While primarily dealing with the Chiefs Special 9mm, this thread will also deal with other aspects of small 9mms in general or anything related that you may want to interject. I didnt want to clutter the other fine CS9 Mods thread that is currently going on.

I was very late to the Chiefs Special semi auto line of guns. I had a black CS9 several years ago when I was still on the job. But at the time, while it was a fine pistol in its own right, it didnt really do anything that my 39XX guns werent already doing, for me. So I sold it to a member here who needed it for his daughter.

Fast forward a few years and I aquired another black CS9 LNIB. Being retired from Investigations, but still employed in the criminal justice system and armed by statute, I needed a deep concealment pistol. One that could be carried under a judges robe or T-shirt. Or even pocket carried.

For me, 380 is not an option. I worked robbery homicide cases for almost 20 years in the District Attorneys Office. Very few of the GSW homicide cases I worked were done with a 380. I can only recall 2. And that is 2 out of over 200. Yes, shot placement trumps all. Put a 380 through their eye socket and they will not know that it wasnt a 45. But for me, 9mm is as low as I go.

And a word about 9mms. The hype about 9mm rounds, lately, is that the FBI has gone to 9mm - so it must be a death ray. Correct me if Im wrong, but isnt that the same FBI who scorned the 9mm round after a famous unfortunate incident in Miami? The 9mm was not at fault in that famous debacle. The FBI tactics were. The reason the feds are going to the 9mm is primarily because it is cheap. And it is also easier to get a short weak handed recruit who has no gun experience to shoot a minimum qualifying score of 70.

Yes, the 9mm round has been improved over the last decade. But having spoken directly with some of the folks who improved them, they also improved all their other rounds too. At the same time.

But back to the CS9. While I carried 45s most of my career, I have no problem with a 9mm. But when choosing a 9mm, you must be selective about what round you stoke it with. Moreso than when using a 45. I chose Winchester Ranger 147 grain RA9B. Because I watched a Winchester rep demo some out of short barrel 9mm off duty guns. He told us that they designed the round with sub 4 inch barrel guns in mind. During the demo it averaged 15 to 16 inches penetration and .61 expansion. Good enough for government work. Federal HST is another good round that works out of short barrel 9mms. My CS9 shoots both the 124 and 147 standard pressure HST to POA.

I was always envious of those who carried the light weight J-frames and sub compact 380 guns. Envious of the small size and light weight NOT the caliber or capacity. I prefer 8 rounds of 9mm JHP to 5 rounds of.........anything.

In the CS9 I have my small light weight, flat, easily concealed and carried gun. A pistol for those rare times I "can't have a gun" like at Church or social functions with non gun folks. It is a 380 size pistol with 9mm ballistics.

And the CS9 points and handles exceptionally well. It is fast out of a holster and points right where you want it too. I have modified mine with the excellent TercGen grips. IMO the CS series guns should have come from the factory wearing these. With the TercGen grip and a flat baseplate on the mag, I can pocket carry my CS9. But that is something I rarely do, other than when I'm at the pool or the beach. I prefer IWB or on the belt carry.

I have a DeSantis Nemesis for IWB as well as a Cozy partner. For belt carry a Don Hume JIT slide for a S&W 3913 works very well. An 8-round 3913 mag is what I carry for a reload.

I have had a very good experience with the CS9 over the last couple of years. So much so that I bid on and won a stainless variant this past weekend. It has the metal Novak sights and an ambi safety. I am left handed, but I dont use the decocker safety as a safety. I carry in the holster safety off. So this new to me stainless CS9 may go to BMCM for conversion to a single sided safety.

Anyways, those are my current thoughts on what has rapidly become one of my favorite carry guns. I expect my stainless CS9 will be as good in all respects as my black carbon steel slided version and even better in the corrosion resistance category. I will post a range report here after I have a chance to run a few hundred rounds through it. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

As usual, a thought provoking post that will probably end up costing me a bundle.

When you get that new piece, I know of a local range with very user friendly fees.

Thank you Jeppo! I enjoyed shooting with you!

Don't worry, it is only money. Look at it this way, you could be spending thousands on 1911s. And then thousands more getting one to run. Best regards, 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Funny, just yesterday I was talking to my LGS manager about a stainless Chief's Special. Back in Sept, 2015, I asked them to find a used 45 that gets traded in. They have my contact info on file.Then I thought I would accept a 9mm. But it's so close in size to my 3913, why bother. The most I would pay would be $400, because I would have to add the cost of stainless [flash chromed] 5906 trigger parts which would make the gun acceptable to me. But he told me they have never taken in a Chief's Special. But also, over the years, they have taken in some amazing trades, of which I have purchased a few. So I'm still waiting for a stainless CS45. GARY

18DAI and I have been down this road together before.......

As a big fan of the 3913/14/NLs I was excited when the CS9 was announced .......... looking forward to a sub-compact version of my favorite concealed carry gun since 1990.

When I finally saw/held one I was 'underwhelmed" to say the least......

As the owner of more than a few of the uncommon 7 round 39xx magazines with the flat steel bottom.....(which I'd been using for years as my primary carry magazine) the CS9 was as tall as my 3913NL with the 7 round magazine. With an 8round flat bottom spare mag.

The only grips available for years were the stock Hogue rubber...... while feeling good in my hand ...... I knew the rubber would tend to cling to my cover garment....... my 3913 wore checkered Hogue wood grips which were hand filling without clinging to my shirt/jacket.

While the barrel/slide were 1/2" shorter than my 3913's the slide is 'blocky" and IMO ugly compared to the 3913s. Further I carried mine IWB in Milt Spark's holster so the shorter barrel/slide had no practical effect. Also the slightly longer slide of the 39xx guns helps stabilizes it IWB.

Pocket carry in my Wrangler jeans has never been a practical carry option.

Weight difference was only about 1-2oz. IIRC.

All that said if I was starting from scratch; with today's options for grips and mag bases........ I would be tempted to go with the CS9 vs. the 3913/14/NL. Especially given that my first 3913 replaced my .380 PPK; and the CS9 would be closer in overall size to the PPK.

But with a primary 3913NL a backup..... and a backup to the backup..... along with a couple of 3914s........

For me like the 4516 (which was way too heavy ) the CS9 is a great gun ....... but doesn't quit meet my personal needs for a small single stack concealed carry 9mm .

If we all liked the same thing; we'd all be carrying the same gun!!!!!

Now you make me want to find a stainless CS9, have it dehorned, and use it to replace my Bersa Thunder 380CC.

Dang you!

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Can open, worms everywhere.

That would be a great move................

Add me to the list of “this post is gonna cost me more money”.

Between this and seeing Mercs polishing job, I’m now on the hunt for stainless CS9 to dehorn and melt instead of the near mint blued one I lucked into a few weeks ago.

Yep count me in for a blued one too. Had a hard time making up my mind back in 99 when I ordered the stainless. Can't explain it but they have a "special" look to em. Have never seen a used one up for sale in the LGS around me.

I’ve had a run of incredble luck locally the past couple of months.
Bought 5 guns that I haven’t seen in person in years.
I have a post forthcoming about them.

I bought a CS9 a month ago. What a fantastic pistol. None of that Failure to feed or failure to eject or stovepipe stuff that has happened on my plastic pistols. My first DA/SA gun but so much better than a striker fired with or without a safety. It carries great and shoots better. The ultimate CCW pistol as far as i am concerned. Just doesn't get any better than that. I think it weighs less than 2 ounces more than my shield 9mm.

Well get them while you can fellas! Its only money and you will make more. But barring something unforseen there wont be anymore CS9s or CS45s.

Shame too. Because if they would make a CS9, even the CS9D DAO model, they could sell a bunch of them. People come into the LGS where I work looking for small light weight 9mms. Quite a few of them ask about metal framed guns. A few for hammer fired metal framed guns. Everyone who examines or shoots my CS9 goes off to the auction boards in search of one.

And these days, there are some real deals on CS9s on one of the big auction boards. All stainless guns, so far. Some appear to be LE trade ins with Novak night sights. I only paid $355 for mine. I stole it.

And another aspect I forgot to mention about the CS9 is that it is a fun gun to shoot. Easy to get hits with, mild in recoil using range fodder 9mm. Ive yet to let anyone shoot it who didnt like it.

Great trigger, good accuracy and very reliable. And looks good doing all that too. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

I seem to be an anomaly, I don't love my CS9. The grip is too short and it's too chubby to carry comfortably, and I think the action is clunky. Gasp, heretic! Yeah, sorry.

However... I have NO plans to sell it. I don't dislike it enough to let it go, and I like DA/SA and 9mm.

Great thread and discussion on one of my favorite 3rd Gen models! I own both a stainless and a blued CS9, and they replaced my Kahr MK9 for Summertime deep concealment. Both wear Trijicon SA29 night sights, and of course a set of my slim TercGen grips (along with some grip tape).

Completely agree with 18DAI's assessment of these fine pistols, they are accurate, light, have mild recoil, and are 100% reliable with all types of ammo I've tried. I personally go with the HST +P for carry, either in 124 or 147 grain. Good idea to stock up on recoil springs with these guns as well, as only S&W makes them and who knows for how much longer...

I think the shorter barreled 9mm like the heavier rounds more than the lighter ones. As I've noted before, my non rail 3913TSW shoots best with 147 grain, is acceptable with 124gr, but shoots very low with 115gr.

I'd have to evaluate the grips in the real world before I decided on what, if anything, I'd do with them.

I just have to keep my eyes open for one at a reasonable price.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

For defensive shooting purposes at 18-25ft, I haven't noticed enough of a difference between 124gr and 147gr out of any of my guns. If I do my part, both weights stay within the black on the 5-bullseye targets, and both wind up where I want them to be when shooting faster on the ANT-4 silhouette targets.

I like the lighter 124gr in my guns for weight consideration if packed in my bag at work or tucked in my workout shorts going to the gym. I stoke 147gr other times when considering the fact that they will be sub-sonic if used indoors for hearing preservation.

With the sub-compact 3" barrels, I would only carry Federal HST (or Winchester RA9B, if I had any) in 147gr. Too many other types of 147gr have shown to be unreliable in online get tests out of 3" barrels.

Mine arrived at the shop Friday while I was working. It has Novak Night sights installed. BONUS! They are dim, but I can see them on the night stand in the dark. Which is about all the use I have for them.

The gun must have been issued to an administrator. Filthy dirty, but shot very little. Not even a mark on the tang from the hammer. It took me almost 2 hours to clean it.

Some holster wear and a little finish worn off under the slide stop. Good trigger in DA and SA. I replaced the recoil spring. The Hogue grip screws were not rusted, just caked with grime. They cleaned up nicely.

After cleaning and lubing I checked function with the pencil test. Cock the pistol, drop a number 2 pencil down the barrel - eraser first - decock the pistol and the pencil should not move. insures that the decock/safety functions. Then I fired two shots into the clearing tank to make sure it goes bang. Two bangs, no worries.

I will fire a couple of hundred rounds through it Tuesday on my way to work. Checking reliability and how accurate it is.

I am very pleased with this little stainless 9mm. A lot of gun for the money! Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Uh, maybe you should stop at the range!

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Can open, worms everywhere.

Yes, I noticed that too.

I guess they do things a bit different from MA down in NC!

Pictures, we want pictures.

Just in case another forum member were able to pick up a CS9 from the same source, in more or less the same condition, where should he/she focus those two cleaning hours? Was there a lot of work to be done on the barrel or was there something else major?

On my way this morning to the big-box office supply store. All I could find here was #3 pencils.

I pocket carried the CS9 and CS45 for over 15 years with no problems. Fortunately, I have not even had to brandish them yet (Maybe big and ugly is good front line protection?), but they also are accurate and fun to shoot at the range. I think these guns were under rated during their production years. I still prefer them to the small polymer Guards and M&Ps. I hope that you enjoy safely carrying and shooting your CS9 (at the range).

Attached Images

Tucson 297.jpg (64.9 KB, 149 views)

Okay, some other random pics of mine ...

CS9


CS9 and G26


CS9 & 642


CS9 & 3913



CS45 in Hume H726

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

In first and last CS9 pictures, is that the pre rail 3913TSW magazine base plate? Or is it just the angle of the photo?

Thanks.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

Good eye.

Yep, in the first pic (CS9) that's one of the original 3913TSW butt plates.

In the last pic (CS45) it's one of the original 4513TSW butt plates.

Just for the 9mm butt plates I've used ...

In this pic, from L-to-R, standard curved, standard flat, and original 3913TSW butt plate.


Standard flat and original TSW.


L-R, TSW, standard flat and standard curved.


Seated in gun ...

Standard flat.



Curved.


TSW/wide.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Thanks. The one thing I didn't like about the CS9 was the "hook" on the curved base plate. I always felt that it was causing my shirt to ride up.

Of course, in a pocket, that would be less of an issue.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

Jeppo the grip frame, mag well, backstrap under the grips, grips, grip screws, sear and sear pin are what took the most time to clean. The frame had black marks under the trigger guard and dustcover. They took a bit of time to clean too. But they came off.

Im pretty sure it was not dried coffee and powdered sugar, but it was a finegrime that adhered to......well....everything. And I found shavings and tiny pieces of that cheap "pleather" that Safariland use to use in the late 80s and 90s on their LE holsters. Well, they used it till agencies stopped buying them.

Someone wanted to see pics. Here they are. It is wearing the rounded TSW mag baseplate as that is the one that works for pocket carry, for me. The finger lift mag snagging on the draw. Again, for me. Regards 18DAI

Attached Images

	CS9S1.jpg (83.6 KB, 209 views)
	Cs9s2.jpg (75.5 KB, 174 views)
	Cs9s3.jpg (66.5 KB, 161 views)

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Wow, that came out nice!

I used a red colored penetrative CLP that we get from Nighthawk. Soaked it in that while I was at work.

Cleaned the barrel and slide with Breakfree and lubed with TW25b grease.

After the grips were clean I sprayed them with 409 and wiped them dry with a micro fiber towel. New recoil spring and its GTG.

Well........except for the outstanding TercGen grips that I have on order. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Very nice.

wyo-man

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Live free or die

I called the 1-800 number today. My stainless CS9 VJD serial prefix shipped in September 2001.

Doesn't look 17 years old. Looks pretty good for those many years. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Mine should arrive Monday. Already carved out four hours that evening for cleaning (if it took you 2, I'll need at least twice as long).

Picked mine up today. There was plenty to clean but the previous owner wasn't as kind to it as was that of 18DAI's. Anyway, I'm a happy camper.

Congrats Jeppo!

Excellent 9mm CARRY guns these CS9s. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Maybe somebody should suggest that S&W use some of that surplus manufacturing talent (surplus because revolvers aren't selling and plastic guns don't require much talent) to reintroduce a limited series of their best metal semi-autos. I'll bet they'd sell AND be profitable.

Attached Images

IMG_5954.jpg (143.9 KB, 82 views)

I'll sign that petition.

Thank you sir. I've just now emailed James Debney to share the idea. I'm curious to find out whether I hear back.

I'll be hoping for the best, but not holding my breath, so to speak.

From what I've seen, S&W is still pumping out large numbers of J frame guns. They ARE selling a lot of 1911s. Plus, those plastic guns have slides and barrels that need some machining. K, L, N, and X frames are being built, but not in the quantities that they were at one time.

If that's not enough, S&W puts their forge and CNC machines to work making products for companies like Harley Davidson when not making gun parts.

While both 3913 and 4513 versions would be nice, I don't expect to see them being made again. Too bad, because we'd have a source of at least some parts and maybe even could have an older gun with a damaged frame replaced.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

While it would be nice to see S&W return to offering equivalent metal TDA pistols to compete with the better models produced by SIG, I'd not be inclined to hold my breath.

The drop of firearms sales from this time last year to this year has been significant. The strong elements of continuing sales in the non-governmental market remains pistols and long guns, although revolvers still seem to enjoy their usual market share. The M&P's are strong sellers.

S&W had enough interest in their higher revolver lines to expand back into offering them with wood grip stocks again (last year's report), and the J-frames are still reportedly a very strong seller.

In order to re-enter the 3rd gen pistol market again, S&W would probably have to keep using their Houlton plant for production and repair. That would cut into their 1911 and .22 production.

A PC version of a select number of 3rd gen models would be interesting, but no doubt expensive. It would also cut into their current PC revolver efforts.

Renewing 3rd gen production would drain money needed for other lines, as they'd have to reinvigorate their vendor supplies of parts (and no doubt make some further revisions to design and manufacturing), as well as expand their parts inventory for them again.

Never say never, but also don't hold your breath. Cross your fingers and hope, if you wish.

Maybe bear in mind that at one point S&W told some of their remaining longtime 3rd gen gov users, meaning NYPD, the RCMP and the CHP that they were not going to make any more of their guns, and they'd have to choose something else. Seemed pretty definitive, at the time.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Limited series means $900 plus. No thanks. GARY.

Am all for seeing some new T/G produced as long as the quality is the same. Seems to me that the Shield line has really taken hold.

While it is highly unlikely that any more 3rd gen guns will be made, it is equally unlikely that the quality would be the same if they were. They might resemble the original, but thats all. They would just be overpriced knock offs. No thanks!

Im just glad that there are so many nice examples of the real deal out there. And with people avoiding them due to "...lack of spare parts!" and "..no manufacturer support!" the prices arent going up like they just a year or so ago. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

I recognize the chances of revised metal guns are slim. However, I also recognize that S&W is battling declining demand, extremely aggressive competition AND excess manufacturing capacity. The excess capacity is mostly a function of selling fewer revolvers (that require much more labor) than in the past.

Actually, Smith's revolver business isn't enjoying the share it did in the past. Just last week they announced:

"And it comes down on consumer preferences, I mean six, seven years ago we would see for every one revolver that was sold here in the U.S. there were 3.5 polymer pistols sold. That number has increased to over six now. So, definitely consumer preferences have drifted away from revolvers."

If they want to keep their most skilled workers, they need to find ways to sell more labor-intensive products. Conditions for the company may be a bit different from when they last examined the possibility of revisiting the metal gun business.

As one of you pointed out...I'm not holding my breath.

The last calendar year in which more revolvers than pistols were manufactured in the US was 1986. Since that time, more pistols have been annually manufactured than revolvers.

Some interesting numbers from the BATFE in its 2017 report. https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/...-2017/download

Nowadays it's not nearly as labor intensive to produce revolvers, either. From my notes in a revolver armorer class more than 10 years ago ...

It previously took 7 machines (and machine operators) to make a revolver hammer. Now they come out of a MIM mold and are much more precise.

Making the Old Model revolver frames required 75 machining steps (without the barrel), but the New Model revolver frames only require 3 machining steps, and then they're off to heat treat.

Handgun (and other) production occurs in "cells", with small groups of assemblers (and fitters, for some revolvers), and production is much more efficient and streamlined than in earlier years.

Another guy at the factory once told me that there was a significant improvement in revolver production when the factory decided it was time to tighten the normal manufacturing tolerances of critical revolver parts to a much tighter tolerance range (based upon analyzing Performance Center specs and production), than used to be possible in the older hand-fitted revolver production. He used to be in revolver production in the 70's, and then doing custom work (before moving over to the then-new Auto Improvement Program - AIP - during the end of the 2nd gen pistol production). He said the older revolvers pretty much had to be hand-fitted to get them to work with the older production parts and tolerances.

Now, personally, IF (hypothetically speaking) the company were to reinvigorate the 3rd gen pistols and begin even limited production again, I'd not be surprised to find that their ever improving cutting edge manufacturing methods would probably allow them to simplify some of the steps. While the sear release lever would probably still require some hand-fitting/gauging, the tolerances for slides and extractors might (might) reach the point where they no longer required hand-fitting.

I say that because in my last 3rd gen recert I came across a late production 5906TSW training gun in which an extractor dropped in the slide and was within good spec, without any filing/fitting. The instructor said that he'd seen that happen only a couple times, but that they were in another recent class. He speculated that the improvements in manufacturing tolerances were reaching the point where specs were becoming more precise.

It was shortly afterward when we were told in one of our M&P pistols recerts that armorers were no longer being required to buy an extractor bar gauge for the .40/357 guns, because the factory had determined the newest guns were precisely enough made that the extractors were dropping in.

As a matter of fact, when I'd previously repeatedly called and asked if they'd made an extractor block gauge for the 9/.45 M&P's (because I like to have armorer tools ), they kept telling me they didn't consider it necessary for those calibers. They said the extractors and slides were being made to such close tolerances that the extractors were dropping it (like everyone else's plastic guns).

So, maybe if they ever did decide to make some 3rd gen's, we'd see them undergo yet another revision and improvement in manufacturing.

Don't hold your breath, though. (But, as is easily said with S&W, in general ... never say never, because they change their minds all the time.)

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Great thread!! I have a question for all of you CS9 guys and I have trouble with the search feature not working on Tapatalk. Anyways what are you guys doing for guide rods these days? Modifying 2nd gen guide rods or purchasing them from somewhere? I’ve spent too much time trying to figure this out already. Sorry if this is a bit off topic


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If you cannot locate an actual guide rod for the CS9, cutting down a 457 guide rod will also work (and last I saw, Midway had them in stock for about $11). A CS45/CS40 guide rod or a 4040PD guide rod are also good but need to be cut down as well.

Thanks! Have you ever tried putting a 3913 slide on a CS9? I have a lead on a full slide for cheap, and was thinking to try it


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The frame of a CS9 is too short and leaves a gap between the front of the frame and the bottom lug of the 3913 slide, so for me that is a no-go.

Thanks again, I figured as much. Might buy it anyways since it’s just too pretty


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I finally got to wring out my Stainless CS9 today. Ate about 125 rounds of mixed ammo with 100% reliability. Fairly accurate little piece too.

Felt good with the TercGen grip and flat 3913TSW mag baseplate on. Its going to be my new summer carry gun. So light, small and flat its like not carrying a gun. Great pistol! Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change