the median, where it stopped. Don't remember the name on
the Semi or Trailer, either...long time ago.

Do remember the Texas DPS Officer that was brought in to speak on a variety
of LEO subjects for class and when they asked him why they changed to .357SIG,
his answer was that a shootout when trying to stop a semi was why they switched,
because of the ineffectiveness of the 9mm & .45acp rounds versus the semi.
Don't remember his name because he was a dude and not a hot chick...
priorities, ya know

There's more than likely someone from Texas DPS around that time that
will remember the chase, shootout, and switch-over to .357 & why...
the trick will be finding them...

Honestly didn't think it'd be too hard to find the video footage...but it and
another vid I've been searching for seem to have long dissappeared...
but sooner or later, they've got to turn up. Just takes time...
after all, once it's on Camera, it's got to be Somewhere on the 'Net...

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Marlin & Calico Specialist

Thing about old Freightshaker's is that they take quite a beating over the years,
we've got a few 89-95 Freightliner trucks where I work, but they're the most
ragged-out trucks being held together sometimes literally with ratchet straps...
If it weren't for our genius mechanics, they'd probably have been taken to the
Junkyard by now


Did a quick check at the Box O' Truth, they've never done a Big Rig...
can't seem to find any info on pistol bullets vs big rig's, either...
Hrm...might have to go grab a couple semi-truck doors and do it myself

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Marlin & Calico Specialist

THAT is the guy we need on here
Or at least, get a vid of him talking about why they adopted .357SIG!

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Marlin & Calico Specialist

Auburn Hills, MI carried the 1076 for a while. The 1076 I picked up in '11 lettered to being shipped there. It has an AHPD engraving on the underside of the frame in front of the trigger guard.

BTW, my 1076 came with palm swell grips, fixed night sights, and no magazine disconnect (but without the warning label typically found on 1076s equipped that way).

I'm not sure about the 10mm going away. Sig brought out the P220 in 10mm last year and affordable ammo at proper power levels. Springfield is on record about bringing out an XD in 10mm as well. And all the traditional players of the last 10-15 years are still making their 10mm models.

Ammo cost can be an issue if you don't handload, but Underwood does a good job of offering full power loads that don't break the bank, but no, it's nowhere as cheap as what you can find for 9mm and .40.

Texas DPS went to the .357 Sig in 1998 after dumping the then FBI-doctrine designed heavy weight, slow velocity, small hollow point cavity Black Talon in 9mm at 147 gr. and .45 ACP at 230 gr. carried in a Sig P226 or Sig P220, which was chosen at the individual Trooper's discretion during Academy firearms training. BTW, the Black Talon name was later changed to Ranger SXT by Winchester for PR reasons.

The logic behind DPS' switch was that in multiple shootings, the FBI mentality that was behind those heavy round's design was that they should be 'super penetrators' and should drill deep, go slow and open very gradually. They did this so well they went through and through on more than one occasion. I have been apprised of one case where the .45 Black Talon when through and through an axe-wielding subject's torso, bounced off a pickup truck door and landed in gravel. It so successfully penetrated and failed to expand that it could have been reloaded into a new brass shell. Not optimal.

DPS responded by going back to what had worked for many, many, many years for them; a light weight, warp speed round that had a larger HP cavity and opened *fast* in a target. Originally, this was the 125 gr. SJHP .357 Magnum loaded by either Federal or Winchester and carried in a S&W m28 Highway Patrolman. Since Sig had just come out with the .357 Sig round in 1994, it was an easy switch.

DPS standardized the .357 Sig in P226's across the board as the official round, for all Troopers, Aircraft, Narcotics, Special Crimes, Motor Vehicle Theft and even the Rangers. BTW, in the modern era the 1911 has never been the official handgun of the Rangers. They get the same weapon as all other commissioned officers. However, they can carry personally owned 1911's if they are checked for function and safety by a Firearms Instructor, it meets approved caliber requirements and they can qualify with it. Many do, as it's rather cachet in the Rangers to carry a 1911, but they don't get them issued.

Results of the switchover? The .357 Sig worked as spectacularly as the FBI-doctrine rounds failed. The .357 Sig was a darned good stopper then and is still is today. Anyone who thinks it's a 'failure' or 'obsolete', or is an 'answer to an unasked question' is either:

1. Simply uneducated on the real world application and results of the round.

2. A fanatical devotee to another caliber and feels others have to be wrong for them to be right.

.3. A myopic disciple of the FBI's doctrine of what makes a great gunfighting pistol round. You know, since the FBI is engages in gunfights with pistols all the time and are experts at gunfighting, because they do it so often, so much more than city or state police officers that actually face felony assaults every day of the year. That FBI, the one consumed and driven by politics and never, ever admits when it's wrong. Yeah, that FBI.

Back on topic, I get that some folks don't care for the .357 Sig because it's very loud, has a real blast to it, generates a noticeable flip in recoil and isn't the cheapest round in the world. Fair enough. But don't confuse 'preference' with 'results'.

While it's true that any handgun bullet has the potential to stop an attacker and put a man down (even ol' Wild Bill Hickok's .36-caliber lead ball did that effectively), we know that using a handgun successfully is guided by:

1. The accuracy of the shooter under stress.

2. The shooter's ability to deliver repeated and rapidly fired rounds on target.

3. Having skill in all phases of handling one's weapon of choice, including shooting, reloading and malfunction clearing.

If a person meets all this criteria on a very high level, I imagine they'd be dangerous with a S&W Model 51 in .22 Magnum. If we become proficient on the above three, then we can talk caliber and load.

Having said that, I think DPS was on to something by ditching the FBI's doctrine (forged in the fires of their political butt covering post-Miami 1986, because hey, 'We can't be to blame, must have been that Silvertip 9mm, yeah, that's the ticket!'), and going to a doctrine that actually HAD worked for nearly 30 years. They went back to what was historically successful on the street and simply put it into a pistol instead of a revolver, as best could be done. Hence the .357 Sig.

So, if a detractor wants to fault some of the negatives of the round, it's fair to do so. But just because some pet theory currently preaches that the FBI is suddenly the Oracle of Delphi regarding all things gunfight related, and their 9mm designs can now defy all laws of physics, Sir Isaac Newton himself and can now outperform all .45's, .40's, .38 Supers, .357 Sigs and even Capt. Kirk's Type II Phaser, it doesn't mean that theory is perfect or totally correct.

But even if newer 9mm's are a lot better than they were in 1998, it doesn't mean that the other cartridges suddenly became obsolete overnight and are junk. If that theory held water, then suddenly getting shot today by Hickok's .36 caliber Colt shouldn't hurt or kill you, simply because it's 2018 and not 1865.

I know many officers and CHL carriers that still believe that Sig's hot little round is a highly competent and effective self defense round and is the closest thing to a 13 round .357 Magnum you can carry, and are willing to accept the trade off of being loud, having notable recoil and being a bit on the spendy side. But hey, when it's their keester on the line, I'm betting things like "I saved 15% on my carry ammo by switching to 9mm!" don't really occur to them when their house is getting broken into at 3:00 AM or they're getting carjacked or shot at. Maybe, but I doubt it.

Full disclosure: I carry .357 Sig mostly, 9mm at times and on occasion when running to the store down the street and back, perhaps a Sig P230 in .380 ACP or a S&W 640 in .38 Special. As most folks do, I accept the tradeoffs that come with certain calibers. But I usually carry the .357 Sig because, all things being equal, it's got the shove to it that I prefer.

Glock also introduced a long slide Model 40 in 10 mm with hunters in mind last year and late in the year Ruger introduced a 1911 in 10mm. So it's not dead yet.

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So many S&W's, so few funds!!

We, Abilene Tx P.D., were authorized to carry S&W 1086 back in the 80s right after the FBI went to the 10mm. The 1086 was never issued, but was authorized for individual purchase. They were laser engraved with our patch and Abilene Police Dept on the slide. I loved mine and carried it many years; it is still authorized. I can only think of 1 SGT that still carrys one. And I think he is the only 10mm, although the round is still authorized as well.

After a back injury, I had to lighten the load. I went to a Glock 33 (357 Sig) and got rid of all my old leather gear & stainless cuffs.

I have used my old 10 to harvest a wild hog that weighed about 185 lbs.

Nice looking set of 239’s ya got there

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USS Brewton FF1086
SWCA#3597

I guarantee you that your test shots will zip right thru those doors like paper.

I think the secret to my older Freightliners longevity was the simplicity of it's construction. Sure the 430hp series 60 detroit diesel & straight 9 speed rockwell transmission may have had something to do with it. My example had documented over 1 million miles with just a top end overhaul. It was just 1 piece fiberglass hood and fenders, and a aluminum cab sitting on top of a tank. Mercifully it had a air ride drivers chair. During that time I only had 1 turbocharger pop on me. Other than that it was....."bulletproof"

Makes me wonder how thick the steel is on old Pete's & Kenworth's...
I remember old Mack Firetruck doors were heavy as heck...70's were kind

Regular car doors will get penetration through them, but then the bullets fail
to penetrate the other side, usually. At least 9mm & .45acp seem to stay inside
the car's cabin, as the Box O' Truth has shown on occasion.

Someone was telling me of a truck graveyard where lots of trucks had been dumped
so that they could rust to death...if it's still there, that would be the perfect
place to test a variety of old trucks.

Wouldn't surprise me a bit if older trucks had thick steel & interior panels that
would cause things to flatten out enough to stop 'em. There's also the question of Angle...
would 45-degree angle shots deflect more??

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Marlin & Calico Specialist

The East Baton Rouge Parish Sheriff's Office started to issue the 10mm Smith & Wesson around the same time the FBI did. The sheriff at the time, Elmer Litchfield, was a former FBI agent and seemed to follow the FBI game plan in many matters. Now they seem to have been all phased out by the Glock in either 9x19 or .40 S&W. It is interesting to note that the old Smith Model 64 has outlasted those third generation autos, as many of the non patrol deputies still carry those .38 Specials.

Ballistic performance from 25 years ago it not really a valid indicator of how rounds perform today with more modern bullet designs, and shooting at vehicles with a pistol is not sound. Even then, my academy had been teaching slugs as the default round for shotgun for several years, and because the AR platform and 5.56x45 were not as well developed, they also advocated rounds like 30-30 for patrol rifles. Now, the M4 platform with an 11.5" barrel, suppressor and modern ammo is a good performer on vehicles.

Is the .357Sig a bad round? Nope. My primary carry pistol is a G33. Is the juice worth the squeeze compared to modern ammo in 9mm? Not really. The real variable is training, and the ability to put rounds where they need to be on a human. 9mm is far cheaper and easier to shoot well, with no measurable difference in performance.

10mm? If I spent a lot of time in the woods, a G20 would be a great platform. The 1076 was simply not "all that"; they broke, and broke a lot. Mine had been a spare, and had maybe 600 rounds through it when the extractor failed. The 4566s were not all that great, either.

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NHI, 10-8.

I daily carry a Sig 357 but practice with 9mms or even my 40.

When it comes to carry the 357 Sig is on my side. It is a great gun

I can tell you here in CT 10mm is not "trending down". 10mm introduced by Ruger, Sig, Springfield Armory, the Glock G40, Dan Wesson RZ -10 are flying off the shelves. Cabelas has 10 different types of factory ammo, some for $22 a box. Sellier & Bellot can be had for $15 a box of 50, and its a hot accurate round.
Maybe for law enforcement due to budget and training issues, but i am hearing and seeing civilian shooters, new, old and in between flocking to the 10mm.
And it makes sense, its accurate and you can now get the full range of power levels without even reloading.
Trending up i think.

We were issued the 1006 starting in early 1992, we replaced them in 2006 due to an inability to get ammo. NO ONE would sign multi year, multi 100,000 round contracts. We started out with full power ammo, in the later years had to go to FBI spec ammo as it was all that was available by contract. BTW, I was the on-shift firearms instructor.

Now then, impressions: trigger reach in DA was the same as an N frame revolver, we had extraction issues until they changed extractor springs (and extractor?), long range reach was impressive, but the sidearm was a backup weapon, so not that relevant. Folks with small hands, short fingers and short torsos had issues, largely due to trigger reach. Folks with slight build would have issues. In other words, I strongly doubt the round/firearm is an issue item anywhere.

We replaced it with a much superior combat handgun: the M&P series.

This is completely inaccurate. The difference between .357sig and 9mm is significant and measurable. .357 at 604 ft. pds. is almost double the 9mm's 364 ft. pds. comparing Underwood's similar hollow points' muzzle energy. If you are speaking to terminal performance then maybe I can agree they are closer.

With a gun like the P320, one can easily swap between 9mm for 500 rounds of practice and .357 for 50 rounds of extra practice and then carry.

I haven't tasted the 9mm koolaid; I don't buy into the idea that it's equal to .45acp or .357 and it's certainly not 10mm. It's much better than it used to be, but by no means equal. Don't overlook that bullets in all calibers have improved in parallel with 9mm. I admit that in most cases it is 'good enough' but I prefer more than the minimum requirement of good enough when my or my family's life is on the line.

Speaking as a private citizen- not as a civilian police officer or soldier.

Go take a look at the information available from Doc Roberts - the actual difference in objective testing is minimal and not at all worth the cost.

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NHI, 10-8.

It is preferrable to not have to shoot into the passenger compartment of semi's or cars...
but the reality of life is that sometimes you get ****** crazies that are willing to kill people
by running their trucks & cars into crowds. It happens fairly regularly worldwide.

How effective is your given pistol on cars, SUV's, semi's, and even fire trucks may
very soon become something that concerns us all, Leo's, retired LEO's, and CC'rs.
Definitely has become a major concern in Europe...been a concern in Israel for 50 years.
Just a matter of time before it becomes commonplace here if we keep letting "Refugees" in
without being able to thoroughly vet them before entry.

Will your 9mm be able to take out a terrorist or nutcase in a Commercial Vehicle or not??
We KNOW that .357 & 10mm will easily penetrate Commercial Vehicles of all types.
We know that .38 & 9mm have both been deflected by windshields.

Is the average LEO carrying both JHP and ball ammo??
Have they trained to switch over to ball for CV intercepts??
How many mags of each do they have on hand and in their vehicle??
Do they practice intercept driving versus regular cars/trucks/suv's and CV's??

Does every CC'rs think about the same things??
Because they can get caught in the middle of the squish just as quickly as anyone else.

One can't have all the answers for everything, but each person can formulate a plan
for each eventuality...if A, then B. If not B, then C.
10mm & .357-SIG answer a lot of questions with a Heck Yes response.

9mm tends to give Meh answers to everything but Overpenetration

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Marlin & Calico Specialist

The internet is full of gurus with opinions as varied as those here in the forum.

The only measurable performance indicator is energy. I want as much of an advantage as I can get, should it ever come to me going to guns (God forbid).

Do you have some links to follow? All I can find is the archived site he contributed to and a few random posts on firearms forums and blogs. Nothing I've clicked so far even references 10mm results. And the archived site is mostly links to info from the 90's and older.

Ballistics and Projectile Performance | Lightfighter Tactical Forum

(That forum is set to not show up in search engines IIRC, so you would be less than likely to find it.)

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NHI, 10-8.

I have had some range malfunctions with 10 mm on my 1076 and I am sure since the gun is the same across the 10xx range I would be a little concerned that this would do it in the field. I can guarantee you will not see a feed error on the Sig 357 especial when in SAS form.

I have several 1076's and a few thousand rounds down range. I have not had any malfunctions with any of these guns..

I carried a S&W 1076 while an FBI Agent in New York from 1996 to 1999. I also was issued an MP10 as we called them from 1996 to 2000. Both fantastic guns. I expect I was the second to last Agent in the FBI to be issued a 1076. I was as issued a Sig P228 9mm out of New Agent Training. While in NY I became friends with the primary Firearms instructor. He informed me he had the last two 1076s to be issued. I jumped at the chance and turned in my P228. The instructor informed me this was one of the ones that had been returned to S&W and had been worked over by the Performance Shop before being returned to the FBI. I shot many thousands of rounds through it (5000+ as a guess) with zero malfunctions. The MP10 was sweet too! I could put a ragged hole with 20 rounds at 50 yards.

I turned in the 1076 for a Glock 23 40 cal after a few years for various reasons. None of those reasons seem good in retrospect.

Additionally we were shown a video in new Agent Training that showed a car being shot with various Bureau issued weapons (.38, .357, 9 mm, 10mm, .45, .223, 12 ga buckshot and 12 ga slug. There was a simulated person crouched down in the footwell. It is as a cardboard cutout. There were zero hits on the cardboard except for 12 gauge slugs. Hundreds and hundreds of rounds shot of all calibers and angles.

My take away was that don’t count on any round penetrating a vehicle except a 12 gauge slug. Of course this was not an all inclusive test but it as very enlightening.

That would be Mas Ayoob. He goes into that in the Gun Digest Book of Sig Sauer. He also mentions in the book that Highway Patrol agencies have liked the .357SIG when it comes to barrier penetration.

He also tells the story again in this article here:

Massad Ayoob Reconsiders The .357 SIG | American Cop Magazine

Long story short, it's the best bang for the buck if you have to do a lot of shooting barriers, but for average police use, it's not enough better than 9mm or .40 for the cost. I wouldn't mind seeing some data from 9mm major power factor. I think some of the Underwood 9mm +p+ that tnoutdoors9 tested was impressive in 147gr, pretty good in 124gr, and terrible in 115gr (overexpanded at 10" and stopped).