The CS-series...

[TTSH]

As a "don't get too far off-topic" sister thread to 18's current thread on the CS9, I'd like to get a couple thoughts out there and maybe get some feedback from the team.

It's apparent to anyone who looks at the CS-series of pistols that the CS-series is an extension of (or addition to) the Value Line series of S&W 3rd Gen pistols. And I'm not talking about the pre-Value Line Models 915 and 411. I'm talking about the real Value Line guns made from 1995 through 2006/2007.

Two questions to ponder:

1) Why didn't the mothership base the design of the 1998-2006 CS-series pistols on their premium line pistols (absent the black mustache rails, of course)? Does it strike anyone else as slightly strange that pistols supposedly made specifically for Police Chiefs were based on Value Line products? Could those Police Chiefs not afford premium line guns for themselves? If so, maybe we should pay them better.

2) Why do the CS-series pistols generally get top praise from the team (along with the Models 457/457S almost without exception) while the other true Value Line pistols are very often looked down upon as cheap junk to be shunned... barely better than today's modern disposable plastic wonder guns? Seems there is an inconsistency there that I have a very hard time reconciling.

Any thoughts out there on this poor old man's confusion?

[18DAI]

Well I think that the CS guns were a last ditch effort to keep selling the 3rd gens and keep them price competitive with the plastic striker fired guns that were filling LE holsters.

There were as many cost cutting measures taken with the CS series as with the rest of the value line guns. This kept the price down somewhat - a LNIB CS9 still was listed at around $700 back twards the end of production. But the street price in the cop shops was less than that. High $500s to low $600s IIRC.

But they didnt skimp on the performance. My CS9 and CS45 are every bit as reliable and very close in accuracy to my regular production and TSW series 3rd gens.

As to the second part of your question - I dont know. Ive never bad mouthed any 3rd gen gun. They are all superior to anything being pushed out today. Regards 18DAI

[cololab]

The only thing I have ever heard in regard to your second question is that the smaller autos were more attractive to CCW carry; and somewhat safer to carry than the striker fired pistols that were coming on the scene. Admittedly the same "value" production features as their larger brothers, but their smaller size just made them more appealing.

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by 18DAI

Well I think that the CS guns were a last ditch effort to keep selling the 3rd gens and keep them price competitive with the plastic striker fired guns that were filling LE holsters.

There were as many cost cutting measures taken with the CS series as with the rest of the value line guns. This kept the price down somewhat - a LNIB CS9 still was listed at around $700 back towards the end of production. But the street price in the cop shops was less than that. High $500s to low $600s IIRC.

Well, let's put this in a time perspective. As of 1998, the first pre-rail TSW's had appeared a year earlier with the railed TSW's still 2 years away. The SW99 series was introduced a year later in 1999. The Sigmas had been out since 1994. True value Line guns had been out since 1995.

To me, it just doesn't fit the plan that the CS-series guns would come out of the Value Line at the time they did. I can see why they weren't introduced as "mini-pre-rail" TSW handguns, but why not just regular but smaller non-TSW premium line guns? Or did they already have the railed TSW handgun line on the drawing board and didn't think a black mustache railed mini-TSW made any sense? (It doesn't!)

As much as the whole Value Line can be thought of as the mothership's reaction to its plastic wonder gun competition, does making its new "Chief's Special" a Value Line gun make sense marketing-wise? I tend to wonder about things like this.

[18DAI]

Money. The rail free TSW pistol, out a year or so later, cost more. Relatively, the CS guns were a cheap alternative.

And they were VERY popular with LE, as BUGs and off duty guns. Especially MARRIED Detectives and plain clothes guys who didn't necessarily have the discretionary income laying around for a shiny new TSW gun. Ask me how I know that. Regards 18DAI

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by 18DAI

Money. The rail free TSW pistol, out a year or so later, cost more. Relatively, the CS guns were a cheap alternative.

And they were VERY popular with LE, as BUGs and off duty guns. Especially MARRIED Detectives and plain clothes guys who didn't necessarily have the discretionary income laying around for a shiny new TSW gun. Ask me how I know that. Regards 18DAI

In other words, what you're really saying is that the semi-auto "Chief's Special" series pistols weren't really intended just for Chiefs of Police.

[Fastbolt]

The Chiefs Special series were supposedly envisioned as a reduced cost subcompact series, without the frills. Just working guns for plainclothes and off-duty cops, affordably priced.

They were never really produced in high numbers, from what I was told.

One of the cost-saving methods was to use the older & smaller step-type rails of the standard 3rd gen frames, and initially the guns got plastic sights and a single-side manual safety, as well.

Another was the use of the non-adjustable mag catch nut and mag catch body. Of course, that also meant the usual methods of changing the mag catch to LH operation wasn't going to be available in the CS series. In the double stack 9/.40 TSW's the frames were cut to be able to remove and flip the mag catch body and adjust the nut button, while in the .45 TSW's it required a dedicated LH mag catch body (developed for the older 10's, maybe, but I can't remember anymore). The later production 4566TSW's were shipped with the optional LH mag catch body for LE orders.

I was told the only reason they ended up having a more expensive Hogue grip made for them was because they decided the felt recoil forces in the little guns, especially in .40 & .45, would be a bit too much for the taste of the buyer.

The later production CS45/9's got ambi manual safety assemblies, steel Novak-style sights (optional night sights) and steel guide rods. The original guide rods came with plastic (nylon) plungers, and then they started using the same steel plungers which came in the newer/revised 1-piece guide rods of the newer TSW's.

The "working/action" parts and assemblies were the same used in the other 3rd gens (meaning the TSW's, too), so the robust reliability of the 3rd gen design was unchanged.

The barrels are another story, and nowadays I'm fuzzy on some of the details I once knew (or thought I did, at any rate). Some things I wrote down in notes when talking to a tech, armorer instructor or the occasional engineer, and some things I didn't bother to write down (which are now fuzzy as time passes and the guns have been relegated to the "obsolete" pile).

[Fastbolt]

TTSH, I just added a couple things, so you might refresh and see if it was after you read the post.

[toddstang]

Value line or not, the CS series is a dam good gun!

[Jeppo]

Dearly beloved,

How can I convince all of you to stop posting about these wonderful older guns? The holder of my mortgage, together with the director of my household's finance committee, would greatly appreciate it.

[BAM-BAM]

I always thought the "Chief Special" Billboard.....was just a update to the use of the name of the early post war pre-model 36 ".38 Chief Special" (page 176 SCS&W4th ed). Just a marketing ploy.

Back in the day.....my Dad as a Capt.: like most "White Shirts" only carried a Colt Detective Special on his belt.....today our local Chief's "Bat Belt" is pretty much the same as his patrol officers. Think Tom Selleck as the Commish in Bluebloods carring his Dad's old 36.

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by Fastbolt

The later production CS45/9's got ambi manual safety assemblies, steel Novak-style sights (optional night sights) and steel guide rods. The original guide rods came with plastic (nylon) plungers, and then they started using the same steel plungers which came in the newer/revised 1-piece guide rods of the newer TSW's.

Did the changes you describe above happen all at once... and, if so, when exactly was that? The Bible is seriously lacking in regard to CS-series history.

Three of my four CS-series pistols are early production models and have the standard Value Line features (example: non-ambi safety). My fourth one, a CS45, is a 2004 gun. Unfortunately, I cannot access it today to check it, but I don't recall it being ambi or having a metal rear sight. I see that there is a CS40 for sale in the classifieds that is clearly a 2002 gun that does have an ambi safety, but still appears to have a plastic rear sight.

Checking of more on-line photos seems to suggest that at least some late-production guns still have non-ambi safeties... so I have to wonder if these were owner changes or if the mothership offered the CS-series guns both ways even in the later production years?

In short, I'm more confused than ever. Being right-handed and having no use at all for ambi safeties, it seems I would have taken note if my 2004 CS45 was ambi. On the other hand, I'm old and senile so maybe not. But I sure would like it if all my CS-series guns had non-ambi safeties and metal rear sights. Were those late-production metal rear sights direct replacements for the plastic rear sights? Or did they require a different rear dovetail cut in the slide.

[Jeppo]

The only example I have (so far ) is a black CS9. It has the non-ambi and steel rear sights. It appears to have been shot very little (if at all) so I doubt the previous owner(s) would have modified it.

YMMV

[Jeppo]

Originally Posted by Jeppo

The only example I have (so far ) is a black CS9. It has the non-ambi and steel rear sights. It appears to have been shot very little (if at all) so I doubt the previous owner(s) would have modified it.

YMMV

I probably should have waited to post that. A few minutes later I bought my second.

[18DAI]

Congrats Jeppo!

Looking forward to your range report! Regards 18DAI

[HOUSTON RICK]

These later production stainless (CS9 and CS45) are the only semi-automatic small carry guns that I want (well need - I would not mind a Model 3913 from Santa) . Their performance and quality is all that I will need. Unlike my 357 carry revolver, these are even fun at the range. I have shot a lot of comparative guns and ended up with these. Reasonable minds may have different opinions. As to being of the economy line, what was economy back then is in the "They don't make them like that anymore category" today. I think the answer is that they are easy to carry, fun to shoot, accurate for their size, and hold up well.

[GaryS]

I think that by now we should all understand that S&W did a lot of "running changes" before they actually announced a model revision. Sometimes, they did changes and didn't announce a revision.

S&W made changes to increase reliability and/or reduce production costs.

Early CS guns were black(ish) and had left side only safety/decocker levers. Later ones were stainless and seem to mostly have ambi levers. It's possible, maybe even likely that some left the factory stainless with only a left side lever.

Personally, I'd swap out the ambi lever for a left side only if I were to find stainless CS9 and bought it.

Finally, I think the "Chiefs Special" moniker was pure marketing to make people think of this as a semi auto version of the Model 36. Something light, with limited rounds, and which could be dropped into a pocket if desired.

Originally Posted by TTSH

Did the changes you describe above happen all at once... and, if so, when exactly was that? The Bible is seriously lacking in regard to CS-series history.

Three of my four CS-series pistols are early production models and have the standard Value Line features (example: non-ambi safety). My fourth one, a CS45, is a 2004 gun. Unfortunately, I cannot access it today to check it, but I don't recall it being ambi or having a metal rear sight. I see that there is a CS40 for sale in the classifieds that is clearly a 2002 gun that does have an ambi safety, but still appears to have a plastic rear sight.

Checking of more on-line photos seems to suggest that at least some late-production guns still have non-ambi safeties... so I have to wonder if these were owner changes or if the mothership offered the CS-series guns both ways even in the later production years?

In short, I'm more confused than ever. Being right-handed and having no use at all for ambi safeties, it seems I would have taken note if my 2004 CS45 was ambi. On the other hand, I'm old and senile so maybe not. But I sure would like it if all my CS-series guns had non-ambi safeties and metal rear sights. Were those late-production metal rear sights direct replacements for the plastic rear sights? Or did they require a different rear dovetail cut in the slide.

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by GaryS

I think that by now we should all understand that S&W did a lot of "running changes" before they actually announced a model revision. Sometimes, they did changes and didn't announce a revision.

S&W made changes to increase reliability and/or reduce production costs.

Early CS guns were black(ish) and had left side only safety/decocker levers. Later ones were stainless and seem to mostly have ambi levers. It's possible, maybe even likely that some left the factory stainless with only a left side lever.

Personally, I'd swap out the ambi lever for a left side only if I were to find stainless CS9 and bought it.

Finally, I think the "Chiefs Special" moniker was pure marketing to make people think of this as a semi auto version of the Model 36. Something light, with limited rounds, and which could be dropped into a pocket if desired.

Geesh! Guess I need to pull out all of mine (they are all SS) and verify the noted parts. My memory just ain't what it used to be. I've got factory boxes for two of them so I know their vintages very precisely. I'll have to call S&W CS for dates on the other two, but I know they are early production just from the serial number prefixes.

And yes, I really do strongly prefer the non-ambi safeties. It's one of the things that keeps me going back to the stainless steel Value Line guns... well, that plus the fact that they are on our approved roster (along with the CS-series guns) so never a hassle importing one.

[Fastbolt]

Originally Posted by GaryS

... Later ones were stainless and seem to mostly have ambi levers. It's possible, maybe even likely that some left the factory stainless with only a left side lever. ...

I ordered one of the stainless ones as soon as they were announced. It came with a single side manual safety assembly.

I promptly called the PC and arranged to have the slide sent back for the optional (for LE-Only, at that time, we were told) machining to accept the brand new spring-loaded/decock-only assembly. I didn't send the whole gun, because as an armorer I'd be able to fit a new sear release lever, if needed, for the new spring-loaded assembly in the slide.

In order to install the decock-only assembly the PC smith had to file a disassembly groove recess into the right side of the slide, to create room for the ambi lever to be removed. (If you've never tried to disassemble the slide on an older 3rd gen .45, trying to hold the assembly "decocked" to the 45-degree angle needed to remove the lever ... while holding the lever down against the spring pressure of the DC-Only assembly's spring ... it's a 3-handed joy. )

I got a call from the PC smith who did the work, apologizing for a slip of the file which rounded off the sharp edge of the front of the new angled lever channel. I told him it was no big deal, as the gun was only going to be a "working gun", and the file stroke mistake was never going to be seen outside my off-duty holster except by someone who would be more concerned with seeing the big hole of the muzzle.

When the CS45's started coming with ambi assemblies, I presume they had made the same revisions to the slide dimensions as had been made in the new production 4566/4513TSW's, meaning the disassembly channel was no longer needed. (Meaning the slides were thinner so the R/S cuts was no longer necessary? Dunno. I never compared a late production CS45 to one of the newer 4513/4566's, so I'm only guessing. I never mic'd the slides of the earlier/newer .45's, either, nor did I mic the .45 ambi levers.)

If you're wondering what I mean, here's a pic of my original 4513TSW (top) and my late-production issued 4513TSW. Note the forward angled recessed channel below the R/S ambi lever is no longer present on the R/S of the slide in the new (bottom) gun?



Here's my original 4513 and my PC-modified CS45. Note the hand-cut/filed recessed channel is unevenly shiny? You can't see it in this few year old, fuzzy pic, but the front edge of the hand-cut channel is flattened from a misplaced heavy file stroke.



I suppose back then I could've raised a little hell and gotten a new stainless slide, and had the smith modify the replacement slide, but considering the low cost of the CS45 (armorer pricing), and that it was just going to be a range-beater and occasional off-duty weapon, I didn't want to bother. I'd had a good relationship with various people at the factory as an armorer, and I didn't want to jeopardize that by being fussy about a gun that wasn't ever intended to be a show-piece. Or ... Maybe I was just lazy and wanted the CS45 back together so I could start running it at the range. Water under the bridge, at any rate.

[JohnHL]

Later .45 series safeties are wider, hence no longer require a slide clearance cut.

John

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by TTSH

Geesh! Guess I need to pull out all of mine (they are all SS) and verify the noted parts. My memory just ain't what it used to be. I've got factory boxes for two of them so I know their vintages very precisely. I'll have to call S&W CS for dates on the other two, but I know they are early production just from the serial number prefixes.

Okay, time for me to admit to the world what an idiot I am. I just pulled all four of my CS-series guns out of my safes and it turns out that not one, but three of my four CS-series guns are later ambi-safety and metal rear sight versions.

So much for my fantastic memory. I was further fooled by the serial number prefixes bounced against the Bible, but it appears that I assumed too much about prefix sequences. Wrong thing to do! Once again, there is no substitute for opening the gosh darn safes and looking at them.

I wonder if they sell those memory enhancement pills at my local pharmacy. Apparently, I need them.

[Telecaster]

Originally Posted by GaryS

It's possible, maybe even likely that some left the factory stainless with only a left side lever.

That’s what mine is. Unless a previous owner swapped out the right side.

[Fastbolt]

A buddy of mine picked up both a CS9 and CS45 when they were brand new. He asked me to replace the black left/side manual safety with an ambi assembly on his CS9, but all I had was a stainless one. He said that was fine with him, as it contrasted against the otherwise all-black CS9. I still have that single side black finish L/H manual safety assembly in my parts kits. (I think it's the only black one I have left over, but I still have a fair number of early production stainless ambi assemblies for the 9/.40 slides, but they're used.)

[XBeanie68]

Hope this fits in this thread. I recently acquired a CS45. I found a posting in another thread from 8 years ago from a guy that had done an awesome job of tricking out a CS45. One of the things he did that sounded easy and attractive was to replace the plastic mag release with a metal one. I obtained a 4506 metal mag release assembly from Numrich and started to remove the plastic stuff from my CS45. I discovered that the button did not just unscrew like it did on my 4506 and 1006. I think maybe it just pops on/off, but it didn't come off with a pull using a vice grip. I hate to be too aggressive in case what I'm trying to do won't work or I'm just going to mess things up. Any body have experience with replacing the plastic mechanism on the CS45?

[GaryS]

The plastic button is a one time use part. Once you take it off, it needs to be replaced with a new one.

Additionally, on the other Value Line guns, the frames are machined differently for the spring and plunger that lock the metal button in place. I don't know if that applies to the CS45, but it does on my 457.

I'm sure that one of the experienced armorers or gunsmiths that work 3rd Gen guns can explain it better.

Originally Posted by XBeanie68

Hope this fits in this thread. I recently acquired a CS45. I found a posting in another thread from 8 years ago from a guy that had done an awesome job of tricking out a CS45. One of the things he did that sounded easy and attractive was to replace the plastic mag release with a metal one. I obtained a 4506 metal mag release assembly from Numrich and started to remove the plastic stuff from my CS45. I discovered that the button did not just unscrew like it did on my 4506 and 1006. I think maybe it just pops on/off, but it didn't come off with a pull using a vice grip. I hate to be too aggressive in case what I'm trying to do won't work or I'm just going to mess things up. Any body have experience with replacing the plastic mechanism on the CS45?

[Fastbolt]

I'm not a skilled and accomplished machinist, so it would never occur to me to try (dare) to modify a 3rd gen frame that uses the plastic mag catch button, to one that would accept the standard 3rd gen mag catch nut and body parts.

The adjustable stainless steel mag nut is threaded, and the end of the mag catch body is threaded, so the nut can be used to adjust the movement (reach) of the mag catch body. The adjustment is done by turning the nut/button a half turn at a time, and its set in the desired position by a steel plunger that fits in the end of the plunger spring. The adjustment is done to set the proper engagement of the mag catch in the magazine's mag catch window cut.

It uses an offset straight and longer spring under the nut, which is contained within its own hole. The type used in the "Value" line and CS series guns has a shorter, fatter tornado-shaped spring, which has to be installed under the nut (and its "directional" in its orientation), around the end of the mag catch body.

The cool thing about the CS mag catch assembly design is that it never has to be adjusted. They got it right. The design is simpler, and doesn't need a plunger.

As was already mentioned, it's taught to armors that the plastic mag catch nut/button is a 1-time use part. You pull it off, it should be replaced with a new one. (Those parts are slowly disappearing, as they're considered obsolete parts. Sometimes Midway gets some, as they may receive them from S&W.) Armorers are told not to remove the plastic nuts (or the mag catch assembly) for normal cleaning or inspections, but only for any needed repair. I've been shooting both of my CS guns for many years, and have yet to need the spare sets of those parts I ordered a long time ago (because I ordered assorted parts as an armorer for any guns I owned).

Now, even though I've never had to replace a Value/CS series mag catch, and the last armorer instructor I asked about it had never had to do it, I was told by someone else at the factory that he once used some needle nose pliers to just tear one off the end of the mag catch body. The plastic nut/button has a raised inner ring, which snaps over a corresponding ring on the end of the mag catch body. They told us it's a 1-time snap-on part, as the ring can easily be damaged by removing it.

We have some members on the forum who are apparently skilled machinists. I'm just not one of them.

[TercGen]

Originally Posted by XBeanie68

Hope this fits in this thread. I recently acquired a CS45. I found a posting in another thread from 8 years ago from a guy that had done an awesome job of tricking out a CS45. One of the things he did that sounded easy and attractive was to replace the plastic mag release with a metal one. I obtained a 4506 metal mag release assembly from Numrich and started to remove the plastic stuff from my CS45. I discovered that the button did not just unscrew like it did on my 4506 and 1006. I think maybe it just pops on/off, but it didn't come off with a pull using a vice grip. I hate to be too aggressive in case what I'm trying to do won't work or I'm just going to mess things up. Any body have experience with replacing the plastic mechanism on the CS45?

So, I recently had to replace a worn mag catch button on a used 908 I picked up cheap as a project gun. This is the same style of mag catch setup and button that the CS45 uses. I used a slim metal punch on the center of the button and punched the actual mag catch out of the button that way.

Replacing with the new button and spring, I found that having the larger end of the tornado spring facing up into the mag catch button seemed to be the correct orientation. Doing the machining required to install a 4506 mag catch assy seems pretty complex to me, but if you feel that you can replicate that feat I wish you the best of luck.

[XBeanie68]

Thanks all. I had assumed (you know what they say about that) that the mag release would be the same as the other 3 Gen pistols, just made out of plastic. Not going to get involved in any re-machining. The guy that did the old post that included the fact that he had replaced the mag release assembly with metal was a serious machinist, so I guess he didn't have any trouble making those kind of changes. And, if the plastic stuff works and holds up OK, I don't really have any issue with it, other than aesthetics.

[barbara_em]

I had a black CS-9 in the EKW serial number range. It had a single sided safety and was an excellent shooter. At the time, I also had a 908S. When one of the school district police officers decided he wanted a classy gun instead of plastic, I decided to part with one of the small 9mms. All in the cause of furthering police-civilian goodwill, of course. I decided I'd rather have a slightly larger pistol in stainless than the slightly smaller pistol in blued steel.
That ISD officer's still happily carrying the CS9, although I think a Glock 43 may be in his future. I know the S&W's earmarked for his grandson.