A Grail Gun - LNIB 845

[cherrypointmarine]

First off , thanks to the member who pointed me in the right direction . I picked this jewel up at my FFL yesterday . In my excitement , you know how it is when you get a grail gun , I had to share it with someone right away . I texted some pics to Sevens , he's helped me so much chasing S&Ws .

When I opened it , after my FFL telling me what a beautiful S&W I now own , I said to myself , this things never been shot . I can't say BNIB because it hasn't been in my hands since new , but I can say LNIB . Then I cleaned it and there were no wear marks .

An older gentleman put this and a 945 on commission , and I was the lucky one . I was told he was tired of holding on to them , and I'm guessing his kids didn't want them . Or maybe he didn't have kids and wanted them to go to a good home . Well , they did . Or at least the 845 . I'm finding it hard to resist , if that 945 looks like the 845 , it might not be there much longer .

[Sevens]

I hope that gorgeous pistol shoots as well as my "shooter grade" second run Model of 1998! What a fantastic pistol.

[4T5GUY]

Very nice addition.

I know how you feel. I waited for a long time to find one that was in perfect shape AND was an excellent price. (I’d rather go without than pay too much for anything.)

You probably know this but getting a letter from Earl Minot at Lew Horton is something you should do. He has to charge $25.00 for each one now but that’s cheap for the validity/history it brings to the firearm. With the fee you get an e-copy and a mailed hard copy that’s actually signed by Earl.

Jim

[colt_saa]

Congratulations on finding one of Smith and Wesson's best shooting auto-loaders

[SWSC]

You are the lucky one. Great find! Seldom seen.

[18DAI]

Congrats my friend! She is a beauty! I look forward to your range report! Regards 18DAI

[Jeppo]

By complete coincidence, I saw the 945 you’re mentioning. I can confirm the condition is almost as good as your new 845. In other words, I inspected both.

Give that 845 a good cleaning, there could be some Jeppo drool still on it.

Congrats on selecting that amazing 845. I came very close to grabbing the 945 myself. As luck would have it, I was offered two others a few days later and picked them up yesterday. I think I’m probably doing the same happy dance as you.

[vigil617]

Wow, MIke, that's an epic find!

I'm sure the decision whether to shoot it will be difficult, given its condition. I don't envy you that choice, but I do envy you finding such a relatively rare and unquestionably outstanding pistol. It looks absolutely pristine. Nicely done!

[the big guy]

Bought my first at a LGS for 750.00, NIB. It had sat in a display case for a couple years. My shooting buddy calls it my cheater gun, it shoots so well but looks so plain. Recently bought a .45 Target Champion(845) that had been exported and returned to the US. That might be rare, don't know how many crossed the ocean both ways.

[The_Truth]

What makes this gun special? Genuinely curious

[Sevens]

Originally Posted by The_Truth

What makes this gun special? Genuinely curiois

This is a Performance Center Limited target pistol. It's the size and weight of a 4506 but the pistol is entirely hand-fitted. If you've never handled nor fired a true Performance Center 5 or 6-inch Limited target pistol, it's something to be experienced.

It is built to the same level of fitting, quality and precision as the 952, the 3566 Limited and the PPC-9. This is without a doubt the finest .45cal pistol that Smith & Wesson EVER made for retail sale, and nobody in their right mind would argue that point.

585 of these were made for the North American market across two series between 1995 and 1998. This one is from the first series. They made many more of the first run than the second run, but these first run 845's are better looking pistols. It sold for just under $1,500 when it was offered exclusively through Lew Horton.

I've said it before... but it was my 845 that absolutely changed the direction and focus for what I do, what I collect and what I truly love in firearms.

If you love Smith & Wesson metal framed semi-automatic pistols, Mike nailed it in the subject line. The 845 is the epitome of a modern grail gun.

[Erocksmash]

That's awesome brother congratulations... she's in good hands now!

I wouldn't mind getting my hands on PC shorty 9/.40

[cherrypointmarine]

Thanks for all the comments guys . When I first started hereon the semi side , Sevens started me with a 639 . It's been uphill or downhill , depends on how you look at it . It's been nothing but enjoyable , between the "hunt" and having the enjoyment of meeting a bunch of friends from across the US .

[Sevens]

The Shorty 40 may be the easiest route to getting your first ever true Performance Center pistol. They made a bunch of the Shorty 40 and guns chambered in .40cal these days are a much tougher sell so prices are stable, even on the Shorty 40. If you are serious about chasing one, Gunbroker is the place to shop.

The Shorty9 and Shorty45 are different animals when it comes to prices, be warned.

And not to come off like a jerk (this happens more than I'd like...) but at the same time, to be clear when we are discussing these elite pistols, the Shorty 9/40/45 guns are phenomenal little handguns and they also ooze fitment and precision. But there is a VERY clear distinction between the stubby alloy frame DA/SA guns with combat sights and the true Limited series target guns.

The big, big difference is in the feel of the trigger. The single action trigger break in the Limited target guns is far beyond even the single action trigger of the DA/SA alloy frame compacts.

I'm trying to say that if you have never handled a true Performance Center pistol from this era, one of the Shorty9/40/45 pistols is one heckuva pistol but you are only half way to the true greatness that came out of the Performance Center.

[Erocksmash]

Originally Posted by Sevens

The Shorty 40 may be the easiest route to getting your first ever true Performance Center pistol. They made a bunch of the Shorty 40 and guns chambered in .40cal these days are a much tougher sell so prices are stable, even on the Shorty 40. If you are serious about chasing one, Gunbroker is the place to shop.

The Shorty9 and Shorty45 are different animals when it comes to prices, be warned.

And not to come off like a jerk (this happens more than I'd like...) but at the same time, to be clear when we are discussing these elite pistols, the Shorty 9/40/45 guns are phenomenal little handguns and they also ooze fitment and precision. But there is a VERY clear distinction between the stubby alloy frame DA/SA guns with combat sights and the true Limited series target guns.

The big, big difference is in the feel of the trigger. The single action trigger break in the Limited target guns is far beyond even the single action trigger of the DA/SA alloy frame compacts.

I'm trying to say that if you have never handled a true Performance Center pistol from this era, one of the Shorty9/40/45 pistols is one heckuva pistol but you are only half way to the true greatness that came out of the Performance Center.

I see a shorty .40 from time to time and I think I gotta have it ... but I've always gravitated towards the 10mm guns (I dont think those were ever a PC gun?) The shorty 9 I've never seen until coming over to the semi side and started going threw old posts..

[Sevens]

Originally Posted by Erocksmash

I see a shorty .40 from time to time and I think I gotta have it ... but I've always gravitated towards the 10mm guns (I dont think those were ever a PC gun?) The shorty 9 I've never seen until coming over to the semi side and started going threw old posts..

I grew up reading Jeff Cooper and I wrote a term paper as a Junior in high school on the subject of the Colt Delta Elite. Heh, I interviewed our family friend and kitchen table FFL holder who owned a first-run Delta Elite back in 1985 for that paper! So I was a 10mm guy before I had the money (or the age, legally) to even buy handguns.

Most of us 10mm guys from the 1980's grew to immediately and passionately LOATHE the .40 S&W right from it's conception. I can make a slew of historically accurate arguments of why I did and why many of us did hate the .40cal, but time has had a way of chilling me out in a big way.

Here we are three decades later and I've given the .40cal a real chance and I've grown to enjoy it. It's neither fair nor accurate to look at the .40 S&W/10mm like a .38 Special/.357 Magnum, because that comparison is misleading. (not that you did that, simply that is happens often) With the .38/.357, you are literally talking double the pressure and the distance between the two is massive. With the .40cal and 10mm, the performance difference is a lot closer. Top end .40cal loads will easily eclipse some of the lousy factory ammo that was passed off as 10mm for years. Recently, factory 10mm ammo has gotten back to what 10mm was meant to be, giving 10mm a real purpose once again. But the .40cal is still a very good round.

You are correct in that the S&W Performance Center never produced a semi-auto in 10mm. I have seen a couple old stock pistols with some scroll lettering on the side that S&W has dubbed "Performance Center Classic" but these should never be confused with real PC guns. They aren't fitted nor accurized like PC pistols.

[Erocksmash]

Originally Posted by Sevens

I grew up reading Jeff Cooper and I wrote a term paper as a Junior in high school on the subject of the Colt Delta Elite. Heh, I interviewed our family friend and kitchen table FFL holder who owned a first-run Delta Elite back in 1985 for that paper! So I was a 10mm guy before I had the money (or the age, legally) to even buy handguns.

Most of us 10mm guys from the 1980's grew to immediately and passionately LOATHE the .40 S&W right from it's conception. I can make a slew of historically accurate arguments of why I did and why many of us did hate the .40cal, but time has had a way of chilling me out in a big way.

Here we are three decades later and I've given the .40cal a real chance and I've grown to enjoy it. It's neither fair nor accurate to look at the .40 S&W/10mm like a .38 Special/.357 Magnum, because that comparison is misleading. (not that you did that, simply that is happens often) With the .38/.357, you are literally talking double the pressure and the distance between the two is massive. With the .40cal and 10mm, the performance difference is a lot closer. Top end .40cal loads will easily eclipse some of the lousy factory ammo that was passed off as 10mm for years. Recently, factory 10mm ammo has gotten back to what 10mm was meant to be, giving 10mm a real purpose once again. But the .40cal is still a very good round.

You are correct in that the S&W Performance Center never produced a semi-auto in 10mm. I have seen a couple old stock pistols with some scroll lettering on the side that S&W has dubbed "Performance Center Classic" but these should never be confused with real PC guns. They aren't fitted nor accurized like PC pistols.

I am in fact the exact opposite growing up, I loved the .40S&W my first hand gun was a glock 22 .40S&W.

I new nothing of the 10mm until about 2 years ago ... mind you I'm younger in age compared to some in the forum and most of my vestments were into plastic... and my die hard love for the .357magnum round. Until playing around on the interweb and came across an article called "10mm Thors Hammer!" I am unable to find the article anymore. It really peaked my intrest in what I personally call my 2 favorite calibers 10mm/.357( it's really a rabbit hole I've fallen down hahahah)

[Sevens]

Did you know... that Glock STOLE a couple of "not yet on the market .40 S&W" loaded rounds from the Smith & Wesson table at a trade show introducing the 4006 before it was commercially available, and used those rounds to develop the Glock 22, which Glock rushed to market and actually made available for sale before the Smith & Wesson 4006?

The first available .40 S&W pistol on the commercial market was actually a Glock. Arrrrrgh!

[Erocksmash]

Originally Posted by Sevens

Did you know... that Glock STOLE a couple of "not yet on the market .40 S&W" loaded rounds from the Smith & Wesson table at a trade show introducing the 4006 before it was commercially available, and used those rounds to develop the Glock 22, which Glock rushed to market and actually made available for sale before the Smith & Wesson 4006?

The first available .40 S&W pistol on the commercial market was actually a Glock. Arrrrrgh!

Wow, I did not know that sir what a shame.

I've since sold that g22 off had a g23 and a 27... the misses grabbed the 27 and qualified with it the first time she shot it so she keeps that as a primary until I let her touch the 1013 (I hope she likes it).

Before the Glock.... my biggest fascination was/still is today with the 4006, which is why I grabbed the one we have recently talked about...

[joedegs]

Originally Posted by Sevens

The Shorty 40 may be the easiest route to getting your first ever true Performance Center pistol. They made a bunch of the Shorty 40 and guns chambered in .40cal these days are a much tougher sell so prices are stable, even on the Shorty 40. If you are serious about chasing one, Gunbroker is the place to shop.

The Shorty9 and Shorty45 are different animals when it comes to prices, be warned.

And not to come off like a jerk (this happens more than I'd like...) but at the same time, to be clear when we are discussing these elite pistols, the Shorty 9/40/45 guns are phenomenal little handguns and they also ooze fitment and precision. But there is a VERY clear distinction between the stubby alloy frame DA/SA guns with combat sights and the true Limited series target guns.

The big, big difference is in the feel of the trigger. The single action trigger break in the Limited target guns is far beyond even the single action trigger of the DA/SA alloy frame compacts.

I'm trying to say that if you have never handled a true Performance Center pistol from this era, one of the Shorty9/40/45 pistols is one heckuva pistol but you are only half way to the true greatness that came out of the Performance Center.

So Sevens, where would you say the SD PC semi-autos fall,(9mm,40s&w&356tsw)?? Not a shorty and not a limited?? This goes for the IDPA 9mm PC as well.

[Sevens]

Originally Posted by joedegs

So Sevens, where would you say the SD PC semi-autos fall,(9mm,40s&w&356tsw)?? Not a shorty and not a limited?? This goes for the IDPA 9mm PC as well.

Fantastic question! I'm fortunate to own a SD-9, and I'm sad that I don't have one of the fantastic DPA-series guns.

In my learned, hands-on opinion (definitely an opinion!), these pistols have the same totally subline slide-to-frame fit and feel and they equal the ability for accuracy and they have better sights for target work than a fixed Novak (if you have the small LPA adjustable as my SD-9 does) but the trigger is pretty much exactly the same as a Shorty9/40/45. It's a great trigger for a DA/SA gun, but it really pales in comparison to the trigger on the Limited target guns.

If we were to put these great guns on tiers, the lowest tier of (true) PC would be the Shorty series. The middle tier would be exactly what you just brought up -- the steel frame Stocking Dealer series (and the 3566 Compact!) and the DPA-series DA/SA guns. We might also include the full size DA/SA guns such as the Tactical 40 and the Comp-40, but admittedly I haven't had the pleasure to handle those gems either.

At the top are the Limited guns. Somewhere beyond the top would be the extremely rare and very specialized early PC guns such as the Briley Custom and anything the Performance Center made to order way back in the early 1990's.

[Patrick L]

I too was unfamiliar with this model. Forgive my ignorance, is it traditional DA/SA, or DAO?

[ISCS Yoda]

Let me say that while I admit unfamiliarity with the Model 845 I can unequivocally state that I find nothing better in automatic pistols than the S&W 3rd Gen guns. All of them are RIGHT as far as I am concerned, proper traditional double action, decockers, etc. I can't say I know them all, what a giant fib that would be if I did, but everyone I have ever seen has been ideal and if the 845 is a custom version of a 3rd Gen from the PC then even better! WELL DONE, says I!

To paraphrase: I spent many a formative gun year reading Jeff Cooper..................

Colt Delta Elite

My biggest problem with Colonel Cooper, actually my only problem, was that I thoroughly disagreed with his complete enamoration (yes, that's a word) and glamorization of the 1911 pistol in any configuration, 45 ACP and 10mm especially. I have never found any Model of the revered 1911 to be a better performer than a 3rd Gen FOR MY PURPOSES. YMMV, of course. And I know it will be true for many of y'all who adore 1911s. I happily dumped mine awhile back. But if I had to keep just one pistol it would be a 3rd Gen (or even a Beretta M92) before any 1911.

Never mind Glocks. Ick.

[Sevens]

Originally Posted by Patrick L

I too was unfamiliar with this model. Forgive my ignorance, is it traditional DA/SA, or DAO?

The 845 is a pure target gun sleeper that looks like an average range gun. It isn't double action nor double action only, it is a single action pistol with a simple left side only hammer block manual safety.

As for my errant Jeff Cooper thread drift I'll just say that if you pick and choose the good Cooper bits while sifting out some of the fluff and testosterone, he added a lot to modern gunning for sure. In my opinion, for all that he brought to the table, nothing matches the absolute value of his succint Four Rules and though he brought so much more to the table, nothing matches the value of his Four Rules.

[ISCS Yoda]

The 845 is a pure target gun sleeper that looks like an average range gun. It isn't double action nor double action only, it is a single action pistol with a simple left side only hammer block manual safety.

Amazingly interesting. Just for fun can you or anyone explain the "single action" versus "double action only" of this particular model? Since it LOOKS LIKE a TDA I simply need to know this interesting fact.

---

I have NO ARGUMENT with that tribute to Colonel Cooper and his 4 rules.

If every gun owner followed them we'd never have ADs/NDs, etc. Over the weekend in the DFW area several children were shot and all of them involved firearms rule breaking, not malice.

[toddcfii]

1. I am a big fan of PC autos. I do love the target guns and have owned or currently own a 6 inch PPC9, two 5 inch PPC9s, a 6 inch 952-2 Masterpiece Wishco variant, a 5 inch 952-2 and a 9 Recon as well as some PC revolvers. So I have a little experience in these guns.

2. I have competed at the PPC Nationals. I was a firearms instructor for the US Customs Service and the FBI. So I think I know a little about what works for target shooting and combat shooting.

3. I own or have owned a few stock, modified and custom 1911s and have competed with them.

4. My OPINION given the above is that a well sorted 1911 is superior for competition and target work. The triggers can break like glass and have a straight back pull that aids in a repeatable trigger pull. However, most out of the box 1911s are not well sorted out and are not great defensive guns because of the need to train on them more specifically than DA/SAs and DAOs. But a custom 1911 trigger is sublime and they can be as accurate as a hand gun can be. The closest thing to that is a PC SA trigger and the accuracy that comes from a Briley bushing. Additionally I feel there are things about PC autos that cannot be quantified that make them more desirable than almost any 1911.

5. I believe those who denigrate 1911s have not shot really good ones.

[Patrick L]

Oh, so sort of like an even better version of the 745? I have seen those, and even fired one.

[Sevens]

Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda

Amazingly interesting. Just for fun can you or anyone explain the "single action" versus "double action only" of this particular model? Since it LOOKS LIKE a TDA I simply need to know this interesting fact.

It's easy, much like a revolver -- a double action trigger is a trigger that can complete TWO tasks. Cocking the hammer and releasing the hammer. A single action pistol such as the subject 845 has a trigger that is able to accomplish just one function-- tripping the sear that releases the hammer.

To ready a single action pistol for live fire (be it an 845 or a 1911), racking a round in to the chamber will cock the hammer, your single action trigger will release that hammer to fire.

[Sevens]

Originally Posted by Patrick L

Oh, so sort of like an even better version of the 745? I have seen those, and even fired one.

The 745 is a fantastic gun and at their price point, they offer a heckuva value. I love them enough that I own two and I'm on the lookout for another!

However, the 845 is way, WAY better than simply an improved 745 in my opinion. It's in another class entirely.

[growr]

Refresh my memory on the differences of an 845 and the 945......I have only seen, felt and shot a 745.

Randy

[Sevens]

The 845 is basically what happens when elite craftsmen patterned a single stack, single action only .45 after the 4506 but put the entire thing together by hand fitting the slide to frame, the barrel to the slide and making all the small parts result in a pistol that handles like a Model 52.

The 945 is often described as a hybrid, a PC gun that meshes a 3rd Gen style top end with a 3rd Gen kind of frame and using more of a 1911-style of fire control parts, complete with a 1911-esque grip safety.

The slide to frame fit, feel and precision of the 845 and 945 are identical. No full production guns feel the way these PC Limited guns feel when you run the slide on the frame.

[CALREB]

I love the P/C semi autos they are great guns and during their day they were great for PPC and target shooting. still are. They were an unbelievable amount of quality for the price, not too ammo sensitive and functioned great. They also mimicked the doublestack S/A service pistols most of us carried and shot, so they felt very familiar. I still like the lever type triggers better than any other single action guns. The D/A guns are great but work on any S/W semi auto and you can get the same or even a better trigger. In my experience the 3.5 /4 and 5 inch guns all shoot the same out to 25 yards, sub 1" groups being pretty common but the shorter the barrel and less the gun weighs you had to concentrate harder. The longer sight radius being way more forgiving . At first on the short guns ,we added Novak fixed target sights ( like a 745) and taller fronts to get a better sight picture ( lots of filing being involved) on the sights, not the guns. But that was about all the customizing you could do on any of the guns.
After a couple years the 1911 companies caught up.In 2000 I had Springfield custom build me a 6" longslide, bull barrel, tungsten guide rod, grip shim plates, lever trigger in 9mm. I wont say it was or is any more accurate that my 6" PPC 9, but it is way more forgiving to shoot due to weight. PPC 9 is about 46 oz. the Sp Custom is 60 oz almost a pound heavier , shooting 147 feels like a 22 almost. Some guys also added ribs which made them even heavier. I did shoot slightly higher scores at 50 yards with the 1911, again I think due to the weight factor.
At the time the gun was built I bought a second PPC 9 6" and the SP Custom was almost exactly twice what a PPC 9 was . Funny now the PPC 9s are worth twice or more than the SP custom, funny how that works out.

[The_Truth]

Originally Posted by Sevens

This is a Performance Center Limited target pistol. It's the size and weight of a 4506 but the pistol is entirely hand-fitted. If you've never handled nor fired a true Performance Center 5 or 6-inch Limited target pistol, it's something to be experienced.

It is built to the same level of fitting, quality and precision as the 952, the 3566 Limited and the PPC-9. This is without a doubt the finest .45cal pistol that Smith & Wesson EVER made for retail sale, and nobody in their right mind would argue that point.

585 of these were made for the North American market across two series between 1995 and 1998. This one is from the first series. They made many more of the first run than the second run, but these first run 845's are better looking pistols. It sold for just under $1,500 when it was offered exclusively through Lew Horton.

I've said it before... but it was my 845 that absolutely changed the direction and focus for what I do, what I collect and what I truly love in firearms.

If you love Smith & Wesson metal framed semi-automatic pistols, Mike nailed it in the subject line. The 845 is the epitome of a modern grail gun.

Thank you for the reply! Very informative