Impossible 4513 to find?

4T5GUY · #1 05-11-2018, 09:51 PM

How hard is it going to be to find a 7rnd 4513TSW that did NOT originally come with a rail? I know a couple of you have one, but it looks like you got them years ago.

Were there very many made? ( Likely not.) I have a renewed interest in 4513's, and this one seems like it would be a great find.

When I whined about getting a 45 Recon instead of a 45 Shorty MKII, a Forum member offered to sell me a SFF MKII, which I of course accepted. Maybe it will work again, but that's not why I am asking the question.

Jim

GaryS · #2 05-11-2018, 10:50 PM

Those seem to be very rare and were special production for agencies that didn't want a rail. I've seen a couple here, but as I recall, the owners looked long and hard to find them.

4T5GUY · #3 05-11-2018, 11:10 PM

Thanks Gary, I was afraid that was the case.

BUT, there were only 179 of the SFF MKII's made, and @603 total 45 Recon's made, (1/2 Blued maybe?) I suppose I "stumbled" upon these, but they were out there.

Anyone know how many latter 4513's without rails were produced Must be more than a few.

Jim

GaryS · #4 05-12-2018, 12:06 AM

Sometimes it's just luck of the draw. I looked for a 3953 for about five years before one came up for sale. A year or so after I bought it, I found a pre rail 3953TSW.

I almost literally stumbled on a 3914NL when I was looking for another gun.

I looked for a Model 13 3" for some years. I finally found a Model 64 3" and bought it figuring that I'd never find that Model 13. Two months later, the same FFL had a Model 13 3" listed.

You just never know when you are going to find something that you thought you'd never see.

Good luck.

4T5GUY · #5 05-12-2018, 12:49 AM

True, yes of course. Hunting and waiting is more fun than pushing A-12 in the vending machine and having your selection drop out.

I intend to wait and hunt, but just trying to figure out my odds, since I know nothing about the production numbers on them.

Again, I saw/got that Loveless S&W 41 Field Gun for VERY cheap, ($816.00,) and I NEVER thought I'd find one ever. I can show and or prove that there were only 34 of those made. Slim odds again.

Hopefully, there are more than a few 7rnd 4513's without a rail produced? I don't know.

Jim

BC38 · #6 05-12-2018, 01:00 AM

Have you considered a 457? Pretty much the same gun except for the rail - isn't it?

vigil617 · #7 05-12-2018, 07:27 AM

18DAI will be along and can fill in the details, but as I recall, these rail-less 4513 7-rounders were special order for an LE agency and were not a general production run. They also weren't from the Performance Center, so numbers from there won't relate to those from the production side.

Bakebfr480 · #8 05-12-2018, 08:51 AM

I see them at gun shows and occasionally at pawn shops. Didn't know they were "rare" either!

18DAI · #9 05-12-2018, 09:35 AM

I have no idea how many rail free 4513TSW full grip, 7-round guns were made. And I'm not sure how one would find out.........

I know that I searched for several years to find mine and were it not for the kindness of member Martya, I'd still be looking. Thanks again Martya!!

I know that at least two agencies ordered them. One in New Jersey and one in Arizona.

What I did back before I found one, was purchase one with the rail and have my gunsmith drill the rivets and take the rail off. He filled the holes in the dustcover with black plastic gromets. That gun sufficed till I got the one I was looking for.

Good luck with the hunt!

They are out there. Regards 18DAI

TTSH · #10 05-12-2018, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BC38

Have you considered a 457? Pretty much the same gun except for the rail - isn't it?

I always say Thank the Good Lord for the Model 457S because my hope of ever finding a pre-rail 4513TSW or a non-railed 7-round 4513TSW are somewhere between zero and nil.

And then factor in my ability to afford one of those unicorns even if found and you can see that I am dividing by zero (or something like that).

BC38 · #11 05-12-2018, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TTSH

I always say Thank the Good Lord for the Model 457S because my hope of ever finding a pre-rail 4513TSW or a non-railed 7-round 4513TSW are somewhere between zero and nil.

And then factor in my ability to afford one of those unicorns even if found and you can see that I am dividing by zero (or something like that).

LOL, you and me both brother. Love your combining mythological creatures and mathematical impossibilities in the same sentence. Quite the mixed-metaphor that really gets the point across... and I share your enthusiasm for the 457 too. I love mine - which is why I suggested it.

18DAI · #12 05-12-2018, 12:00 PM

As I own both a 457 and several 4513TSWs including a PC Shorty 45 MKII and have shot the models extensively, I will opine on the topic of the 457 vs 4513TSW.

While the 457 is a fine pistol in its own right and far better than many competing guns, it is not equal to a 4513TSW. In build quality or accuracy. Reliability? Yes. The 457 is every bit as reliable as any other 3rd gen gun I own.

But when you try to get a 457 to shoot sub 3 inch groups at the 15 yard line - using match grade 230 grain ammunition, you are most likely going to be frustrated and disappointed. I know I was. And my 457 is an early example. And a very fine 45 carry gun. But it is no 4513TSW.

The 4513TSW, using the same match grade ammo, easily performs the task. And its box frame rails, delayed lock up and matched frame and slide all play a part in that increased inherent accuracy.

The TSW guns were also built to last while shooting thousands of rounds. While I would suppose that some of the techniques used to insure the long life and durability of the TSW guns was incorporated into the value line, my 457s that I own and have owned, all show much more frame rail wear than the 4513TSW guns, at similar round counts.

Now lest my post be construed as a slam on the 457, let me assure you it is not. I carry my 457 a lot. And I am confident that it will put the medicine where the hurt is in an unfortunate incident. And it is superbly reliable and accurate enough to do that.

But other than being "similar" to a 4513TSW in size and reliability, the 457 is not "the same" as a 4513TSW. My 0.02 Regards 18DAI

GaryS · #13 05-12-2018, 12:36 PM

A 457S would be about the closest equivalent you'll find. Ironically, because S&W wanted a "cheap" .45 compact, they made a terrificly affordable .45 compact. I'd definitely sell off one of my 457's if I could find a 457S.

I've seen them at Gun Shows, but they seem to be in the $550.00 range there. That defeats the "cheap" part.

Hmmm, maybe I'll get a XD-E is .45ACP instead!

Just kidding, I don't want TTSH's BP to get too high.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TTSH

I always say Thank the Good Lord for the Model 457S because my hope of ever finding a pre-rail 4513TSW or a non-railed 7-round 4513TSW are somewhere between zero and nil.

And then factor in my ability to afford one of those unicorns even if found and you can see that I am dividing by zero (or something like that).

TTSH · #14 05-12-2018, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 18DAI

But other than being "similar" to a 4513TSW in size and reliability, the 457 is not "the same" as a 4513TSW. My 0.02 Regards 18DAI

Easy for you to say!

You found the gosh-darn unicorn!

I don't doubt anything you said in the above post, but for a dirt poor, half-senile old man like me, the 457S (in particular, the stainless steel version... not that I wouldn't love to own a pristine black one too) fills the bill for me like a glove.

I love my 4516-1 too, but the 457S is just what the doctor ordered for my personal needs. I am not a good enough marksman to even tell the difference on my targets between the guns mentioned, other than gun-to-gun variances. And best of all, I can usually afford 457S pistols when they show up. The pistol in the hand is always worth more than two in never-never land.

Someday, I may find a unicorn too.

So far, no luck.

But you never know.

It's what keeps us hunting and collecting!

GaryS · #15 05-12-2018, 12:42 PM

I would have to agree, even though I've never shot a 4513TSW. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen one in the wild for that matter. Either version.

That being said, neither of my 457s have much in the way of slide rattle. Both lock up tight, both are very accurate, in fact more accurate than am I. I think I've posted pictures of the large ragged hole in the center of reduced sized targets at 21 or so feet. I've even been able to place head shots on those targets.

Everyone I've ever let shoot my 457 wants to know where he can get one. A friend offered to buy it from me on the spot, and he's a 1911 fan.

I worry about frame where on all of my 3rd Gens, which is why I pay so much attention to cleaning and lubricating them.

While it's definitely not TSW quality, it's still better than most other guns out there. About the only things I'd consider doing, if I could get the parts reasonably, would be replacing the recoil guide rod and disconnector with metal parts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 18DAI

As I own both a 457 and several 4513TSWs including a PC Shorty 45 MKII and have shot the models extensively, I will opine on the topic of the 457 vs 4513TSW.

While the 457 is a fine pistol in its own right and far better than many competing guns, it is not equal to a 4513TSW. In build quality or accuracy. Reliability? Yes. The 457 is every bit as reliable as any other 3rd gen gun I own.

But when you try to get a 457 to shoot sub 3 inch groups at the 15 yard line - using match grade 230 grain ammunition, you are most likely going to be frustrated and disappointed. I know I was. And my 457 is an early example. And a very fine 45 carry gun. But it is no 4513TSW.

The 4513TSW, using the same match grade ammo, easily performs the task. And its box frame rails, delayed lock up and matched frame and slide all play a part in that increased inherent accuracy.

The TSW guns were also built to last while shooting thousands of rounds. While I would suppose that some of the techniques used to insure the long life and durability of the TSW guns was incorporated into the value line, my 457s that I own and have owned, all show much more frame rail wear than the 4513TSW guns, at similar round counts.

Now lest my post be construed as a slam on the 457, let me assure you it is not. I carry my 457 a lot. And I am confident that it will put the medicine where the hurt is in an unfortunate incident. And it is superbly reliable and accurate enough to do that.

But other than being "similar" to a 4513TSW in size and reliability, the 457 is not "the same" as a 4513TSW. My 0.02 Regards 18DAI

TTSH · #16 05-12-2018, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryS

A 457S would be about the closest equivalent you'll find. Ironically, because S&W wanted a "cheap" .45 compact, they made a terrificly affordable .45 compact. I'd definitely sell off one of my 457's if I could find a 457S.

I've seen them at Gun Shows, but they seem to be in the $550.00 range there. That defeats the "cheap" part.

Hmmm, maybe I'll get a XD-E is .45ACP instead!

Just kidding, I don't want TTSH's BP to get too high.

TTSH's blood pressure is off-the-charts high these days, but it has nothing to do with you looking at modern plastic wonder guns with silly "Grip Zone" signs on it.

That's actually a big potential plus for me!

My BP is sky high because my PCP is changing my HBP meds again.

And if I can manage to afford a Model 457S, so can VOUS!

Remember GaryS, you can't take it with you!

4T5GUY · #17 05-12-2018, 01:09 PM

I can understand the admiration and following for the 457. Yes, a 457S could work as a alternative for me, but I think I'll hold out.

I'm kinda drawn to similar/progressing models, and like the "Value Line" series allot, but get them as I find them, when they are cheap. A 457S is not ever going to be cheap.

I don't really need another 4513, but it would fit in so nice, and I'd like to compare how they all print on paper.

Jim

18DAI · #18 05-12-2018, 01:56 PM

Hey look! A Unicorn!!

TTSH · #19 05-12-2018, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 18DAI

Hey look! A Unicorn!!

Show-off!!!

18DAI · #20 05-12-2018, 02:10 PM

Sorry TTSH!

Just thought I'd illustrate the gun we are talking about.

4T5GUY · #21 05-12-2018, 02:30 PM

Sometimes I wish there was a thumbs down, DISLIKE option. I would use it for sure.

Just kidding, (mostly,) 18DAI.

Jim

18DAI · #22 05-12-2018, 02:34 PM

Members Laddysmith and Martya also own examples. I have not seen either around in awhile.

Maybe send them a PM and see if they still like theirs. You never know. Regards 18DAI

vigil617 · #23 05-12-2018, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 18DAI

Hey look! A Unicorn!!

You're gettin' good at this photo-posting stuff, 18!

I do believe this is the first time I've seen a photo of your Unicorn. Sweeeeeeeeeet!

Redcoat3340 · #24 05-14-2018, 12:46 AM

So let me ask a favor here: If anyone comes across a nice 457....or a 4513 that just isn't for them....TELL ME. I'm dy'in for one or the other.

I dumb-lucked into a 4566 TSW that's apparently a bit of a rarity....bobbed hammer, no rail (and no holes for a rail) and a decocker but NOT a safety. I was told here it was made special for a few agencies. I didn't realize what I had and, apparently, neither did the seller.

So I likes it a whole lot but I'd need double suspenders to carry it (I hate wearing my pants in a puddle 'round my ankles)...so I'd like to find a compact version.

Here's a pic of the 4566.

vigil617 · #25 05-14-2018, 06:12 AM

Not as rare as the rail-free 4513 with 7-round mag, Redcoat, but your 4566TSW is seldom seen and a real prize. Congratulations on an exceptional pick up!

18DAI · #26 05-14-2018, 09:19 AM

The gun I am still searching for, going on 8 years now, is the rail free 4563TSW. It was special ordered by the same Arizona LE agency that had the rail free 4513TSWs done up.

J&G had some at one time, but I was a day late there. Someday.........

Regards 18DAI

Redcoat3340 · #27 05-14-2018, 01:03 PM

18DAI....well, ya got everyone on this thread out look'n for it now. Maybe we need a new section here: "Help Me Find....."

GaryS · #28 05-14-2018, 01:21 PM

I think they keep the rail free 4563TSWs in the same crate as the Lost Ark.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 18DAI

The gun I am still searching for, going on 8 years now, is the rail free 4563TSW. It was special ordered by the same Arizona LE agency that had the rail free 4513TSWs done up.

J&G had some at one time, but I was a day late there. Someday.........

Regards 18DAI

GaryS · #29 05-15-2018, 01:22 PM

4T5GUY,

You waited almost 20 minutes to snap up that beautiful no rail 4513TSW!

Looks ANIB, with three magazines and all the stuff that came with it, including a Master Lock.

I have the 9mm version, on my hip right now. You won't be disappointed, not one bit.

If you plan to carry that, Numrich has the flat style slide lock available.

Congratulations.

TTSH · #30 05-15-2018, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryS

4T5GUY,

You waited almost 20 minutes to snap up that beautiful no rail 4513TSW!

LOL!!!

Success in collecting belongs to the quick and the bold... neither of which are moi!

Well done 4T5GUY!!!

4T5GUY · #31 05-15-2018, 03:35 PM

Well, yes and no.

I got a heads up from a fellow forum member about it. I took a quick, very quick look, and said "yep."

Unfortunately after spending more than a second looking, I have the same, box, mags +, papers, but with factory night sights. All I saw was what I wanted to see, a pre-rail, 7 rnd 4513tsw. Obviously I made a bad mistake, and am VERY sorry to all, and will try to make it right. Somehow.

Jim

18DAI · #32 05-15-2018, 06:52 PM

Congrats!

Wow......that was a short search!

Enjoy that fine 45! Regards 18DAI

Shorty 45 MK2 · #33 05-15-2018, 07:20 PM

Congrats! Always nice to check ine off the list.

vigil617 · #34 05-15-2018, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4T5GUY

Well, yes and no.

I'm a bit late to today's party, but I think I can read between the lines and figure out what must have happened earlier today. Don't beat yourself up over it, 4T5GUY; we all can get caught up in a search and think just as you did, that what you've been looking for has suddenly appeared.

Guns have been known to pop up for sale on the big site, and even here on occasion, right around the time a thread about them has been going on. Maybe it's just the sheerest of coincidences when that happens, but I think that there are times when folks see an opportunity and a demand, and decide that a gun that's been in the safe for a while needs to come out onto the market. It's pretty cool when that happens.

I think I know the gun you're referring to, and to me, anytime one of those comes on the market, either here or elsewhere, it always gets my attention. I love seeing 'em out there! In this case, it just wasn't the one with the 7-plus-one setup, though when the numbers 4513 and 7 start dancing with other, it's very easy to get excited.

Stuff happens. It's OK. Your search continues!