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  #101  
Old 07-16-2018, 10:04 AM
josywales josywales is offline
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....Yes, guns are tools. So are automobiles. So, why are we not driving econoboxes to work, the beach, etc? A Fiat 500 is certainly as good a tool as my RAV4. Personally, I'd rather have something else than the Toyota, but why, if it's just a tool?
I wish you hadn't gone there. I'll tell you why you might want something else. Imagine your Rav4 is four days old and you and are spouse are enjoying a day without the kids, sitting at a traffic light, when Bham! A 20something slams into you with his 94' Accord, doing maybe 25mph, because he was texting. Sure, your Rav4 is good enough to chase down the 20something, as he flees the scene, and you can hold him, as your spouse talks the police in to the alley behind the post office. But days, weeks, months, even years go by and still, your hip continues to hurt.

Every Black Friday you remember how insignificant the hit was, then you rub your hip and also recall how your wife said, "It's Black Friday, take the company Explorer and not your new Rav4. you're going to get dinged with all of the mad shopping carts." then you go on with your day. It's then that you realize your Rav4 is a Camry in wolf's clothing.

I had a company vehicle. My position changed and they took my Ford Explorer. I wanted a Ridgeline, but my wife already had a Pilot and it seemed silly to have two trucks, so I bought the Rav4 because it made "sense". After the incident, not so much. My wife is also used to truck and commented that the Rav4 felt like a tin can and she never felt safe in it. Rational or not, she feels safer in her Pilot. The week after it was repaired, I traded the Rav4 in and bought the Ridgeline I should have gotten in the first place.

This is NOT a condemnation of the Rav4. That vehicle offers a lot for its size and price range, but it's just not for me anymore. It might make sense you younger, more limber folks, but I don't have 3 decades left to fully recover from soft tissue injuries.

My position changed again and I was given a 2013 Explorer. Imagine you're driving down the road in your 2013 Explorer, on a beautiful day, and an enormous tree, large enough to cover five lines of traffic, falls on top of you in your Explorer, totaling the truck, but not you. A passerby opens the hatch and you crawl out with soft tissue injuries. I'm now driving a 2017 Explorer... If they take my Explorer, I'll get a Ridgeline and happily pay through the nose for gas.

The tree confirmed what I had suspected all along. I had the right tool for the job, sitting in my driveway, but drove the Rav4 that day and have been paying for it ever since, all be it a modest price.

PS - I guess is you've only been hit in a vehicle three times in four decades, then perhaps even a motorcycle makes sense. Of course, the older you get, the harder it is to bounce back from those fender benders ; )

PSS: this is also not a condemnation of any plastic gun. Different circumstances call for different tools. It's that simple. We all want the tool that we're most efficient with and even "like" better and it doesn't matter what material it's made of or what it costs, if it works for us. We went to the movies yesterday. it's warm and I don't like using a hip holster, since I'm seated most of the time. I picked up a relatively inexpensive Vega (Miami Classic) holster into which I shoved a shrouded hammer Colt Detective Special, which I overpaid for, and enjoyed the movie. Honestly, the holster might be harder to replace than the Colt. They don't take holsters as evidence do they!?!?!?

Last edited by josywales; 07-16-2018 at 11:33 AM.
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  #102  
Old 07-16-2018, 02:03 PM
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Plastic is for Tupperware and Hollywood starlets, steel and wood is for fine fire arms, long guns, revolvers, 1911's, and BHP's....
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  #103  
Old 07-16-2018, 09:41 PM
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Getting sick of gun snobs, which ever way they lean. Have both steel and plastic. I can appreciate both. As long as they get the job done, either is fine.

Last edited by staylor; 07-16-2018 at 09:56 PM.
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  #104  
Old 07-16-2018, 10:16 PM
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I have always loved the steel pistols and revolvers from Smith and others. I recently picked up a Shift&W 686. Only recently have I picked up a polymer pistol. It is more convenient to carry. But to me, it is nothing more than a tool, not unlike a screwdriver or wrench. It sits in a drawer until it is needed.
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  #105  
Old 07-17-2018, 04:19 PM
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I don't want to get hung up on vehicles, but since josywales said "My position changed again and I was given a 2013 Explorer. Imagine you're driving down the road in your 2013 Explorer, on a beautiful day, and an enormous tree, large enough to cover five lines of traffic, falls on top of you in your Explorer, totaling the truck, but not you. A passerby opens the hatch and you crawl out with soft tissue injuries. I'm now driving a 2017 Explorer... If they take my Explorer, I'll get a Ridgeline and happily pay through the nose for gas," this is what I'm thinking of replacing my RAV4. I found it between Houston and Austin and I reckon it fits in with schoolmarm persona. Along with my gen 2 and gen 3 9mm Smiths.
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  #106  
Old 07-17-2018, 05:24 PM
josywales josywales is offline
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I don't want to get hung up on vehicles, but since josywales said "My position changed again and I was given a 2013 Explorer. Imagine you're driving down the road in your 2013 Explorer, on a beautiful day, and an enormous tree, large enough to cover five lines of traffic, falls on top of you in your Explorer, totaling the truck, but not you. A passerby opens the hatch and you crawl out with soft tissue injuries. I'm now driving a 2017 Explorer... If they take my Explorer, I'll get a Ridgeline and happily pay through the nose for gas," this is what I'm thinking of replacing my RAV4. I found it between Houston and Austin and I reckon it fits in with schoolmarm persona. Along with my gen 2 and gen 3 9mm Smiths.
Now you're cooking with gas. Slap a Gen 3 9mm in a Miami Classic and hoowah!
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  #107  
Old 07-17-2018, 06:35 PM
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The problem is that you nuts think of handguns as pieces of art instead of the tools they are. You have a problem.







Yes, I do have a problem -- Stage 27 P&R Disorder.
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  #108  
Old 07-17-2018, 06:44 PM
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Yes, I do have a problem -- Stage 27 P&R Disorder.
Sorry, but there is no known cure for that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 07-18-2018, 11:47 AM
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My time expended, and out-of-pocket costs paid, saved your life, and I am very, very happy about that.
I'm translating this to mean "I am very happy to have collected a substantial portion of the settlement". Lawyers don't do anything for free. GARY
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  #110  
Old 07-18-2018, 12:48 PM
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Has anyone ever considered some people just might find a Glock or similar pistol aesthetically appealing? I live in a mid-century modern(an Eichler). A lot of folks don't care for this type of architecture, but I find them to be works of art. When an earthquake took out my radiant floor heat a few years ago, instead of busting out the concrete floor searching for the leak, I opted to ditch the boiler system altogether and put in exposed spiral ductwork and I absolutely love the look. I'm also fond of late 60's/early 70's muscle cars, but when they came out, many older folks found them to plain and visually unappealing. A lot of this stuff is subjective and generational.
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  #111  
Old 07-18-2018, 03:37 PM
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I totally agree, plastic pistols are the best.They have superior engineering and materials, drop dead sexy appearance, are more accurate, and will make even a mediocre shot perform like Jerry Miculek. They are just plain cool.

Disclaimer: please let's all spread the word via social media, forums, bumper stickers, etc. Talk it up! In no time your local LGS will have an overabundance of trade-ins of classic blued carbon steel pistols, color case hardened triggers and hammers and beautifully shaped checkered wooden stocks. The influx will drive prices down and decrease interest in these ancient, dinosaur relics. It will be a buyers market. Let's do it!
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  #112  
Old 07-18-2018, 05:34 PM
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The problem is that you nuts think of handguns as pieces of art instead of the tools they are. You have a problem.
The day you spring for a nice older revolver , semi custom 1911 or an IMI plated Desert Eagle , you might understand the quality and workmanship so many here are passionate about.Until then enjoy what you have.
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  #113  
Old 07-19-2018, 01:46 AM
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Haha! You make a great point. Perhaps I'll start selling them off when I reach your age. Since I don't plan on having kids myself, I honestly have no clue who I'd leave them to.
At my age, it's probably a good idea to sell them and get plastic pistols. That way, you'll have something to gnaw on when your teeth begin aching and bleeding! At my age I shake so much my Ruger Single-Six went full auto on me one day at the range! At my age I...I...forgot what I was going to say.

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Funny how the polymer gun folks never say anything about people owning metal guns(with plastic grips )until provoked.
Grips can be changed. Frames and parts not so much. Besides, a gun can still be beautiful with plastic grips. There are no beautiful plastic guns. If someone gave me a choice between a model 639 and a 3906, I'd take the former any day of the week.
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Hey, what about MIM bashing, haven’t seen that in a day or three.
I despise MIM parts, not because they don't work but because they are ugly. On my S&W 686 no-dash, I love the hard chromed parts. Wouldn't care if they were MIM if they were hard chromed. The problem is, they aren't. The latest 3rd gen 5906 guns have black, ugly hammers and triggers. Don't know what they're made of. Now some idiot at S&W has decided two-toning revolvers is a swell idea! They look horrible.

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Originally Posted by barbara_em View Post
I wonder why otherwise sensible people will get so down right nasty when talking about metal versus plastic. (I almost said discussing, but that implies to me civil discourse.)
Who's getting nasty, you jerk! (Hey, just kidding!) No one's gotten nasty here or, if they have, they were deleted before I could read them. I don't think less of people who agree with me. If I did, I'd be a hermit.

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Yes, guns are tools. So are automobiles. So, why are we not driving econoboxes to work, the beach, etc?
Believe me, there are many out there who are trying to do just that. My neighbors are just some. They reason that because the Europeans are driving them, that we ought to. They don't take into account that Americans are 1) better, 2) FREE (see number 1), 3) better protected if we have something bigger and heavier crashing into us, and 4) have vast regions of miles cross country while they have short patches.

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[I] finally settled on a Glock 26. I worked with that pistol several months and got good with it. (I also tried a CZ100, a double action only polymer and got good with it, too, but that's another story.) I never really liked the trigger on the 26 though, and considered the experiment an interesting failure. I dumped the Glock for a 908 or 6906s and similar pistols.
I also did well with Glocks. For a boxy, plastic, completely unappealing pistol it was a fine handgun. Wouldn't own one, though. I also just got a Smith 6906. A woman neighbor just gave me three of her husband's guns after he died and didn't want a cent. She just wanted them out of her home. The only thing I had to agree to is to take two aging rifles with them, which I sold for $900 apiece. The pistols she gave me were 1) a S&W 6906, 2) Browning Hi-Power (T-model, 1968), and 3) S&W 36 (all Excellent Condition+) I'm not selling any of the pistols as they are all great guns.

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Getting sick of gun snobs, which ever way they lean. Have both steel and plastic. I can appreciate both. As long as they get the job done, either is fine.
And I can appreciate people who appreciate both, but people who like plastic are causing people who like steel to not be able to get what they like and love.

Not all improvements need to be bemoaned, sir. Very few people want us to return to 35mm and Polaroid film, for example. Certainly not I. But all steel pistols now seem to be going for close to a grand! Plastic pistols are cheaper to make now than steel, so those of us who like steel are going to have to pay more for steel or do without. And that's the shame! Regardless of what some say, handguns are not merely tools. Some are quite elegant, and that makes them elegant. No one has ever engraved a hammer, a pair of pliers or a tire iron, but they have engraved arms throughout the ages. It's a bond between arms and men that has existed for thousands of years. In fact, that's how Odysseus caught Achilles prior to the Trojan War. His mother, knowing he would die if sent away, sought to prevent it by sending him away to a girl's school. Odysseus, ever the tactician, set up two tables, one with dresses, jewelry and exotic powders; the other with arms of various types. When one girl wondered over to inspect the blade of a beautiful sword, they grabbed him and behold, he was not a woman but a man!
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  #114  
Old 07-19-2018, 02:07 AM
JayFramer JayFramer is offline
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Let's cut to the meat........


ok..you may not like polymer resin (plastic as you understand it) handguns. that's ok...ignorance is treatable.



from all the comments here it is obvious that a WHOLE LOT of people have no clue of the nature, strength, and durability of polymer resin's used in today's firearms...and yes there is scientific proof that polymer resin's are stonger than metal and metal alloy's....don't take my word for it...it's out there for you to read but ut-oh...that means educating yourself...



Original glocks have been around for HOW LONG??? and are still functional and will be for HOW MANY MORE YEARS ??????


The under layment of the space shuttle heat shield tile area is WHAT???? Metal??? NOPE...polymer Resin's...YEP ...


the list goes on...but I am sure you don't want to hear it.....


Just saying....................................
MEEEHHH!!!! I'm an old cantankerous curmudgeon and what I say GOES sonny!! Metal wins, ain't no plastic no match for walnut n' STEEL!!

PS: kidding I own both like both both are great get both shoot both both is good.
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  #115  
Old 07-19-2018, 05:48 AM
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Say what you may, but Glocks are dependable and cheap. For $450, what else are you going to get that is as dependable and shoots as good?
Yes, when I go to the range and want to strut my stuff, I carry my shiny stainless and purdy blues guns,
But, my big out bag has a g17 stashed in it. Each of my vehicles have a G17 stashed in them.
Each have their place.
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  #116  
Old 07-19-2018, 10:22 AM
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Stupid phone.
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Old 07-19-2018, 10:25 AM
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Says more about the owner than the machine.
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Anybody want a 1911 Ford? I have on rotting and rusting in my back yard for sale......cheap too!
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Old 07-19-2018, 10:35 AM
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Might not be as pleasing to admire but if they function correctly they are OK by me.
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Old 07-19-2018, 12:57 PM
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Stupid phone.
If it was stainless and Walnut w/engraving it would work...
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Old 07-19-2018, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Laketime View Post
The day you spring for a nice older revolver , semi custom 1911 or an IMI plated Desert Eagle , you might understand the quality and workmanship so many here are passionate about.Until then enjoy what you have.
oh, I do. I enjoyed the $300 pistols I’ve purchased just as much as my 1K+ pistols. But guess what, they’re still guns, not art, not anything to sit around and fondle and stroke - as many here do.
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Old 07-19-2018, 02:23 PM
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Say what you may, but Glocks are dependable and cheap. For $450, what else are you going to get that is as dependable and shoots as good?
That's exactly the problem. We used to be able to get good steel guns for that price. Now we think we've got a good deal when they sell us a plastic pistol for the same price we used to get a good stainless steel gun for. You want to get a good steel gun now? It's horrendously priced!

I love nickel plated guns. No one's making them anymore unless you want a 1911 pistol, and they're all very expensive and if you want a nickel-plated gun, you have to look in the used gun market, and they ain't cheap. Nickel was beautiful, it was durable and did I saw they were beautiful?
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Old 07-19-2018, 02:37 PM
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Electroless nickel is a fairly good option. You can even do that at home if you want.
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Old 07-19-2018, 02:52 PM
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oh, I do. I enjoyed the $300 pistols I’ve purchased just as much as my 1K+ pistols. But guess what, they’re still guns, not art, not anything to sit around and fondle and stroke - as many here do.
Many here belong to a larger world wide community that will disagree with you.Yet you chose to call them nuts for this ? Do you feel that the museums and world wide community of collectors and enthusiasts are misguided, while you have it together ?
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Old 07-19-2018, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Stargater View Post
That's exactly the problem. We used to be able to get good steel guns for that price. Now we think we've got a good deal when they sell us a plastic pistol for the same price we used to get a good stainless steel gun for. You want to get a good steel gun now? It's horrendously priced!

I love nickel plated guns. No one's making them anymore unless you want a 1911 pistol, and they're all very expensive and if you want a nickel-plated gun, you have to look in the used gun market, and they ain't cheap. Nickel was beautiful, it was durable and did I saw they were beautiful?


You can still get new nickel guns, the Beretta 84,85 talk about sexy, nickel and .380acp together.


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Old 07-19-2018, 04:58 PM
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Many here belong to a larger world wide community that will disagree with you.Yet you chose to call them nuts for this ? Do you feel that the museums and world wide community of collectors and enthusiasts are misguided, while you have it together ?
Initially, that comment was a bit of humor, referencing liberals calling us all gun nuts.

Comparing actual artwork in a museum to firearms is absurd. Firearms in museums are there for their historical significance, not your belief that they are beautiful things, so maybe you and others do have a problem after all.

I have had several very nice, fast cars, Mustangs and a Challenger.. I was proud to own them but I didn’t consider them art. Why? They’re not.

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Old 07-19-2018, 06:00 PM
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Initially, that comment was a bit of humor, referencing liberals calling us all gun nuts.

Comparing actual artwork in a museum to firearms is absurd. Firearms in museums are there for their historical significance, not your belief that they are beautiful things, so maybe you and others do have a problem after all.

I have had several very nice, fast cars, Mustangs and a Challenger.. I was proud to own them but I didn’t consider them art. Why? They’re not.
Look at Cabot's 1911 site.You will find pistols done in a purely artistic form.Also you might want to discover the many fine arms posted here that have been engraved for purely artistic value.Nothing wrong for you to discover another side of firearms that you seemed to have missed.

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Old 08-11-2018, 11:45 PM
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Tell that to the pre war Germans who developed the pp, ppk, P38........🙂
Personally I like that layout. Recently acquired a ISP marked 39 which is going to replace my Sig p6, which may soon be getting traded for a Walther p1
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Old 08-13-2018, 07:23 AM
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I love heavy metal and if it's a bit scratched up that's fine with me. I personally never liked Glocks but I do own a couple of Tupperware versions. I like nice things and the perspective it gives me, I grew up fighting for my life in the Marines so every day is a blessing.

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Old 08-14-2018, 12:11 AM
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a 3913NL or HK45c are on my person to protect me and mine...I trust both equally
You need a 4513
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Old 08-14-2018, 01:09 AM
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You need a 4513
you are right
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Old 08-14-2018, 01:32 AM
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"Getting Sick of Guys With Plastic Pistols...calling my S&W 659/5906 or 645 boat anchors."

Try to remember this...
"It's not the style of wand that the wizard holds... it's the magic that he can get it to produce."
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Old 08-14-2018, 03:56 AM
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I really wonder what the life expectancy is for poly guns.
Now I'm positive this couldn't be anything but an outlier but there's a guy on Glock talk who posted the thread a couple years back entitled "I think my 21 has proved its worth". He took a Glock 21 and decided to see just how long it would last. He put something like a hundred and eighty thousand rounds through it. He left it sitting overnight in Frozen salt water. He buried it in the mud. He threw it out of an airplane in Alaska. You can go check the thread if you're interested for what all he did to this gun but he literally shot it until the rifling in the bore was gone

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Old 08-14-2018, 04:09 AM
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Guns are entirely utilitarian to me. I carry a Glock, there are a million more just like it. I carry it with the full expectation that if (God forbid) I ever have to use it it's gone. It'll go to the evidence locker and I'll either never see it again or it will be thrashed by the time I do.

If I'm carrying a gun for 11 or 12 hours in a day I appreciate a lighter gun and there's really nothing that you can do with a 5906 that I can't do with a Glock 19.

I own one third generation Smith & Wesson that is literally irreplaceable because I bought it in a private sale in Colorado right before they changed the law. So it's a safe Queen but even at that it's disposable I'm not taking it with me.
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Old 08-14-2018, 04:42 AM
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1st off who cares what the plastic gun guys say. Secondly, I have both. The plastic guns are just practical tools. Glocks are ugly but they are cheap and they work. I have 5 of them. The 43 my wife carries, the 23 I sometimes carry and the model 40 I sometimes carry. I carry the 23 when I feel the need for reliability, concealability and capacity. The 40 for when I'm willing to sacrifice some consealability for power, reach and accuracy. If engaging an active shooter with a rifle I won't have one. I'd like something that gives me a little better chance against a rifle. Otherwise I'm likely carrying a steel wheel gun, or steel/aluminum 1911, but honestly very rarely one of my gen2 smith semi-autos.
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Old 08-19-2018, 03:16 PM
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After owning and having owned several 1, 2. and 3rd gen Smith autos I look at plastic Smiths differently. I own 3 Glocks, 2 in 10mm and a small collection of HKs in 45. Point is moot here because the only M&P available is the shield. The other plastic is the Sigma style.
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Old 08-22-2018, 10:37 PM
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I love my metal guns, the 2206, 41, 1917, AutoMag TDE 180, etc., but I also like my Kahr PM9, Glock 43 and Canik TP9sfx. They're all good guns that fulfill their purposes well.
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Old 08-24-2018, 12:10 AM
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The military and agencies get the lowest bidder most often.
If this were actually true, why is there not a Taurus in all those holsters?
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Old 08-24-2018, 12:45 AM
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They either don't enter, or they don't meet the specs. They may not have the production capacity.

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Old 08-24-2018, 11:55 AM
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Old 08-24-2018, 12:43 PM
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I love my revolvers. They are beautiful and extremely fun to shoot.I know my Glock 21 though is my workhorse, a hammer, that I depend on everyday I go to work. Every platform has its place.

I love my revolvers and 1911's and I also love my "plastic guns". I do appreciate the revolvers more due to the craftsmanship that goes into them.
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Old 08-24-2018, 01:22 PM
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IMHO, there are Men of Steel, Metal Men, and, well . . plastic guys. They all get the bullet down range, just by different means.
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Old 08-24-2018, 01:49 PM
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If this were actually true, why is there not a Taurus in all those holsters?
Taurus bid doesn't meet specs, or Taurus doesn't bid . . .

(Hi Point would be cheaper than Taurus)
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Old 08-24-2018, 03:30 PM
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I do like canister vacuum cleaners but find that the uprights are so much more elegant. Yes, they both suck.
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Old 08-24-2018, 04:21 PM
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oh, I do. I enjoyed the $300 pistols I’ve purchased just as much as my 1K+ pistols. But guess what, they’re still guns, not art, not anything to sit around and fondle and stroke - as many here do.
I could easily post pics of shotguns and rifles that ARE works of art.....but this is a handgun forum (and I'm getting tired of getting spanked for minor infractions!)
Google Peter Hofer and his "Hummingbird" double rifle
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Old 08-24-2018, 05:32 PM
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Don't worry about what others say or the reason for what they value. Your opinion, like mine, has a commonality with certain body parts.

Me? I was issued two different 3rd generation S&Ws. The first was deeply flawed, as were the majority of the ones we had. The second worked ok, but I saw a staggering number fail at in-service with relatively few rounds through them, and at least one was broken the day it was issued. A friends agency had 3rd generation 9mms - they rarely worked. They are not sacred. The Glock 21s with ambi mag releases were sub-optimal, too - the majority had to be replaced.

These sorts of events are among the reasons that qualified professionals with real experience recommend 500-1000 round testing with service ammo. I did that (about 700 rounds) when I went back to an issued platform (G21). The G22/23 models are well known for being unreliable, especially with a light attached. I would neither have one nor allow them to be carried. My G17s have been great. My G26 was not; the G33, which is unpleasant to shoot, has been. The first generation of M&P 9mms were subject to randomly poor accuracy. Lots of mechanical devices have flaws, and need to be tested as a result. If a S&W 3rd generation auto works for you, have right the heck at it.

My firearms are for personal defense (and previously, duty). It's all about fighting. Period. I need them to work reliably and as accurately as I can shoot (the limiting factor) more than anything else. I have one lever action, a customized 30-30. I used it as a patrol rifle for a while. I have one semi-auto rifle, a BCM AR, set up for personal defense. My shotgun, the same. I can't see any reason for a barrel longer than 18" on a shotgun, and an issued one for patrol should be 14". The AR should probably be 11.5" or so, with a suppressor. They are not art - they are tools for a serious purpose. I rarely do anything that is inconsistent with being armed. In fact, anything inconsistent with being armed is probably an optional activity in which I will not engage; I can think of no excuse for being willingly unarmed. Doing so is as foreign to me as making rocket fuel - it's utterly weird. Most of my decisions about guns are based on the ability to carry and use them all the time. A full sized metal gun is not what I prefer.

I do appreciate (and sometimes feel real jealousy about) the photos from Doc44 and others. None of those firearms are worth the cost to me. That does not mean I can't appreciate the workmanship and appearance of a 5" M29, or that 3.5" LE special order .44 Special shown and discussed in proper sub-forum. I had a really nice custom 1911 for several years, a Hilton Yam 10-8. With anything approaching standard pressure 230 grain service ammo, including 230 grain gold dots, it was a stellar performer, reliable through a few thousand rounds. I like a nice 1911. I cannot objectively justify one - that $5K or so will buy a new M&P 9mm of some size (or maybe two, just for redundancy), all the work for a red dot, holster, and training and a LOT of ammo. From any realistic analysis, that is a FAR better use of my money.

To the extent I would be willing to admit looking at and fondling anything based on cosmetics, my preferences run more to topics not safe for discussion here.
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Old 08-25-2018, 09:27 AM
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Only one plastic gun is in my current defensive lineup.

I have never liked Glocks.....
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