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  #51  
Old 09-19-2018, 06:33 PM
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Default M39 update

After speaking today with the NYSP, the serial number is indeed the shield number of Trooper slingerland. The pistol was dissasembled today and under magnification the following was found.
Front frame rails left and right side .094
Frame rails at the end of engraving .094
Height of frame at front .617
Serial number height .125
Machine marks consistent on both sides of frame
No indication of refinish
Markings on frame, p on front of left trigger guard, number 7 located on left lower frame upper right of lower grip screw estucheon. Ive filled out my paper work for mr jinks and enclosed photos of this pistol to him,,now we shall wait for the results, ive posted a final photo of the dissasembled pistol in my album,,thanks to all,,,regards, chris
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  #52  
Old 09-19-2018, 07:46 PM
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Special order; Presented on Retirement

Trooper's name and "years of service"??? "badge number"???? "Unit number"??

Looks like Foxy and I were typing the same thoughts.....

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Old 09-19-2018, 08:23 PM
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Doesnt surprise me because in the time frame S&W still kept spare frames in the vault that were void of serials,
would have been very easy to pull a frame, stamp serial 25 then assemble it and ship, also could have been ordered with a batch of guns for the PD.
Or could have been ordered as just a frame and assembled at the PD armory.
Had his badge number been above 1001 there would have been a big problem.
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Old 09-19-2018, 08:26 PM
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Hi guys, i recently came across a model 39 aluminum frame with a 2 digit serial number, actually the serial number is 25 any one have any insight as to history or value please this pistol is mint, thanks for your help,!,
WELCOME TO THE FORUM, Kharmakid......

I'M AN OL' GEEZER THAT'S BEEN AROUND HERE FOR A MINUTE, SO I WILL ASSUME THE RESPONSIBILITY TO PASS ON A TIP TO YOU. IF ADHERED TO, THIS WILL ENDEAR YOU TO THE FORUM AS A VALUABLE NEW MEMBER. IT IS AS FOLLOWS.....

WE LOVE GUN PORN ! ! ! THAT MEANS THAT WE SIT UP AND TAKE JOYFUL NOTICE OF POSTS ACCOMPANIED BY PHOTOS......

WE UNDERSTAND THAT IT MAY TAKE A WHILE TO MASTER THE TECHNOLOGY---BUT EVEN A COMPUTER NITWIT LIKE MYSELF, HAS LEARNED TO POST PICTURES. SO GIVE IT A TRY, AND DON'T BE AFRAID....

MEANWHILE, CONGRATS ON YOUR FINE SOUNDING M39. I CAN'T ACTUALLY ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, BUT THE NICKEL M39-2 IS MY FAVORITE S&W SEMI-AUTO PISTOL OF ALL TIME ! ! !
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  #55  
Old 09-20-2018, 08:05 AM
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WE LOVE GUN PORN ! ! ! THAT MEANS THAT WE SIT UP AND TAKE JOYFUL NOTICE OF POSTS ACCOMPANIED BY PHOTOS......
Joe, left click on his user name and then click on Visit Photo Album at the bottom of the menu that appears. His pictures are there.
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Old 09-20-2018, 11:02 AM
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I'm waiting to see what Roy's research shows. This is going to be very "educational" for all.
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Old 09-20-2018, 04:20 PM
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I had a friend in the '60s that own one with a factory dust cover on it, haven't seen one of those since.
Steve
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Old 09-20-2018, 04:44 PM
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I hope that a "Letter of Authenticity" from the SWHF that has been researched by Mr. Roy Jinks will satisfy our quest for an education
on this most interesting mod-39.
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Old 09-20-2018, 05:23 PM
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Very nice pistol. Shield #25 with the NYSP is indeed special in and of itself. What rank did he retire at? He was most certainly a high ranking officer, not just a Trooper. Considering the close working relationship that the NYSP has with their firearms suppliers, S&W providing a special pistol for this Troopers retirement gift does no surprise me in the least. Their acceptance of a firearm into service is greatly sought after by manufacturers. It is seen as legitimizing their product. Glock sales took off after the NYSP accepted them as their handgun supplier.

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Old 09-20-2018, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom S. View Post
Joe, left click on his user name and then click on Visit Photo Album at the bottom of the menu that appears. His pictures are there.
OKAY TOM, I'LL GIVE IT A TRY---AND THANKS ! ! !
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Old 09-20-2018, 09:15 PM
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This could be a five digit serial number gun that may have been reworked,altered and refinished, for what ever reason. Perhaps Sal (Model3sw) is correct, however S&W would make you up a gun in almost any legal configuration there was, if you were a VIP LEO that the sales dep't wanted to impress. Get a letter from Roy Jinks. Ed.

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  #62  
Old 09-20-2018, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom S. View Post
Joe, left click on his user name and then click on Visit Photo Album at the bottom of the menu that appears. His pictures are there.
WOW Tom, I DID JUST AS YOU SAID......

THE M39 IS GORGEOUS, AND HIS PICTURES DO IT JUSTICE. I MUST APOLOGIZE AND GIVE KUDOS TO THE KID---THANKS TO YOU ! ! !
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Old 09-20-2018, 09:56 PM
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WELCOME TO THE FORUM, Kharmakid......

I'M AN OL' GEEZER THAT'S BEEN AROUND HERE FOR A MINUTE, SO I WILL ASSUME THE RESPONSIBILITY TO PASS ON A TIP TO YOU. IF ADHERED TO, THIS WILL ENDEAR YOU TO THE FORUM AS A VALUABLE NEW MEMBER. IT IS AS FOLLOWS.....

WE LOVE GUN PORN ! ! ! THAT MEANS THAT WE SIT UP AND TAKE JOYFUL NOTICE OF POSTS ACCOMPANIED BY PHOTOS......

WE UNDERSTAND THAT IT MAY TAKE A WHILE TO MASTER THE TECHNOLOGY---BUT EVEN A COMPUTER NITWIT LIKE MYSELF, HAS LEARNED TO POST PICTURES. SO GIVE IT A TRY, AND DON'T BE AFRAID....

MEANWHILE, CONGRATS ON YOUR FINE SOUNDING M39. I CAN'T ACTUALLY ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, BUT THE NICKEL M39-2 IS MY FAVORITE S&W SEMI-AUTO PISTOL OF ALL TIME ! ! !
WELL Kharmakid, IT APPEARS THAT I OWE YOU AN APOLOGY AND KUDOS ON YOUR DROP-DEAD GORGEOUS M39, AND YOUR GREAT PICS THAT ACTUALLY DO IT JUSTICE.......

THANKS TO INSTRUCTIONS BY OUR FELLOW FORUM MEMBER Tom S. I WAS ABLE TO VIEW YOUR PHOTOS. I HAVE NO IDEA HOW HE KNEW WHERE TO LOOK.....

IN ANY EVENT, ALLOW ME TO SUGGEST THAT IN THE FUTURE YOU SIMPLY POST YOUR PICS, BELOW THE TEXT OF YOUR POSTS---SO THAT EVEN COMPUTER NITWITS LIKE MYSELF, CAN READILY VIEW THEM.....
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Old 09-20-2018, 10:38 PM
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/
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Originally Posted by opoefc View Post
This is a five digit serial number gun that has been reworked,altered and refinished, for what ever reason. Sal (Model3sw) is correct. Ed.
/
WHAT GUN ARE YOU REFERRING TO ? ? ?

IT CERTAINLY CANT BE Kharmakid's GORGEOUS M39 WITH THE 2 DIGIT SERIAL NUMBER....

IS THIS REPLY POSTED IN THE WRONG THREAD---WHAT AM I MISSING HERE ? ? ?
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Old 09-20-2018, 11:10 PM
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/
/
WHAT GUN ARE YOU REFERRING TO ? ? ?

IT CERTAINLY CANT BE Kharmakid's GORGEOUS M39 WITH THE 2 DIGIT SERIAL NUMBER....

IS THIS REPLY POSTED IN THE WRONG THREAD---WHAT AM I MISSING HERE ? ? ?
WELL SHAME ON THIS OL' GEEZER---IT TURNS OUT THAT THE PISTOL REFERRED TO IS IN ACTUALITY Kharmakid's M39 ! ! !

THIS IS GONNA GET REAL INTERESTING......
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  #66  
Old 09-21-2018, 06:38 AM
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Default M39

Well guys i guess its gonna be whatever its gonna be, im no expert but im hopeing for the best. Good or bad we are all gonna find out eventually!! Thanks to all!!!, chris
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  #67  
Old 09-21-2018, 07:41 AM
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Really looking forward to the outcome, either way.
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Old 09-21-2018, 12:02 PM
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Based on a previous post, this mod 39 has an altered Sn. and has been refinished. So the previous owner, a law enforcement officer and the present owner , a law enforcement officer, have and are in possession of an illegal gun? Am I correct?
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Old 09-21-2018, 12:10 PM
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Based on a previous post, this mod 39 has an altered Sn. and has been refinished. So the previous owner, a law enforcement officer and the present owner , a law enforcement officer, have and are in possession of an illegal gun? Am I correct?
IMHO---THAT JUST ABOUT SUMS IT UP......
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Old 09-21-2018, 12:13 PM
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Well guys i guess its gonna be whatever its gonna be, im no expert but im hopeing for the best. Good or bad we are all gonna find out eventually!! Thanks to all!!!, chris
I'M HOPING FOR THE BEST AS WELL, CHRIS......
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  #71  
Old 09-21-2018, 01:03 PM
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I can remember when ISP here in Illinois used these pistols and there is a very good reasons why they moved to another handgun.
Steve
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Old 09-21-2018, 01:12 PM
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I can remember when ISP here in Illinois used these pistols and there is a very good reasons why they moved to another handgun.
Steve
Free Glocks.

I had a state issued 39, the gun was flawless, and functioned perfectly. All the troopers I knew at the time were very proud of their 39's.
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  #73  
Old 09-21-2018, 02:04 PM
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Maybe im being optomistic about this pistol, but in nys it must be registered and placed on a nys pistol permit, if indeed it has been altered i feel bad for the family of the deceased trooper and i shall pass on the purchase. It will be unfortunate for the dealer who aquired it from the estate as well. That is the reason i came to this forum to find out the history and value,But either way i feel hopefull a letter will give an explanation,and i thank all for there input.
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Old 09-21-2018, 02:36 PM
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kharmakid, X-Ray the gun. That will tell you what was altered. If the test reveals the real serial number, restore it & the gun's legal Ed.
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  #75  
Old 09-21-2018, 02:37 PM
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Maybe im being optomistic about this pistol, but in nys it must be registered and placed on a nys pistol permit, if indeed it has been altered i feel bad for the family of the deceased trooper and i shall pass on the purchase. It will be unfortunate for the dealer who aquired it from the estate as well. That is the reason i came to this forum to find out the history and value,But either way i feel hopefull a letter will give an explanation,and i thank all for there input.
Retired NYC (not sure about NYS) Police Officers were (in the past) exempt from applying for a civilian carry permit.
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Old 09-21-2018, 02:57 PM
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kharmakid, X-Ray the gun. That will tell you what was altered. If the test reveals the real serial number, restore it & the gun's legal Ed.
NOW THAT SOUNDS LIKE A VIABLE PLAN ! ! !

I KNOW THAT THERE IS A PROCESS TO DO THAT, BUT I DID NOT REALIZE THAT IT IS MERELY A SIMPLE X-RAY. THE TECHNOLOGY IS USED TO UNCOVER THE REAL SERIAL NUMBERS ON STOLEN CARS AND MOTORCYCLES......
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Old 09-21-2018, 03:01 PM
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X-ray the gun? Where do you x-ray your guns. I need a source for this service.
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Old 09-21-2018, 03:03 PM
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BTW---IF 25 IS NOT THE ACTUAL SERIAL NUMBER, A REQUEST FOR A HISTORICAL LETTER, AT THIS STAGE OF THE INVESTIGATION, WILL BE A WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY....
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Old 09-21-2018, 03:13 PM
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I know nyc laws are different than the rest of nys, when i left the pd i was required to have a nys pistol permit to carry a handgun,,im not even sure where the heck you would take a firearm to get x-rayed, i guess more research is needed on my end,
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Old 09-21-2018, 03:30 PM
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Chris, my local 7-11 has an x-ray machine right by the copier and the newspaper stand. Everybody takes their guns there. Wow, what kind of third world country do you live in.
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Old 09-21-2018, 05:35 PM
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I know nyc laws are different than the rest of nys, when i left the pd i was required to have a nys pistol permit to carry a handgun,,im not even sure where the heck you would take a firearm to get x-rayed, i guess more research is needed on my end,
Ed Cornett (opoefc) is a retired LEO and retired Gunsmith to the movie stars of Hollywood going back to the 1950s. Ed is precisely on point, if you really want to know. To me, the features, as shown, disqualify that it could have possibly been an original SN: 25 which I think is what you're trying to verify. If you need proof, one way or the other, this is the way to go. The other way is to chemically strip the finish, which you wouldn't want to do unless absolutely necessary.

I had thought to suggest the same type test (radiography or x-ray) but didn't think it was a solution you'd consider although the results will be conclusive and irrefutable.

A metallurgist will be able to answer that question of who could do it if he cannot. I work with a metallurgy lab in Davie, Florida. He tests automotive, aircraft and marine components for causation in component failure cases.

Naturally, I research auto components for causation on metal component failure cases but will work just as well on firearms. In Neal & Jinks (IIRC) there were a slew of "radiograph" images (x-rays) of S&Ws. Check for a accredited metallurgist near you.
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Old 09-21-2018, 05:37 PM
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X-ray the gun? Where do you x-ray your guns. I need a source for this service.
Mike, not too far from you: QC Metallurgy in Davie, Florida. Tell them I sent you and they will charge you double.
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Old 09-21-2018, 06:17 PM
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Actually the thought of it being the original number did cross my mind,but was quickly dispelled as info began pouring in,,my thoughts then turned to that of a presentation piece given for service, the trooper spent 20 years in service with a 10 years as a senior firearms instructor,after that he was the president of the nysp historical division as well as a judge for a great many years,,i was of the opinion it was a custom numbered pistol,he was very well regarded in our community,,hence the interest in this pistol
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Old 09-21-2018, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by kharmakid View Post
Actually the thought of it being the original number did cross my mind,but was quickly dispelled as info began pouring in,,my thoughts then turned to that of a presentation piece given for service, the trooper spent 20 years in service with a 10 years as a senior firearms instructor,after that he was the president of the nysp historical division as well as a judge for a great many years,,i was of the opinion it was a custom numbered pistol,he was very well regarded in our community,,hence the interest in this pistol
I'm of the educated opinion that it has been modified or customized seemingly only for the serial number as nothing else is unusual nor exotic, except his name engraved in the side. This was a gun he loved, I would think.

As it seems he was a revered local celebrity status LEO and judge the value in excess of a standard MODEL 39 would be to those who collect such items and likely worth more in that local area, but, still needs to be verified of "what" it is. To others, this would be a detraction form the standard value of an equal condition MODEL 39.

I don't feel this is work of S&W factory quality but you never know, it might be ! I don't think the letter from S&W will reveal anything monumental unless the work was done at S&W and would likely be sometime in the late 1960s or more recent (I think). This feels like a local quality gunsmith or more likely the PD armorer, may have modified this one.

What I can say, conclusively, it is not one of the fabled "missing links" of the pre-release serial numbers that were lower than the first commercial release of Serial Number: 1001.

The only few examples of those are X prefix, with 3 digits, on a variety of frame revisions (one, owned by Richard McMillan with a side access plate) but ALL without model number and all with the short duck tail frames.

I don't think it would be a difficult to have the frame X-Ray-ed. Find an accredited Metallurgist near you, ask him what he charges and ask him to do a few focal ranges, if possible, the first focused on the serial number area.

PS: Just give the metallurgist the frame only, with the stocks removed. Keep the complete slide assembly, slide stop and magazine home.
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Old 09-21-2018, 09:56 PM
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Actually the thought of it being the original number did cross my mind,but was quickly dispelled as info began pouring in,,my thoughts then turned to that of a presentation piece given for service, the trooper spent 20 years in service with a 10 years as a senior firearms instructor,after that he was the president of the nysp historical division as well as a judge for a great many years,,i was of the opinion it was a custom numbered pistol,he was very well regarded in our community,,hence the interest in this pistol
IMHO, THIS IS A VERY PLAUSIBLE EXPLANATION, CHRIS.....

THE NO. 25 MAY INDICATE THAT THIS IS THE 25TH SUCH AWARD PRESENTED TO A VERY WORTHY RECIPIENT, BY THE NYSP.....

THAT BEING SAID, THERE MAY BE SOME RECORD OF THE AWARDING IN A LEDGER--OR PERHAPS ENGRAVED ON A PLAQUE, IN THE NYSP HISTORICAL DIVISION.........
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Old 09-21-2018, 10:09 PM
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OKAY TOM, I'LL GIVE IT A TRY---AND THANKS ! ! !
Hey there I see that you are truly excited about this but you don't have to SHOUT, turn the caps off, it make is easier to read. I too am interested in the outcome of this fine handgun as another S&W owner. I like Made in America Firearms even if they are old and used. They are just one of the things that Make America Great Again is all about. and I love your input, gets us all think.
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Old 09-21-2018, 10:16 PM
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A thought.....
Didn't the factory do a special number for Jack Webb to match his famous badge number?
Certainly to have this done someone somewhere along the line would have to have considerable clout... Is it a possibility? If so, would there not be a record of this?
Just thinking out loud....
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Old 09-22-2018, 08:59 AM
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I can remember when ISP here in Illinois used these pistols and there is a very good reasons why they moved to another handgun.
Steve
Actually, the ISP replaced the Model 39 with the S&W Model 439 around 1980, and replaced the 439 with the S&W Model 5904 in the late 1980s. What they did after that, I don't know, cuz I was retired by then.
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Old 09-22-2018, 07:48 PM
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Actually the thought of it being the original number did cross my mind,but was quickly dispelled as info began pouring in,,

Slow Down!!!!
The Factory DID make a Mod 39 with serial # 25.
That is about all I can say here.
GET a LETTER!
Send GOOD pics with the request.
CLICK for the letter form-

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Old 09-23-2018, 05:17 AM
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Thank you!!!
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Old 09-23-2018, 07:57 AM
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Going down the rabbit hole of "illegal altered serial number" is not helpful in this case. No BATFE agent in their right mind is interested in this case, no wiuld they ever be. Wait for the letter, the contact S&W directly about the gun if there is anything hinky about it.
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Old 09-23-2018, 08:23 AM
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Slow Down!!!!
The Factory DID make a Mod 39 with serial # 25.
That is about all I can say here.
GET a LETTER!
Send GOOD pics with the request.
CLICK for the letter form-

Smith & Wesson Collectors Association

I SERIOUSLY HOPE THAT THIS IS TRUE---ALTHOUGH I CAN'T IMAGINE HOW YOU WOULD KNOW, AND WHY YOU CAN SAY NO MORE....

ITS ALL ABOVE MY PAY GRADE, AND MY "TOP SECRET" VIETNAM CRYPTO CLEARANCE IS IRRELEVANT ! ! !
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Old 09-23-2018, 11:05 AM
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OKAY TOM, I'LL GIVE IT A TRY---AND THANKS ! ! !
Hey Joe,

Another thing that may help, ALL UPPER CASE MEANS YOU ARE SHOUTING! OF COURSE I'M AN OLD TIMER TOO AND JUST HARD OF HEARING SO I'M USED TO BEING SHOUTED AT.

It's not a problem, just thought I'd mention it - you keep posting any way you want to...
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Old 09-23-2018, 12:48 PM
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I'll take it. My badge number was 25. LOL!!
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Old 09-23-2018, 01:09 PM
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In regard to the comments about unmarked M-39 pistols being in Vietnam, I posted some time ago on a thread about seeing a totally unmarked M-39 in the possession of a Navy "swimmer" I got stuck in a terminal at the Da Nang air base with. He let me look at and feel the pistol, after he removed the magazine from it. I did not know that it was a M-39 until sometime after the war. It had no S&W logo or any numbers on it anywhere. That would have been in about November of 1966. After the war, during my first job, I worked with a former Navy Seal. He found out I had been in VN so he and I became pals. He told me that he got badly wounded and he could barely remember being picked up by a helicopter. He said that when he woke up he was in a field hospital and his Rolex watch and his "unmarked" 9mm pistol were missing. I am sure there were not thousands of sterile M-39s over there and any record keeping of them would have been at a very high level if it existed at all and company policy would still hold that type of information secret. Believe what you will and doubt what you will but I saw one such pistol and heard of another.
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Old 09-23-2018, 02:16 PM
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Very nice indeed!! Congratulations iggy on your beautifull tribute!!!

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Old 09-23-2018, 02:16 PM
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So Pool Hall Johnny and Vito were selling drop guns to the SEALS!
Who knew. S&W would never do anything like this. Yea, right.
When the cash crosses the desk, the deal is done.
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Old 09-23-2018, 02:42 PM
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In regard to the comments about unmarked M-39 pistols being in Vietnam, I posted some time ago on a thread about seeing a totally unmarked M-39 in the possession of a Navy "swimmer" I got stuck in a terminal at the Da Nang air base with. He let me look at and feel the pistol, after he removed the magazine from it. I did not know that it was a M-39 until sometime after the war. It had no S&W logo or any numbers on it anywhere. That would have been in about November of 1966. After the war, during my first job, I worked with a former Navy Seal. He found out I had been in VN so he and I became pals. He told me that he got badly wounded and he could barely remember being picked up by a helicopter. He said that when he woke up he was in a field hospital and his Rolex watch and his "unmarked" 9mm pistol were missing. I am sure there were not thousands of sterile M-39s over there and any record keeping of them would have been at a very high level if it existed at all and company policy would still hold that type of information secret. Believe what you will and doubt what you will but I saw one such pistol and heard of another.
I TOTALLY BELIEVE EVERY BIT OF THAT STORY ! ! !

A DISASSEMBLED PISTOL COULD BE MAILED TO THE STATES IN PIECES, IN SEVERAL DIFFERENT PACKAGES OF OTHER STUFF. THE EARLIER IN THE WAR, THE EASIER IT WAS....

MORE IMPORTANTLY TO ME---WELCOME HOME MY BROTHER ! ! !
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Old 09-23-2018, 02:52 PM
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Welcome home to you too One Eye
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Old 09-23-2018, 03:22 PM
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kharmakid, might I make a suggestion? Since the pistol’s original owner was a NYSP trooper and you are a retired officer/deputy from NY, how about contacting the NYSP Pistol Licence Bureau in Albany...? I’m sure with minimal explaining and some professional courtesy, the trooper there, or a supervisor there, could/would research not only the pistol but also do a name look-up on the NYSP trooper/owner. This will likely reveal the pistol’s origin.
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Last edited by demkofour; 09-23-2018 at 03:28 PM.
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