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Old 08-05-2018, 10:23 AM
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Default Will S&W reproduce 3rd Gens in their “Classic” line?

Curious what the team here thinks. Does anyone thing S&W will ever reintroduce 3rd Gen pistols in their classic line?

While I would like to see it, I suspect they won’t due to tooling, etc; especially sine they no longer support 3rd Gen pistols anymore.

Which model would you like to see?

For me, it’d be the 3913
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Old 08-05-2018, 10:51 AM
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No, no sir, I don't think so. If they did, I'd like to see Performance Center guns like a 952.
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Old 08-05-2018, 11:18 AM
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I would think - Never... even revolver Classic models have newer dash type upgrades including the IL... “Never Say Never with S&W” is a catchy phrase that was coined several administrative generations ago and means nothing now. Gen 1, 2 & 3 gun’s had parts outsourced which are not available and low sales brought about their demise when plastic frames became the thing. Current fitters have no experience assembling the old gen guns and it would be cost prohibitive to train new fitters. The overall cost would be a bean counter’s nightmare.

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Old 08-05-2018, 11:18 AM
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Don't think we will see it myself but would love to see the Model 952 also in blued and stainless. Also the 3913 Tactical series. I imagine the prices would shock us also.
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Old 08-05-2018, 12:07 PM
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No, the market isn't there. I'd settle for continued factory support, but I don't even see that.
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Old 08-05-2018, 04:23 PM
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While "never say never" is a good philosophy to keep in mind with S&W corporate thinking ...

I'd never expect them to get back into the TDA metal pistol market again. The 1911 market is still profitable, but the other metal pistols can't compete with the proliferation of excellent plastic service-type pistols (and it would rob machine and tech time from 1911 production).

Now, if they would ever get back into it, and my state repealed that Roster (micro-stamping is the big restriction problem looming over any new design handguns ) ...

I'd wish for them to make a model they never got around to making, which is a 3916. That model number was never used, but if it were, it would mean a 3913 slide/barrel (made to TSW specs) on top of a stainless steel frame.

Heavier than an aluminum-framed 3913? Yep. But the short single stack wouldn't be very heavy, overall, and both the recoil management and the long term durability of an all-steel compact would be worth it.

Never expect it happen. Pleasant daydream, though.
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Old 08-05-2018, 05:32 PM
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I would love it if s&w would bring back this 3rd generation pistol the Smith & Wesson 3913 LS "Ladysmith"
In the 1990s when it was first produced I handled one and I liked it.
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Old 08-05-2018, 05:42 PM
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Certainly is an interesting question with a host of "possibles". I own several 52's, but owning the 952 was never in the cards for me. While it is no doubt a fine pistol S&W priced it way out of my reach and most others. I instead opted to purchase a German made Sig P-210 which IMHO is a far better pistol. Now don't shoot the messenger, I said it was MY opinion. I bought a Legend Target P-210 and it is far more accurate than I am and is a real pleasure to shoot with its two-stage trigger. When I bought my P-210 it was much more affordable than a 952.

Ironically and for a host of reasons Sig stopped importing the German made P-210's and after a lengthy hiatus, the P-210 is now being built in the USA for our consumption. While I haven't shot one yet, I have looked at them and they seem every bit as well built as the German made pistols. From what I have read and heard the US built P-210's are quite accurate and hold their own against German and Swiss built models.

Now for the kicker, the Sig US built pistols cost less than the ones made in Europe, quite a bit less in fact. So it is possible to have your cake and eat it too! Smith and Wesson COULD re-introduce the 952 if they wanted to and perhaps with a little forethought it could even be offered at a "reasonable" price. Reasonable is the key word. If Sig USA can build a Target P-210 for around $1,500.00 I would think Smith and Wesson could build a 952 for close to the same price. How much did the fancy, dancey case that 952's came in add to the overall price of them? Unfortunately Smith and Wesson seems more interested in cranking out plastic pistols, 1911 clones and AR-15's that already proliferate the market place. While the 952 may have been a special pistol, it will never be a great pistol as far too few of them made into the hands of the unwashed masses. S&W missed the mark on that one, by a country mile.


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Old 08-05-2018, 05:57 PM
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Keep dreamin'..
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Old 08-05-2018, 06:02 PM
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I won't be holding my breath............

Now, having said that, I do wish they'd make 3 or 4 more 3953's for me....
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Old 08-05-2018, 06:13 PM
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Default Wishful thinking.....

I'd love to see that, but it falls into wishful thinking. If it were to materialize, I could see a limited run of several models. Many companies still make steel guns, and they sell, mostly because they are good. Maybe it wouldn't justify a general market release but as a limited run I think it would be very feasible.
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Old 08-05-2018, 08:12 PM
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There seem to be a fair number (by 3rd Gen standards) of those coming onto the used or NIB market. Or were a year or so ago. Some 3953TSW guns that were overruns or maybe put together from left over warranty parts.

I seem to remember some 3914TSW, 3914DAO, and 3953s with production dates as late as 2015.

It's just a matter of finding them.

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I won't be holding my breath............

Now, having said that, I do wish they'd make 3 or 4 more 3953's for me....
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Old 08-05-2018, 08:17 PM
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My bet is a no.
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Old 08-05-2018, 08:32 PM
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Old 08-05-2018, 08:41 PM
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If they did it would be like the revolver line , sharing the model number with just a hint of the original gun.
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Old 08-05-2018, 08:46 PM
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I don't think they will and having examined the so called "classics", I hope they dont.

They would just be cheapened knock offs of the real thing. And cost a lot more.

And then we would have to sift through them on Gunbroker while looking for the real 3rd gens. Regards 18DAI
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Old 08-05-2018, 09:47 PM
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It seems unlikely. But perhaps a drop in overall gun sales would allow S&W to find time on the CNC machines to make the frames and slides - that would not be too difficult or expensive. Actually cheaper today that in yesteryear. (How many people make 1911’s today, albeit often from forgings made in the Philippines or Brazil?). The small parts and springs would be problematic and probably require outsourcing - raising issues of MIM parts made in India (which is Sig-Sauer’s way of making small parts). Then there are the fitting and labor costs...

Probably not within the realm of possibility. Although the market seems to like lots of variation and niche guns these days.

But if S&W did it, and they surprised everyone with the niche 380 EZ, they would be wise to make slightly updated versions of the 3rd Gens that draw the best prices on the auction sites, e,g., the 3913, 3914, etc...
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Old 08-05-2018, 10:08 PM
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My understanding is that a lot of the smaller parts were out sourced. Which is why parts availability for 3rd Gens is sporadic. Fastbolt would know as he orders parts with some frequency.

As to fitting, the last 3rd Gens were built at Houlton (for the most part), so they probably still have people who could do it.

S&W still, or at least did a few years ago, forge their own 1911 frames. Those, along with revolver frames and other parts, 1911 slides, and plastic frame uppers are all machined on their 100+ CNC machines.

I don't know that handgun demand will slow to the point that S&W will have excess machining capacity. Also, they forge and machine parts for other companies not in the firearms industry. The last time I was there (2012) they were making cylinder block parts for Harley Davidson and plumbing fittings for some other company. That was in addition to the gun stuff they were doing.

I sure miss those tours.

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It seems unlikely. But perhaps a drop in overall gun sales would allow S&W to find time on the CNC machines to make the frames and slides - that would not be too difficult or expensive. Actually cheaper today that in yesteryear. (How many people make 1911’s today, albeit often from forgings made in the Philippines or Brazil?). The small parts and springs would be problematic and probably require outsourcing - raising issues of MIM parts made in India (which is Sig-Sauer’s way of making small parts). Then there are the fitting and labor costs...

Probably not within the realm of possibility. Although the market seems to like lots of variation and niche guns these days.

But if S&W the did it, and they surprised everyone with the niche 380 EZ, they would be wise to make slightly updated versions of the 3rd Gens that draw the best prices on the auction sites, e,g., the 3913, 3914, etc...
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Old 08-05-2018, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18DAI View Post
I don't think they will and having examined the so called "classics", I hope they dont.

They would just be cheapened knock offs of the real thing. And cost a lot more.

And then we would have to sift through them on Gunbroker while looking for the real 3rd gens. Regards 18DAI
Speaking for myself, I'd love to own a 3913-15 with lock.

Last edited by Jeppo; 08-06-2018 at 10:56 AM.
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Old 08-05-2018, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick H. View Post
Certainly is an interesting question with a host of "possibles". Smith and Wesson COULD re-introduce the 952 if they wanted to and perhaps with a little forethought it could even be offered at a "reasonable" price. Reasonable is the key word. If Sig USA can build a Target P-210 for around $1,500.00.....

Rick H.
I don't think that $1500 is "reasonable". Especially considering the current crop of stuff coming out of the PC.

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Unfortunately Smith and Wesson seems more interested in cranking out plastic pistols, 1911 clones and AR-15's that already proliferate the market place.

Rick H.
Any gun company will make and support what is profitable.Right now polymer autos,AR15s and 1911s are what most people are buying. Big interest in metal framed autos is gone now that we have something " better ". I prefer a steel framed gun all day long for longevity and retention of value, but there is something to be said for a gun in the same caliber at 1/2 to 2/3 the weight with more capacity for carry purposes.
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Old 08-06-2018, 10:50 AM
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One of the most popular S&W guns we sell are the S&W M&P15 Sport AR-15 style rifle @ $549. At any large gun show, I see hundreds go out the door. Should they decide to make 3rd Gen guns again, they'd have to sell them for more than double the price of the polymer guns they sell. In their minds, they probably feel they wouldn't sell many, so it's not worth it to make them again. It's all about the $. GARY
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Old 08-06-2018, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryS View Post
I don't know that handgun demand will slow to the point that S&W will have excess machining capacity. Also, they forge and machine parts for other companies not in the firearms industry. The last time I was there (2012) they were making cylinder block parts for Harley Davidson and plumbing fittings for some other company. That was in addition to the gun stuff they were doing.
Yeah. James Debney mentioned that on the Q3 2018 earnings call, specifically.

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We have some capacity when it comes to plastic injection molding. We have some capacity when it comes to forging. But everything else is fairly well utilized.
Access to this page has been denied.

The company's strategy (or the investor pressure) seems to be get rid of excess capacity rather than utilize it like, say, Pine Tree Castings (Ruger)-- that is, as a separate business altogether.

Given the cyclic boom-and-bust nature of the gun business you'd think that would be an obviously better longer-term decision, but anything that's not cutting costs scares the MBA crowd and the CEO has to make the investors happy so...

edit: that's supposed to be a link to the q3 earnings call transcript. Don't know what the forum software is blocking it.

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Old 08-06-2018, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick H. View Post
Ironically and for a host of reasons Sig stopped importing the German made P-210's and after a lengthy hiatus, the P-210 is now being built in the USA for our consumption. While I haven't shot one yet, I have looked at them and they seem every bit as well built as the German made pistols. From what I have read and heard the US built P-210's are quite accurate and hold their own against German and Swiss built models.
I believe that it's far too early to call this race and so far there are two distinct groups piling up. On one side you seem to have the folks who own and/or have a lot of experience with Swiss and German 210's who are disgusted with these new and very much cheapened pistols and then you have the camp of folks who are well aware of the legendary reputation of Swiss & German 210's who think they have found a lottery win in a new American production P210A at half of what Swiss 210's trade at.

I've handled the new P210A and it certainly feels like an upgrade over service and duty type guns and is obviously in a different class than the trucloads of polymer tupperware that is currently flung from hell to breakfast.

However, my only basis of comparison with the P210A is 952's, 845's, PPC-9's, other (out of production) S&W PC pistols and of course, S&W Model 52's.

And when you compare these new production P210A's to the PC pistols and 52's, they do not match up.

I have literally zero hands-on experience with Swiss and German 210's but from what I have heard... you will also not be impressed with the new P210A unless you prepare yourself for a pistol that is about half the budget of what you know in a 210.

Quote:
Now for the kicker, the Sig US built pistols cost less than the ones made in Europe, quite a bit less in fact. So it is possible to have your cake and eat it too! Smith and Wesson COULD re-introduce the 952 if they wanted to and perhaps with a little forethought it could even be offered at a "reasonable" price. Reasonable is the key word. If Sig USA can build a Target P-210 for around $1,500.00 I would think Smith and Wesson could build a 952 for close to the same price. How much did the fancy, dancey case that 952's came in add to the overall price of them?
No way, no way, no way. If they attempted, they would have a cheap copy of a legend that should be sold in a blister pack, hanging on a peg near the cash register. Smith & Wesson doesn't have the floor space, the talent or the desire to make handguns like the 52, 952 and 845 any more. This company of 2018 is nothing whatsoever like the group of men that made the guns bearing the Performance Center logo.
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Unfortunately Smith and Wesson seems more interested in cranking out plastic pistols, 1911 clones and AR-15's that already proliferate the market place.
Agree with that, however:
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While the 952 may have been a special pistol, it will never be a great pistol as far too few of them made into the hands of the unwashed masses. S&W missed the mark on that one, by a country mile.
Again, do not agree at all. There are actually quite a number of 952's that were made and maybe even more 945's. The PPC-9's, 845's, 4006 Limited, the 3566 Limited and other 5" target guns are in shorter supply.
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