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Old 06-11-2018, 09:08 PM
mikem mikem is offline
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Default Please explain this to me

Hi,

How is it that the Model 469 is classified as a DA/SA pistol?

I was looking at some photos of a Model 469 and there's no exposed hammer on it that I can see.

So if SA is cocking the hammer and THEN pulling trigger to fire the pistol, how is the Model 469 DA/SA if there's no exposed hammer to cock before pulling the trigger to fire it (SA)?

Man, I hoped I asked that right.

Thanks
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Old 06-11-2018, 09:13 PM
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Racking the first round into the chamber leaves the hammer in the cocked position unless/until you operate the decocker. The first round will fire SA.
Same is true after firing the first round - even if you fire it DA. The second and subsequent shots are all SA.
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Old 06-11-2018, 09:21 PM
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Default Well, I hope my answer is right, or at least close......

When you rack the slide, the hammer is cocked. Presumably there is a decocker that allows you to uncock it in case you don't want to shoot it. If you rack and shoot, it fire's in single action, subsequent shots are also single action due to the hammer being cocked. If you decock the gun, you can still shoot the gun by pulling the trigger in double action which also brings the hammer back. Again, subsequent shots will be SA.

I suppose that the sacrifice of an open hammer is a small concession if you can fire the gun from an uncocked position.

Our DA/SA Taurus operates this way, except you can cock it by pulling the hammer and shooting in SA. I found out that I REALLY LIKE this set up.
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Old 06-11-2018, 09:21 PM
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The 469 has a spurless hammer. You can't see it when it is decocked as it rests flush against the rear of the slide. Regards 18DAI
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Old 06-11-2018, 09:34 PM
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First shot is DA. Subsequent shots are SA. Designed to be carried with a round in the chamber, hammer down. Decocking lever is only way to lower hammer.
That`s the simple explanation.
Jim
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Old 06-11-2018, 10:00 PM
mikem mikem is offline
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Okay, I get it, I think.

Now, say we have a Model 59 with a round in the chamber.

I thumb-cock the hammer, then I pull the trigger. The pistol fires.

I have fired the pistol using the single action mode, correct?

It just seems to there should be another action category.

To me, racking the slide (which puts a round in the chamber AND cocks the hammer) and then pulling the trigger to fire a pistol is a VERY DIFFERENT operation than having one in the chamber, thumb-cocking the pistol and firing.

Yet, though these operations are different "methods" used to fire the pistol, they are both called single action? This just doesn't seem right to me.


Does anyone see what I mean or am I just being stupid about this?
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Old 06-11-2018, 10:10 PM
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yes.........
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Old 06-11-2018, 10:11 PM
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They are still both single action methods of firing the gun.

In your second example YOU are putting the pistol in SA mode by thumb cocking it. Otherwise you just pull the trigger for a DA first shot. Regards 18DAI
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Old 06-11-2018, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntsman22 View Post
yes.........
Yes, you see what I mean?

Or yes, I'm being stupid about this?

On second thought, never mind. I'm sorry I asked.
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Old 06-11-2018, 10:33 PM
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The trigger is pulled in DA mode for the first shot...it has nothing to do with whether you can manually cock the hammer.

All remaining shots the hammer is being driven back and thus cocking the gun which results in a single action trigger pull.

Randy

Last edited by growr; 06-11-2018 at 10:44 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 06-11-2018, 10:49 PM
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If you look at the top of the hammer you will find it is grooved. The grooving on top of the hammer works exactly the same as the grooving on the exposed spur, but you have to lift the hammer partially with the trigger to grip the grooving! To shoot the gun single-action from the first round you simply pull the trigger to partially raise the hammer, grasp the hammer on the top just like a spurred hammer and cock it with your thumb.


I would explain the early history of the spurless hammer for the Model 39, but no one would believe me anyway, so I won't!
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Last edited by Alk8944; 06-11-2018 at 10:51 PM.
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Old 06-11-2018, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alk8944 View Post
If you look at the top of the hammer you will find it is grooved. The grooving on top of the hammer works exactly the same as the grooving on the exposed spur, but you have to lift the hammer partially with the trigger to grip the grooving! To shoot the gun single-action from the first round you simply pull the trigger to partially raise the hammer, grasp the hammer on the top just like a spurred hammer and cock it with your thumb.


I would explain the early history of the spurless hammer for the Model 39, but no one would believe me anyway, so I won't!
You may be right but I would be surprised...I wouldn't do it. I admit I have no rational explanation for the serrations on the top of the hammer although not all have it.

edit: I guess I figure if a person isn't comfortable with the first DA shot then perhaps that isn't the platform they should be using. I don't mind it at all. YMMV.

Last edited by lhump1961; 06-11-2018 at 11:16 PM.
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Old 06-12-2018, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikem View Post
Okay, I get it, I think.

Now, say we have a Model 59 with a round in the chamber.

I thumb-cock the hammer, then I pull the trigger. The pistol fires.

I have fired the pistol using the single action mode, correct?

It just seems to there should be another action category.

To me, racking the slide (which puts a round in the chamber AND cocks the hammer) and then pulling the trigger to fire a pistol is a VERY DIFFERENT operation than having one in the chamber, thumb-cocking the pistol and firing.

Yet, though these operations are different "methods" used to fire the pistol, they are both called single action? This just doesn't seem right to me.


Does anyone see what I mean or am I just being stupid about this?
The definition of single action is that pulling the trigger releases the sear dropping the hammer - pulling the trigger performs a single action.

The definition of double action is that pulling the trigger cocks the hammer and then releases the sear to drop the hammer - the trigger performs two (double) actions.

Whether the hammer is cocked by your thumb or by racking the slide, the trigger still performs the same (single) action of releasing the sear and dropping the hammer.

Hope that clarifies the answer.
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Old 06-12-2018, 03:30 AM
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^^

The Colt SA Army and the 1911 are both single-action guns, even though the cowboy revolver is a repeater and the 1911 is semiautomatic. In both instances, the trigger only performs one task at a time--releasing the hammer.
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Old 06-12-2018, 08:00 AM
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Single action the trigger performs one action ,, releasing the hammer.
Double action the trigger performs two actions,, cocking the hammer and releasing the hammer.

It doesn't matter if you cock the hammer by thumb , or if you cock the hammer using the slide..
The trigger is only releasing the hammer.

Don't know if this helps or not .? Just the way my simple mind understands it..

Last edited by old&slow; 06-12-2018 at 08:03 AM.
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Old 06-12-2018, 11:11 AM
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Or you do what I did, & install a 459 hammer in the gun so you can cock it for the first shot. GARY
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Old 06-12-2018, 02:36 PM
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The key to peace and harmony on this subject is to accept IMPERFECTION in our terms. We use terminology in our hobby that isn't always "exactly right" for one reason or another, but we've dragged many of our terms along across decades or more.

We know that "single action" means the trigger does only a single job (drop the hammer) but in actuality, it does more than that in most handguns. In the subject 469, it also defeats the firing pin lock.

Back in the 1980's when the Glock blew up in popularity, they had to think up a NEW term for the trigger/fire control system. At first they called it "safe action" and eventually they christened it "striker fired." But where the rubber meets the road, the Glock trigger (and most Tupperware guns) takes an already half-cocked (or pre-tensioned) spring-loaded firing pin and it draws it further rearward and releases it. Which is AWFULLY similar to the ages-old "double action."

With most striker fire Tupperware, the trigger first defeats a dingus that would otherwise prevent trigger travel, it then adds more energy to a striker, it then defeats a firing pin lock, and ultimately releases the striker, allowing the pistol to fire. And in a classic double actuon revolver, the trigger does even more, advancing a cylinder, locking out a cylinder release, adding potential energy to a hammer, locking a cylinder from rotation, moving a hammer block or transfer bar, and finally... releasing a hammer in hopes of firing a round.

Double action?! Maybe we should re-name it to PolyAction!

Or better yet... know going in that our terminology is far from perfect but typically, it works. Much like we all know that .38's aren't 0.38" but these days, we don't fret over it. Much.
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Old 06-12-2018, 02:41 PM
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Made some hammers for my 469, not as pronounced as the 59/39 hammers but just enough to grab. Did not like the stock ones.

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Old 06-13-2018, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donk52 View Post
Made some hammers for my 469, not as pronounced as the 59/39 hammers but just enough to grab. Did not like the stock ones.

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N-I-C-E!
Did you make those from scratch?
They look factory. You must have a pretty good machine shop.
Bet you could sell them. I'd like one for my 457.
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