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Old 08-05-2018, 10:23 AM
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Default Will S&W reproduce 3rd Gens in their “Classic” line?

Curious what the team here thinks. Does anyone thing S&W will ever reintroduce 3rd Gen pistols in their classic line?

While I would like to see it, I suspect they won’t due to tooling, etc; especially sine they no longer support 3rd Gen pistols anymore.

Which model would you like to see?

For me, it’d be the 3913
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Old 08-05-2018, 10:51 AM
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No, no sir, I don't think so. If they did, I'd like to see Performance Center guns like a 952.
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Old 08-05-2018, 11:18 AM
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I would think - Never... even revolver Classic models have newer dash type upgrades including the IL... “Never Say Never with S&W” is a catchy phrase that was coined several administrative generations ago and means nothing now. Gen 1, 2 & 3 gun’s had parts outsourced which are not available and low sales brought about their demise when plastic frames became the thing. Current fitters have no experience assembling the old gen guns and it would be cost prohibitive to train new fitters. The overall cost would be a bean counter’s nightmare.

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Old 08-05-2018, 11:18 AM
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Don't think we will see it myself but would love to see the Model 952 also in blued and stainless. Also the 3913 Tactical series. I imagine the prices would shock us also.
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Old 08-05-2018, 12:07 PM
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No, the market isn't there. I'd settle for continued factory support, but I don't even see that.
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Old 08-05-2018, 04:23 PM
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While "never say never" is a good philosophy to keep in mind with S&W corporate thinking ...

I'd never expect them to get back into the TDA metal pistol market again. The 1911 market is still profitable, but the other metal pistols can't compete with the proliferation of excellent plastic service-type pistols (and it would rob machine and tech time from 1911 production).

Now, if they would ever get back into it, and my state repealed that Roster (micro-stamping is the big restriction problem looming over any new design handguns ) ...

I'd wish for them to make a model they never got around to making, which is a 3916. That model number was never used, but if it were, it would mean a 3913 slide/barrel (made to TSW specs) on top of a stainless steel frame.

Heavier than an aluminum-framed 3913? Yep. But the short single stack wouldn't be very heavy, overall, and both the recoil management and the long term durability of an all-steel compact would be worth it.

Never expect it happen. Pleasant daydream, though.
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Old 08-05-2018, 05:32 PM
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I would love it if s&w would bring back this 3rd generation pistol the Smith & Wesson 3913 LS "Ladysmith"
In the 1990s when it was first produced I handled one and I liked it.
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Old 08-05-2018, 05:42 PM
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Certainly is an interesting question with a host of "possibles". I own several 52's, but owning the 952 was never in the cards for me. While it is no doubt a fine pistol S&W priced it way out of my reach and most others. I instead opted to purchase a German made Sig P-210 which IMHO is a far better pistol. Now don't shoot the messenger, I said it was MY opinion. I bought a Legend Target P-210 and it is far more accurate than I am and is a real pleasure to shoot with its two-stage trigger. When I bought my P-210 it was much more affordable than a 952.

Ironically and for a host of reasons Sig stopped importing the German made P-210's and after a lengthy hiatus, the P-210 is now being built in the USA for our consumption. While I haven't shot one yet, I have looked at them and they seem every bit as well built as the German made pistols. From what I have read and heard the US built P-210's are quite accurate and hold their own against German and Swiss built models.

Now for the kicker, the Sig US built pistols cost less than the ones made in Europe, quite a bit less in fact. So it is possible to have your cake and eat it too! Smith and Wesson COULD re-introduce the 952 if they wanted to and perhaps with a little forethought it could even be offered at a "reasonable" price. Reasonable is the key word. If Sig USA can build a Target P-210 for around $1,500.00 I would think Smith and Wesson could build a 952 for close to the same price. How much did the fancy, dancey case that 952's came in add to the overall price of them? Unfortunately Smith and Wesson seems more interested in cranking out plastic pistols, 1911 clones and AR-15's that already proliferate the market place. While the 952 may have been a special pistol, it will never be a great pistol as far too few of them made into the hands of the unwashed masses. S&W missed the mark on that one, by a country mile.


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Old 08-05-2018, 05:57 PM
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Keep dreamin'..
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Old 08-05-2018, 06:02 PM
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I won't be holding my breath............

Now, having said that, I do wish they'd make 3 or 4 more 3953's for me....
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Old 08-05-2018, 06:13 PM
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Default Wishful thinking.....

I'd love to see that, but it falls into wishful thinking. If it were to materialize, I could see a limited run of several models. Many companies still make steel guns, and they sell, mostly because they are good. Maybe it wouldn't justify a general market release but as a limited run I think it would be very feasible.
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Old 08-05-2018, 08:12 PM
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There seem to be a fair number (by 3rd Gen standards) of those coming onto the used or NIB market. Or were a year or so ago. Some 3953TSW guns that were overruns or maybe put together from left over warranty parts.

I seem to remember some 3914TSW, 3914DAO, and 3953s with production dates as late as 2015.

It's just a matter of finding them.

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I won't be holding my breath............

Now, having said that, I do wish they'd make 3 or 4 more 3953's for me....
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Old 08-05-2018, 08:17 PM
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My bet is a no.
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Old 08-05-2018, 08:32 PM
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Old 08-05-2018, 08:41 PM
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If they did it would be like the revolver line , sharing the model number with just a hint of the original gun.
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Old 08-05-2018, 08:46 PM
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I don't think they will and having examined the so called "classics", I hope they dont.

They would just be cheapened knock offs of the real thing. And cost a lot more.

And then we would have to sift through them on Gunbroker while looking for the real 3rd gens. Regards 18DAI
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Old 08-05-2018, 09:47 PM
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It seems unlikely. But perhaps a drop in overall gun sales would allow S&W to find time on the CNC machines to make the frames and slides - that would not be too difficult or expensive. Actually cheaper today that in yesteryear. (How many people make 1911’s today, albeit often from forgings made in the Philippines or Brazil?). The small parts and springs would be problematic and probably require outsourcing - raising issues of MIM parts made in India (which is Sig-Sauer’s way of making small parts). Then there are the fitting and labor costs...

Probably not within the realm of possibility. Although the market seems to like lots of variation and niche guns these days.

But if S&W did it, and they surprised everyone with the niche 380 EZ, they would be wise to make slightly updated versions of the 3rd Gens that draw the best prices on the auction sites, e,g., the 3913, 3914, etc...
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Old 08-05-2018, 10:08 PM
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My understanding is that a lot of the smaller parts were out sourced. Which is why parts availability for 3rd Gens is sporadic. Fastbolt would know as he orders parts with some frequency.

As to fitting, the last 3rd Gens were built at Houlton (for the most part), so they probably still have people who could do it.

S&W still, or at least did a few years ago, forge their own 1911 frames. Those, along with revolver frames and other parts, 1911 slides, and plastic frame uppers are all machined on their 100+ CNC machines.

I don't know that handgun demand will slow to the point that S&W will have excess machining capacity. Also, they forge and machine parts for other companies not in the firearms industry. The last time I was there (2012) they were making cylinder block parts for Harley Davidson and plumbing fittings for some other company. That was in addition to the gun stuff they were doing.

I sure miss those tours.

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It seems unlikely. But perhaps a drop in overall gun sales would allow S&W to find time on the CNC machines to make the frames and slides - that would not be too difficult or expensive. Actually cheaper today that in yesteryear. (How many people make 1911’s today, albeit often from forgings made in the Philippines or Brazil?). The small parts and springs would be problematic and probably require outsourcing - raising issues of MIM parts made in India (which is Sig-Sauer’s way of making small parts). Then there are the fitting and labor costs...

Probably not within the realm of possibility. Although the market seems to like lots of variation and niche guns these days.

But if S&W the did it, and they surprised everyone with the niche 380 EZ, they would be wise to make slightly updated versions of the 3rd Gens that draw the best prices on the auction sites, e,g., the 3913, 3914, etc...
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Old 08-05-2018, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18DAI View Post
I don't think they will and having examined the so called "classics", I hope they dont.

They would just be cheapened knock offs of the real thing. And cost a lot more.

And then we would have to sift through them on Gunbroker while looking for the real 3rd gens. Regards 18DAI
Speaking for myself, I'd love to own a 3913-15 with lock.

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Old 08-05-2018, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Rick H. View Post
Certainly is an interesting question with a host of "possibles". Smith and Wesson COULD re-introduce the 952 if they wanted to and perhaps with a little forethought it could even be offered at a "reasonable" price. Reasonable is the key word. If Sig USA can build a Target P-210 for around $1,500.00.....

Rick H.
I don't think that $1500 is "reasonable". Especially considering the current crop of stuff coming out of the PC.

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Unfortunately Smith and Wesson seems more interested in cranking out plastic pistols, 1911 clones and AR-15's that already proliferate the market place.

Rick H.
Any gun company will make and support what is profitable.Right now polymer autos,AR15s and 1911s are what most people are buying. Big interest in metal framed autos is gone now that we have something " better ". I prefer a steel framed gun all day long for longevity and retention of value, but there is something to be said for a gun in the same caliber at 1/2 to 2/3 the weight with more capacity for carry purposes.
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Old 08-06-2018, 10:50 AM
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One of the most popular S&W guns we sell are the S&W M&P15 Sport AR-15 style rifle @ $549. At any large gun show, I see hundreds go out the door. Should they decide to make 3rd Gen guns again, they'd have to sell them for more than double the price of the polymer guns they sell. In their minds, they probably feel they wouldn't sell many, so it's not worth it to make them again. It's all about the $. GARY
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Old 08-06-2018, 11:29 AM
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I don't know that handgun demand will slow to the point that S&W will have excess machining capacity. Also, they forge and machine parts for other companies not in the firearms industry. The last time I was there (2012) they were making cylinder block parts for Harley Davidson and plumbing fittings for some other company. That was in addition to the gun stuff they were doing.
Yeah. James Debney mentioned that on the Q3 2018 earnings call, specifically.

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We have some capacity when it comes to plastic injection molding. We have some capacity when it comes to forging. But everything else is fairly well utilized.
Access to this page has been denied.

The company's strategy (or the investor pressure) seems to be get rid of excess capacity rather than utilize it like, say, Pine Tree Castings (Ruger)-- that is, as a separate business altogether.

Given the cyclic boom-and-bust nature of the gun business you'd think that would be an obviously better longer-term decision, but anything that's not cutting costs scares the MBA crowd and the CEO has to make the investors happy so...

edit: that's supposed to be a link to the q3 earnings call transcript. Don't know what the forum software is blocking it.

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Old 08-06-2018, 12:28 PM
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Ironically and for a host of reasons Sig stopped importing the German made P-210's and after a lengthy hiatus, the P-210 is now being built in the USA for our consumption. While I haven't shot one yet, I have looked at them and they seem every bit as well built as the German made pistols. From what I have read and heard the US built P-210's are quite accurate and hold their own against German and Swiss built models.
I believe that it's far too early to call this race and so far there are two distinct groups piling up. On one side you seem to have the folks who own and/or have a lot of experience with Swiss and German 210's who are disgusted with these new and very much cheapened pistols and then you have the camp of folks who are well aware of the legendary reputation of Swiss & German 210's who think they have found a lottery win in a new American production P210A at half of what Swiss 210's trade at.

I've handled the new P210A and it certainly feels like an upgrade over service and duty type guns and is obviously in a different class than the trucloads of polymer tupperware that is currently flung from hell to breakfast.

However, my only basis of comparison with the P210A is 952's, 845's, PPC-9's, other (out of production) S&W PC pistols and of course, S&W Model 52's.

And when you compare these new production P210A's to the PC pistols and 52's, they do not match up.

I have literally zero hands-on experience with Swiss and German 210's but from what I have heard... you will also not be impressed with the new P210A unless you prepare yourself for a pistol that is about half the budget of what you know in a 210.

Quote:
Now for the kicker, the Sig US built pistols cost less than the ones made in Europe, quite a bit less in fact. So it is possible to have your cake and eat it too! Smith and Wesson COULD re-introduce the 952 if they wanted to and perhaps with a little forethought it could even be offered at a "reasonable" price. Reasonable is the key word. If Sig USA can build a Target P-210 for around $1,500.00 I would think Smith and Wesson could build a 952 for close to the same price. How much did the fancy, dancey case that 952's came in add to the overall price of them?
No way, no way, no way. If they attempted, they would have a cheap copy of a legend that should be sold in a blister pack, hanging on a peg near the cash register. Smith & Wesson doesn't have the floor space, the talent or the desire to make handguns like the 52, 952 and 845 any more. This company of 2018 is nothing whatsoever like the group of men that made the guns bearing the Performance Center logo.
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Unfortunately Smith and Wesson seems more interested in cranking out plastic pistols, 1911 clones and AR-15's that already proliferate the market place.
Agree with that, however:
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While the 952 may have been a special pistol, it will never be a great pistol as far too few of them made into the hands of the unwashed masses. S&W missed the mark on that one, by a country mile.
Again, do not agree at all. There are actually quite a number of 952's that were made and maybe even more 945's. The PPC-9's, 845's, 4006 Limited, the 3566 Limited and other 5" target guns are in shorter supply.
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Old 08-18-2018, 09:20 AM
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I hope this does not get me laughed off this forum, but as dumb as is sounds, what would a poly 3913 or other Generation pistols made to the exact specs of the old classic look like? Ever since S&W discontinued these, I have always had this in the back of my mind!

Go ahead, laugh me out of here!
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Old 08-18-2018, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
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I hope this does not get me laughed off this forum, but as dumb as is sounds, what would a poly 3913 or other Generation pistols made to the exact specs of the old classic look like? Ever since S&W discontinued these, I have always had this in the back of my mind!

Go ahead, laugh me out of here!
Well, it has been done, with polymer CZ-75 clones (I think). But the engineering/molding/tooling costs would be high, and they already make M & P and Shields for the same purpose, so unlikely.
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Old 08-18-2018, 09:39 AM
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Thanks Alan. While just a thought, I can't seem to get this outta my mind with such a "cult" like following of the Gen pistols.
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Old 08-18-2018, 11:07 AM
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No, I don't see a 3rd Gen 'classic' relaunch due primarily to costs. It just would not make good business sense in todays market. As numerous posts have mentioned, previous parts outsourcing makes it even more of a nightmare.

A poly version of the 3913 Tac could actually have been a decent seller prior to the G43, M&P9 Shield, XDs et al. Too late.
Seems like consumers are headed back in the compact doublestack 9 direction now with a balance of size & capacity. SIG's P365 is a case in point.
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Old 08-18-2018, 12:18 PM
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I wasn’t impressed with a Model 10 “Classic” that I handled. And I saw a Model 29 “Classic” last week with a price tag of $1300 bucks. For that kind of money I want the real thing.

As for not being profitable, Beretta is still selling tons of 92 style guns. Sig, CZ, too. It’s not like they don’t have the machinery somewhere that is long paid for. New 3rd gen type guns would find a market.
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Old 08-18-2018, 12:53 PM
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Good point about those Beretta's, Sig & CZ!
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Old 08-18-2018, 01:18 PM
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I just dont' see it happening. With anti-semi-auto sentiment and places like CA making it legally impossible to market "new" center-fire semis I don't think the market would justify the start-up costs.
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Old 08-18-2018, 03:50 PM
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Lets hope not..........the"Classic" revolver series examples are a joke!!! Far, far cry from the originals!

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Old 08-18-2018, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchboy901 View Post
I hope this does not get me laughed off this forum, but as dumb as is sounds, what would a poly 3913 or other Generation pistols made to the exact specs of the old classic look like? Ever since S&W discontinued these, I have always had this in the back of my mind!

Go ahead, laugh me out of here!
It's not a joke!

In Dwayne Charron's book "My Life Journey With Smith & Wesson" he documents an experiment performed back in the 1960s whereby two blocks of nylon were machined into model 39 frames, then assembled and test fired.

The pistols ran fine but there was very little weight advantage over aluminum, so the project was discontinued.

It has been done and could be done again, although there doesn't seem to be sufficient demand at this time.

John
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Old 08-18-2018, 06:15 PM
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Lets hope not..........the"Classic" revolver series examples are a joke!!! Far, far cry from the originals!
Exactly. Looking at the Classic revolvers, they have a key hole above the cylinder release. The originals NEVER had that. There's plenty of nice original models out there. We just have to have some patience. GARY
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Old 08-18-2018, 06:36 PM
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Weight probably isn't the issue, production cost is. A polymer frame costs a lot less to produce than an alloy or steel frame. Which, you of course, know.

I just bought a Springfield XDE (I'll explain in a different thread). It seems to weigh about the same as a 3913 and almost the exact size of my pre rail 3913TSW. The upper is black stainless, no doubt using a process a lot like Melonite or the S&W proprietary name they use now.

My out the door cash price on the tax free weekend in MA was $392.00. A forged and machined frame version would be a lot more.

I took it to the range yesterday and it shoots very much like my 3913TSW and the controls are not terribly different.

S&W now owns the company that makes the M&P frames, to their production costs would be pretty cheap.

It seems, however, that they are now heavily invested, more than just monetarily, in striker fired semi autos, so they still probably don't have any thought of reintroducing a polymer frame 3rd Gen.

I saw, but didn't read more than a bit, a Shooting Illustrated article about a polymer frame 1911. And of course, there are polymer lowers for AR style guns.

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It's not a joke!

In Dwayne Charron's book "My Life Journey With Smith & Wesson" he documents an experiment performed back in the 1960s whereby two blocks of nylon were machined into model 39 frames, then assembled and test fired.

The pistols ran fine but there was very little weight advantage over aluminum, so the project was discontinued.

It has been done and could be done again, although there doesn't seem to be sufficient demand at this time.

John
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Old 08-18-2018, 11:52 PM
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I just bought a Springfield XDE (I'll explain in a different thread). It seems to weigh about the same as a 3913 and almost the exact size of my pre rail 3913TSW. The upper is black stainless, no doubt using a process a lot like Melonite or the S&W proprietary name they use now. .
NOOOOOO! Heresy!

Well, actually that looks like an interesting pistol.
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Old 08-19-2018, 12:12 AM
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It has been done and could be done again, although there doesn't seem to be sufficient demand at this time.

John
Wrong...

I demand they do it!
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Old 08-19-2018, 07:55 AM
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Does anyone think S&W will ever reintroduce 3rd Gen pistols in their classic line?
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Lets hope not..........the "Classic" revolver series examples are a joke!!! Far, far cry from the originals!
I'll bet the powers that be at the mothership are debating this very possibility right now as we speak!

Does the mothership have the potential to do this? Of course they do.

Does the mothership have the marketing incentive and economic motivation to do this? Sadly, not... not at this time.

Is it possible that it will happen at some point in the future? I believe it is possible and I wouldn't bet my life savings (pitifully small as it is) against it.

Do I think it will happen in my lifetime? Recognizing how few years I have left (let alone "good years") , I sincerely doubt it.

Would I buy a brand new "classic" 3rd Gen, assuming my moonbat state would allow it? Only if they are a lot more true to the originals than the revolver "classics" have turned out to be.
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Old 08-19-2018, 08:34 AM
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Thanks Alan. While just a thought, I can't seem to get this outta my mind with such a "cult" like following of the Gen pistols.
But does this "cult like following" only exist here on this forum? I mean, I never run into anyone else that ever mentions or even knows what a 3rd generation S&W is.
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Old 08-19-2018, 09:37 AM
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TTSH wants to hold an intervention for me!

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NOOOOOO! Heresy!

Well, actually that looks like an interesting pistol.
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Old 08-19-2018, 09:50 AM
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TTSH wants to hold an intervention for me!
Nonsense! I like the fact that you have gone plastic on us! "Grip Zone" plastic no less!!! I have already benefited from your abandonment of all-metal for plastic (think: Model 3914 ) and look forward to further lack of competition for the very limited supply of fine condition 3rd Gens in our illustrious moonbat state!

Intervention? No way!!!
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Old 08-19-2018, 09:54 AM
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So they can’t make any decent guns today, according to some here who use every opportunity to disparage the company, and all of a sudden they’ll produce these wonderful, perfect, 3rd Gen auto pistols?
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Old 08-19-2018, 09:55 AM
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Default Will S&W reproduce 3rd Gens in their “Classic” line?

I would rather they just start making parts again for the real 3rd gens although I know that ain’t happening


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Old 08-19-2018, 10:02 AM
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But does this "cult like following" only exist here on this forum? I mean, I never run into anyone else that ever mentions or even knows what a 3rd generation S&W is.
We keep quiet about it when we are out in public. Loose lips sink ships (and make the few top condition 3rd Gens out there disappear faster than Massachusetts can pass a new anti-gun law)!
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Old 08-19-2018, 10:45 AM
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Default Will S&W reproduce 3rd Gens in their “Classic” line?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryS View Post

I just bought a Springfield XDE (I'll explain in a different thread). It seems to weigh about the same as a 3913 and almost the exact size of my pre rail 3913TSW. The upper is black stainless, no doubt using a process a lot like Melonite or the S&W proprietary name they use now.

My out the door cash price on the tax free weekend in MA was $392.00. A forged and machined frame version would be a lot more.

I took it to the range yesterday and it shoots very much like my 3913TSW and the controls are not terribly different.

Looking forward to your review in this gun. Ive been hoping someone else would try to compete with it, since I abhor Springfield. This is the size of pistol that everyone should be making a model of in DA/SA hammer fired. I like the clean slide. One thing about the third gens that isn’t ideal imo is the slide mounted control



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Old 08-19-2018, 10:53 AM
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I’d love to see that... I’d say it’s unlikely, but I kept wishing and hoping for a 3” K frame, and lo and behold, they came out with the 2.75” 66. Now if I could just afford it...
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Old 08-19-2018, 11:27 AM
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IMO, nope! Those skilled tool makers, craftsman, techs are long retired. They worked in an era of steel. Today is the time of plastic. It’s what this generation of young gun owners know and prefer...plastic.
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Old 08-19-2018, 01:06 PM
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I sent two safety/decocker levers to BMCM for a shave and dehorn. It makes a huge difference, as you know.

The frame mounted decocker and safety on the XDE work a bit differently than on the 3rd Gens. Not a lot of difference, but requires some practice to get the hang of it.

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Looking forward to your review in this gun. Ive been hoping someone else would try to compete with it, since I abhor Springfield. This is the size of pistol that everyone should be making a model of in DA/SA hammer fired. I like the clean slide. One thing about the third gens that isn’t ideal imo is the slide mounted control



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Old 08-19-2018, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Triggernosis View Post
But does this "cult like following" only exist here on this forum? I mean, I never run into anyone else that ever mentions or even knows what a 3rd generation S&W is.
And another interesting thread here right now is about a guy that DIDN'T buy a revolver over a price conflict which has generate twice the comments of bringing back gen 3 autos has generated. We are a small cult following which means nothing to the factory. IF the factory really cared about consumers, they would start by removing the IL...
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Old 08-19-2018, 02:09 PM
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My favorite gen 3 is a model 5967 I've had from new, unfired in the box. I doubt S&W will or Lew Horton will ever remake it.

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Old 08-19-2018, 02:12 PM
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If S&W does reintroduce the 3rd gen guns it will be under the performance center name and probably cost more than what I'm willing to pay.

Personally I doubt they ever will
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