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Old 04-06-2018, 12:50 PM
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Default 1911's - How stiff are these things supposed to be?

I am not a first time newbie to the 1911, having owned and worked on several, but I got to ask: what is up with S&W's version? To rack the slide on my PC 1911 requires 23lbs of force (that's not a guesstimate, I measured it), and that's with the hammer already cocked! I thought it would loosen up after shooting a bit but such has not been the case. My experience with Colts and Kimbers run almost half that amount. Oddly enough, it functions fine and I must say is the most accurate 45 I've ever shot. But I'm going to have to start lifting weights to be able to rack the darn thing!
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Old 04-06-2018, 01:18 PM
Andy Lowry Andy Lowry is offline
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Sounds like it has an extra-strong recoil spring in there. The standard 1911 spring is 16 pounds.
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Old 04-06-2018, 01:41 PM
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Give it 500 rounds.

I have one and it was tight at first. Few thousand rounds and it’s butter. Well...factory butter not custom OMG that’s smooth butter.

It is one of my favorites and dead on accurate.
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Old 04-06-2018, 01:42 PM
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I was just reading on another forum asking this question. The factory responded with 16lb - 22lb. With the lightning cuts I would suspect it needs more than 16lb.
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Old 04-06-2018, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by bigggbbruce View Post
I was just reading on another forum asking this question. The factory responded with 16lb - 22lb. With the lightning cuts I would suspect it needs more than 16lb.
22lbs sounds pretty darn close. I'll feed it some more rounds and see if that helps.
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Old 04-06-2018, 02:57 PM
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22lbs sounds pretty darn close. I'll feed it some more rounds and see if that helps.
If it's just a shooter and you reload, drop a 16lb in it and tune your loads to drop within 6 ft.

As my springs get weaker so do my loads..
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Old 04-06-2018, 06:45 PM
sar4937 sar4937 is offline
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While it is possible that internal drag is factoring in, clean the pistol and install a wolff spring of the standard poundage.
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Old 04-06-2018, 07:24 PM
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While it is possible that internal drag is factoring in, clean the pistol and install a wolff spring of the standard poundage.

It's clean, and I removed the oil I used last time I cleaned it and replaced it with Brian Enos' Slide Glide (Regular) and it did help, but only a pound's worth according to my scale. Next time I shoot and clean, I'll try the light version of Slide Glide.
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Old 04-06-2018, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy Lowry View Post
Sounds like it has an extra-strong recoil spring in there. The standard 1911 spring is 16 pounds.

16.5 pounds for an Ed Brown full size 1911. I use a 18 pound spring in my Ed Brown full size 1911. I only shoot Winchester Military Grade 230 grade FMJ. 900 fps.

My Commander size Ed Brown I use the 20 pound recoil spring for the same reason as above. It's heavy and hard to rack the slide as I've had major surgery on both shoulders.

You could change the recoil spring. I would recommend trying a 18 pound recoil spring from Ed Brown.

Recoil Springs | Ed Brown Products, Inc.

Frankly the full size 1911 is easier to rack the slide than the commander size.

I agree I think you have a 22 pound spring. I doubt you need that. Try the 18 pound spring. I think if you go to 16 or 16.5 it will be too light.

Let us know what you go with and how it works out.

Last edited by zzclancy; 04-06-2018 at 07:44 PM. Reason: Add and spelling.
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Old 04-06-2018, 07:37 PM
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I use Slide Glide on my race gun. I have a problem with Slide Glide because it does not break down with gun scrubbing chemicals. That said, the heavy Slide Glide outside this time of year is too much. In winter in Nebraska, I use light weight oil. Late summer the heavy Slide Glide works. I think you probably are sprung wrong. Just get a standard spring and start there. You can leave the spring out and cycle the action, it should not bind.
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Old 04-07-2018, 08:17 AM
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Is this a new pistol or purchased as a used firearm? Lots of people still seem to think that extra heavy recoil springs solve problems like frame battering and failure to feed or somehow reduce felt recoil. If it was a used pistol, someone may have swapped in a heavy recoil spring for whatever reason.

For a government model 1911-A1 (not a lightened slide), 16 pounds is the standard weight. If the firing pin stop is a 1911 type (flat bottom, not the large radius of the 1911-A1 type), then you can drop the recoil spring rate down another 1 or 2 pounds.
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Old 04-07-2018, 08:30 AM
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The OP's experience mirrors my own. After a week's stay in the hospital two years ago I couldn't manage the slide at all, even with the hammer cocked.

That's behind me now but it's still stiff. I've decided to live with it in the hopes that it'll protect from battering the aluminum frame.
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Old 04-07-2018, 08:40 AM
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The more accurate a 1911 platform is, the stiffer it gets to operate.

The older one gets, the harder it gets to operate anything.

Sad but true.
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Old 04-07-2018, 08:41 AM
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[QUOTE=Tom S.;139991347 But I'm going to have to start lifting weights to be able to rack the darn thing![/QUOTE]

The older you get, the better it gets. You ain't seen nothing yet. You have a lot to look forward too. Larry
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Old 04-07-2018, 09:05 AM
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Default 1911 spring

I know your talking S&W 1911 but, when I got my
circa 2009 brand new Ruger 1911 full size, I could
barely work the action.

Went to a Gun Smith, he sold me a 16-18 pound
spring. Wow, what a easy difference in pulling
the Slide back. Very enjoyable to shoot now.

I shoot a moderate reloaded 230gr lead plated bullets
so no worries about damaging it.
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File Type: jpg 45ACP230grberry.jpg (4.5 KB, 492 views)
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Old 04-07-2018, 10:56 AM
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When I received my Les Baer Premier II I could not move the slide at all. Everyone at PPC that morning tried with no luck. One young guy could move it and got it open. He was 5'8" and 230 pounds and built, not fat.

What I learned was that if I put my right thumb on the grip safety and my fingers on the top of the slide I could squeeze it open.

Les Baer recommends that you shoot 500 full power factory loads through it before contacting the office about function problems. I did just what they recommended and it worked fine. I shoot 4.4/4.5 grains of HP38, Federal primers, 180 grain Bayou BNWC bullets. Accurate and soft recoil.

One comment about my LB. Excellent does not begin to give it justice. I contacted the office once about some ridiculous operator error on my part and explained it to the person that answered the phone. Within fifteen minutes Les called me back and explained exactly what to do. The guy was like a long lost buddy. Great guy.
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Old 04-07-2018, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stansdds View Post
Is this a new pistol or purchased as a used firearm? Lots of people still seem to think that extra heavy recoil springs solve problems like frame battering and failure to feed or somehow reduce felt recoil. If it was a used pistol, someone may have swapped in a heavy recoil spring for whatever reason.

For a government model 1911-A1 (not a lightened slide), 16 pounds is the standard weight. If the firing pin stop is a 1911 type (flat bottom, not the large radius of the 1911-A1 type), then you can drop the recoil spring rate down another 1 or 2 pounds.
Brand new. I'm thinking of going with a 16lb and a buffer.
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Old 04-07-2018, 03:42 PM
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Reassemble the pistol without the spring, it should cycle smoothly. If it's still stiff the barrel link is too longer, or some other fitment issue. Look for rubbing parts.
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Old 04-07-2018, 05:03 PM
stansdds stansdds is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom S. View Post
Brand new. I'm thinking of going with a 16lb and a buffer.
I used to run buffers, but these days, unless it's hot ammo or 10mm, I don't. The buffer shortens the distance the slide cycles and that can induce extraction and/or feed problems.
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Old 04-07-2018, 06:04 PM
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Brand new. I'm thinking of going with a 16lb and a buffer.
Buffers, in a 1911, are a good solution for a non existing problem.
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Old 04-07-2018, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lbm View Post
When I received my Les Baer Premier II I could not move the slide at all. Everyone at PPC that morning tried with no luck. One young guy could move it and got it open. He was 5'8" and 230 pounds and built, not fat.
*
Baer's pistols are known for that. They are fit TIGHT and have to be shot a bunch (I'm surprised only 500 rounds) to be easier to rack, etc.

I think the suggestion to remove the spring and cycle the pistol is a good one, as that will give a better indication of the source of the stiffness. Take a look at what Hilton Yam provides for info on understanding the 1911 at both 10-8performance.com and modernserviceweapons.com. You will find the guidance to be very detailed and first rate. I had a 1911 he built and it was first rate, but I eventually could not justify the cash I had invested in it and sold it to another cop.
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Old 04-07-2018, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu View Post
Buffers, in a 1911, are a good solution for a non existing problem.
When I put a buffer in my 1911 I had to use the slide release instead of slingshoting the slide when the slide locked back. I tossed the buffers along with the full length recoil spring guide.
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Old 04-07-2018, 09:15 PM
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I’d stay with the factory supplied spring unless you intend mainly to shoot lighter loads. If you do go lighter, I wouldn’t go less than 18 pounds. (I’m assuming your gun is a Commander-length model.)

As to buffers, I have seen guns that won’t run properly without one. You could probably fool around with them long enough and figure out why. In my experience that is more common with Commanders than in full length guns. It doesn’t hurt anything to try a buffer and see what happens. Some guns will chew them up quickly. I’d keep a close eye on it until you are satisfied with how your gun reacts to using the buffer.
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Old 04-07-2018, 09:34 PM
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I think you have a very tight 1911 hence very accurate, and as a previous poster said possibly a stronger than normal recoil spring.
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Old 04-07-2018, 09:47 PM
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There's simply no excuse for a gun to be tight. It doesn't translate to accuracy in any meaningful way. Accuracy comes from a consistent lock-up, and a lock-up that lasts until the bullet leaves the muzzle. You can get both of those things without a gun being hard to manipulate.

Anyways, different kinds of slide/rail fitting result in different levels of tightness. I won't knock Les Baers, except to say that while they're certainly very nice guns, their trademark NIB tightness is not the patina of some kind of magic.

Tom--Depending on your loads, a lighter recoil spring is certainly in the cards. Ditto for mainsprings, if you want to monkey around with that. If you go too light, you risk battering the slide and frame. Before you go swapping mainsprings, I might also suggest that wearing eye protection is smart, and having a bench vise and brass punches comes in handy.

Respectfully, you might also consider looking at some new slide-racking techniques. Support hand over the top, gun hand on the grip, using a push-pull motion with the muzzle downrange is helpful. Similarly, gripping the rear serrations and butt as normal, extending your arms, and using your shoulders to push-pull works for a lot of people.
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Old 04-07-2018, 09:58 PM
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On some 1911's the barrel is fit up tightly to the bushing and will cause the issue you describe. One of my LB guns is still crazy tight after a couple thousand rounds. I agree with others, run a 16 pound spring and don't use a shok buff. Best wishes.
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Old 04-08-2018, 10:11 AM
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I ordered a 16lb Wilson spring and a pack of buffers. I know the buffers are controversial but I've never seen any conclusive proof the hurt anything, and they are cheap.

To answer sar4937, the gun is smooth w/o the spring and there are no indications of binding.
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Old 08-17-2018, 09:34 AM
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"Weaker" springs are available!
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Old 08-17-2018, 09:45 AM
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Just send it to me, problem solved.
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Old 08-17-2018, 09:50 AM
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When I bought my first better 1911 the debate was between Wilson and Baer.

The Baer was considerably cheaper and the LGS was closing them out. It looked also a bit cooler because of the bench made quality it has, little less CNC perfection there. I also like the idea of a blue gun. They just age better.

The one thing was it has sharp rear and front serration and no one in the store neither myself could rack the slide without using a towel or considerable force.

The front bushing still can not be turned without the wrench.

Anyway...off I went curious if this thing would even cycle.

The gun has some 5000 rounds through it with incredible accuracy and never a single FTF even with my lightest handholds.

It got a little smoother, can be racked ok but there is not slop in the gun anywhere. It still can not be racked hand over slide. I ned to point down and pull back.

Anyway, my favorite auto at par with my P210.
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Old 08-17-2018, 11:12 AM
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Off topic a bit, but I have to agree with the previous post about Baer .45s. It’s not uncommon to see people take a jab at them on the internet, but mine have been excellent.

Trust the OP got his S&W working to his satisfaction. I couldn’t agree more that any spring heavier than 18.5-pounds is a nuisance.
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:42 PM
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1911's - How stiff are these things supposed to be? 1911's - How stiff are these things supposed to be? 1911's - How stiff are these things supposed to be? 1911's - How stiff are these things supposed to be? 1911's - How stiff are these things supposed to be?  
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I recently got this E Series 1911 S&W and the first trip to the range it was difficult to rack, (and the trigger was heavier than I like) and with anything other than 230 ball there was an occasional failure to lock back after the last round. This even with Major power factor loads. After the first cleaning I installed an 18 1/2 lb. recoil spring and a 19 lb competition mainspring I happened to have around. The next trip it functioned flawlessly, ejecting everything and locking back even with my bullseye loads (4.3 gr 231 behind a 200gr cast SWC). I need to get another 250 to 300 rounds through it, but the trigger breaks at 4.75 lbs, just fine with me. The trigger does have a slight hesitation in it which will be taken care of the next time I clean it, a couple swipes of a stone. I'm curious to see what depth the hammer hook is set at, I like about .022.

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Last edited by H Richard; 08-17-2018 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:52 PM
Joni_Lynn Joni_Lynn is offline
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1911's - How stiff are these things supposed to be? 1911's - How stiff are these things supposed to be? 1911's - How stiff are these things supposed to be? 1911's - How stiff are these things supposed to be? 1911's - How stiff are these things supposed to be?  
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As far as Les Baer goes, Les builds his guns to be reliable and accurate. After they are built there's no large amount of time spent removing tool marks on the inside or doing a high price exterior finish. This is how he provides a great 1911 for a fairly reasonable cost. My LB guns outshoot my Wilson and the Browns and NH's that I've been able to shoot. The others cost more and are more refined in the interior and exterior, but not quite as accurate. That being said, for most people the difference may not be worth having a conversation about. LB bushing are hard fit to the slide, they'll always need a wrench, they also put considerable tension on the barrel which is why the guns are so hard to rack. Bump the slide on the nose if you're sure the gun is empty and it'll move back just enough to break that tension and rack easier. When taking a 1911 apart, it's a good idea (especially with a LB) to stick a case sideways in the ejection port to keep the barrel/bushing from going into lock up.
Best wishes.
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:55 PM
Execpro Execpro is offline
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1911's - How stiff are these things supposed to be? 1911's - How stiff are these things supposed to be? 1911's - How stiff are these things supposed to be? 1911's - How stiff are these things supposed to be? 1911's - How stiff are these things supposed to be?  
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I used an 18lb recoil spring with a Wilson Combat Shok-Buff recoil Buffer to prevent slide from battering the frame during recoil when I shot +P loads (185gr). Also used a silicon based grease on the slide rails.
It sounds like a combination of a new (tight slide to frame fit) that should over time season out and a too heavy recoil spring.
That’s what I always loved about 1911’s. You can customize so many things to meet your particular shooting needs.
Congrats on your new gun. ENJOY!

Be SAFE and Shoot often!
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