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Old 09-28-2018, 02:34 AM
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Optics for Model 41 for Target Shooting? Optics for Model 41 for Target Shooting? Optics for Model 41 for Target Shooting? Optics for Model 41 for Target Shooting? Optics for Model 41 for Target Shooting?  
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Default Optics for Model 41 for Target Shooting?

I'm old and need some help in the sighting dept. I want to target shoot (indoor & outdoor) what do you guys think is a good optics for that purpose.
Red Dot, Green Dot? Open to any and all suggestions.
Of course, since I will be using both 5" and 7" barrels I would like to keep the weight reasonable.
So what's the best bang for the buck for this "old" shooter?
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Old 09-28-2018, 05:57 AM
batman4706 batman4706 is offline
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Value wise the Nikon P-TACTICAL SPUR and Vortex Venom are both in the $200 range and work great on my Model 41s.
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Old 09-28-2018, 06:14 AM
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Hi,
The most competitive option would be to get an optic ready M41 barrel from Clark Custom Guns. It's a drop-in 5" barrel, with integral milled optic rail. They're a bit more accurate than the factory barrels and light enough to compensate for the weight of a sight.
If you want to use one of the factory barrels, I'd choose the 5". The short length cuts down barrel time of the bullet. The long barrel advantage is in the long sight radius if shooting iron sights.
I don't know if you're factory barrel is optic ready, so drill and tapping is the likely route. A nice dot sight is the German made "Docter". Very nice quality. I think the Burris Fast Fire is close.

Best Wishes,
Jim
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Old 09-28-2018, 12:31 PM
Bastogne71 Bastogne71 is offline
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Here is a photo of my M41 with a Docter red dot that 6string mentioned. The base is a Weaver that has been cut down so two mounting screws attach the base to the barrel and one Weaver slot remains for the sight. This allows the rear sight to remain in place and can be used with base in place if you remove the Docter. I like this setup because it puts the line of sight close to the barrel and because of the minimum bulk & weight.
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Old 09-28-2018, 01:47 PM
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Another option is an Ultradot 1" 4 MOA red dot sight or Sightron S-30 . Both are tube type & readily available for less than $ 175 . If barrel is already drilled & tapped Weaver makes a base that will screw right on for less than $ 20 . Many Bullseye shooters use this setup . If factory barrel isn't up to snuff accuracy wise before I bought a Clark barrel I'd get factory one relined . Alex Hamilton of Ten Ring Precision does an excellent job & uses Walther Lothar liners . I had him do a 5 1/2" for me that'll hold 3/4" 10 round group @ 50yds with cheap Aguila SV . Took him less than a week turnaround time .

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Old 09-28-2018, 03:04 PM
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If you have not looked thru a red dot sight, I do that first. I got red dots for my old 70yr. old eyes on a couple of my shooters. Low and behold my near 70 yr. old eyes see a small jagged triangle with a dot at each corner of the triangle . Sounds like this is a fairly common problem for us old guys.

It isn't so bad on the smaller dot settings (have 11-12 settings on both dot sights). Still like them, and shoot better than the steel sights.

The model 41 has the Ultra dot 30MM. Like it better than the 1 inch., easier/faster to acquire target.
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Old 09-28-2018, 03:44 PM
Barrie Barrie is offline
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I agree with the other posters are saying. Definitely Look thru all the different types of sights before you buy as once you buy it its yours so take your time and get the correct one for you. There are many excellent products out there on the marketplace so take your time.
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Old 09-28-2018, 04:00 PM
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I used to shoot an older 41 in a league with pretty good success. I have a Clark target bbl that I got lucky and found used at a gun show and a 1” Ultra dot. That is a good combination but I preferred iron sights before the eyes went.
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Old 09-28-2018, 09:09 PM
Rowlf Rowlf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boatbum101 View Post
.... If factory barrel isn't up to snuff accuracy wise before I bought a Clark barrel I'd get factory one relined . Alex Hamilton of Ten Ring Precision does an excellent job & uses Walther Lothar liners . I had him do a 5 1/2" for me that'll hold 3/4" 10 round group @ 50yds with cheap Aguila SV . Took him less than a week turnaround time .
Alex Hamilton of Ten Ring Precision also relined my 5 1/2" barrel and I can highly recommend his work. X ring accurate at 50 yards with several 30 shot groups of CCI SV and better.

I use a Clark Match barrel and an Aimpoint H-1 with Tott hoods for indoor league if the lighting is poor. (I like iron sights and corrective lens glasses best)
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Old 09-29-2018, 04:29 PM
Wise_A Wise_A is online now
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Apologies in advance if any of this offends people's selection in optics.

Open-style red dots have no business being on a precision pistol. There are three things generally wrong with them:

(1) Excessive parallax
(2) Square frame
(3) Poor quality dot for the money

Parallax can't be corrected, worked-around, or overcome. If you're bothering to shoot a decent .22LR, then variations of .2" at 17 yards matter. Open-style dots just don't do that.

The square frame is less of a problem than a "sub-optimal". What you want is a round dot on a circular target inside a circular frame. The human eye is very good at centering that image up. A round dot in a round target inside a rectangular frame is less natural.

Open-style dots also have very poor-quality reticles compared to similar or even less-expensive tube-style dots. Similarly, they often lack sufficient manual brightness controls. Frequently, they might have 11 or 12 brightness levels, but only in automatic mode. That's fine, until you're shooting a well-lit target on a dark background--the sight's light meter will read the dark background, and adjust the brightness too far down.

Get a tube-style 'dot.

On Weight

You're shooting a Model 41, probably one of the most muzzle-heavy target .22s in common use. The weight of the optic isn't going to make a difference one way or the other.

Suitable tube-style 'dots really don't weigh that much, so there's not much of a point trying to either select for a lighter optic, or use an open-style sight.

On Barrel Length

Let's suppose CCI SV had a muzzle velocity of only 1000 feet per second, just so I have to do less math. That translates to 12,000 inches per second, which means that the bullet travels one inch in 1/12,000th of a second.

So moving to a 7" barrel from a 5" barrel means the bullet will be in there 1/6000th of a second longer. A single beat of a hummingbird's wings takes 1/70th of a second.

No, bullet/barrel dwell time doesn't matter. 5" barrel lengths are really popular strictly because that tends to balance really well for most people.

Stuff I Actually Recommend

Sub-$100, I used to push the Bushnell TRS-25. Unfortunately, I think their quality has diminished, and there are a lot of Chinese counterfeits out there. Somehow the price has also dropped from ~$90 to $45-$50, which strongly suggests they've cheaped out the design without changing the name.

Instead, maybe look at the Primary Arms Micro Red Dot MD-RBGII. It goes for $90 and the guys that have it say it doesn't suck.

Over $100, Ultradot-25. You don't need the Matchdot with the fancy reticles.

Over $200, and you're into real money and should have a better idea than that. Personally, I wouldn't go beyond the UD-25 unless I was willing to drop $400-$600, which I really can't justify.
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Old 09-29-2018, 06:07 PM
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I have red dots (and green) on many pistols, but the two Model 41's I shoot both have Leupold 2.5-8 variable powered pistol scopes on them. 2.5 works well for target and the higher power from a rest is just plain deadly.



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Old 09-29-2018, 10:14 PM
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That's an optic-mounted pistol, Tom.
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Old 09-29-2018, 11:12 PM
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Wise A nailed it in post #10.

The classic Gil Hebard setup was a model 41 with the heavy 5" barrel and the Ultra Dot 25mm red dot.

This set up was pictured on his 2007 Catalog cover and is still seen all over.This past Monday there were three old guys besides myself out of 18 shooters with the identical set up.
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Old 09-29-2018, 11:27 PM
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For absolute accuracy, I like a good quality pistol scope with an adjustable objective. I have a couple Burris pistol scopes that are currently on 22's. But for red dots, I like the Ultradots. I have a regular Ultradot and a Matchdot. Both are great. I have the Ultradot on a Ruger 22 and the Matchdot on a 686+.
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Old 09-30-2018, 01:29 AM
leinster lad leinster lad is offline
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I ended up putting a MatchDot ll on my M41-PC.
I used a cantilevered mount ( to get the sight rearward )
The sight is "hollow" underneath which allows sighting with the iron sights.
I did also replace the front sight with a green fiber optic from EWK arms.
Works a treat
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Old 09-30-2018, 07:40 AM
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Aimpoint Micro H-1 was mounted on my Model 41 for years. It made it too easy for casual shooting so I took it off and only shoot open sights now. On my Ruger Mark III Hunter I have a Ultradot Match Dot. That also makes it too easy.
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Old 09-30-2018, 08:42 AM
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I have recently been adding red dots to my revolvers and rifles, I also vote for the new Nikon P-tactical(hate the name), anyway its a reasonably priced nice light red dot(tube style) at $200 I have four of them. I prefer tube vs reflex, as my astigmatism is less noticeable with a tube. I also have have two Trijicon MROs, the green dot verison. They are really top shelf, but difficult to justify twice the cost of the Nikons, With my eyes the Trijicons are ever so slightly sharper. The Nikon and Trijicon are both 2 moa dots....which means they cover a .5 inch at 25yrds. Keep this in mind for how precise work you are trying to do.
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Old 09-30-2018, 10:03 AM
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The overwhelmingly most popular red dot sights in our state-wide Bullseye league, on 41s and everything else, are various models of UltraDots, with the original MatchDot probably being the most common. I have 7 of them on different target guns and have never had any problems.
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Old 09-30-2018, 01:39 PM
boatbum101 boatbum101 is offline
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If you think a 41 is muzzle heavy , you've never shot a Pardini or Walther GSP .
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Old 10-02-2018, 09:34 PM
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I'm from the old school that believes one should never drill and tap a 41, unless it comes with the factory rail for mounting optics without drill and tap, as it destroys it's value.
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Old 10-02-2018, 11:06 PM
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I believe there was some barrels from the factory that came drilled and tapped ready to have a small Red Dot or scope installed on them. Being factory should not hurt the value I would think. Both of my old Beauty's are way to old to have this done to them.
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Old 10-03-2018, 12:54 AM
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I have a Burris fast fire on my 41 I drilled just two holes and used a low profile mounting adapter for the fast fire. It works great.

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Old 10-03-2018, 01:16 AM
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Default Optics for Model 41

Thanks for all the great ideas, I do have my choice of pistols as you can see.
I have a very old red dot as you can see on one of my 41's.
I really don't want to drill and tap any of my guns. I think I have enough to choose one that is already tapped.
Again, Thank you for all advice, I will sort through all of it and see what is going to work for me.
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Old 10-09-2018, 02:29 AM
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Question barrel replacement & fitting

I was recently told by a S & W customer support person that changing barrels on a model 41 requires fitting. It was part of a broader conversation and I didn't pursue the point.

I assumed it meant that I can't just pick up a new barrel and expect it to work. Instead, I assumed, a gunsmith or similar would need to work on it.

I'm thinking about changing barrels. I'm interested in your comments about this (aside from my having assumed too much ).

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Old 10-09-2018, 08:27 AM
Wise_A Wise_A is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boatbum101 View Post
If you think a 41 is muzzle heavy , you've never shot a Pardini or Walther GSP .
They are. Hence why I qualified it as "one of" and "common".

My 1911-22 is actually 8-9 oz heavier than a 41, but I find it far less fatiguing to shoot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CEra
I was recently told by a S & W customer support person that changing barrels on a model 41 requires fitting.
Sometimes. I've heard of a few cases where it was a real pita. Do a search on the forum and you'll find some.

But I don't personally know anyone that's swapped a 41 barrel and run into fitting issues. I will say, however, that many/most were aftermarket barrels.
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Old 10-09-2018, 12:11 PM
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I have had Mod 41's with multiple barrels bought as different times and never had a problem mounting them. I know of others that have two barrels one with irons ant the other with red dot and switch back and forth.

One of the lightest options is the heads up type red dots (or green dots), such as the Burris FastFire, Vortex, Leupold, Doctor etc. especially if you are still shooting Bullseye (one handed) competition.
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Old 10-09-2018, 03:36 PM
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I've tried several barrels on my M-41 frame and they all functioned & fit properly, although with some barrels the trigger guard wasn't as easy to put back to it's normal position after replacement or exchange. I think that could produce a situation requiring a little fitting if it was worse. I also believe the older M-41's must have been more consistent as to fitting or, at least closer to fitting properly since all mine are elderly. BUT: All this is personal opinion based on personal experience with no technical basis so it's only worth what it cost.
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Old 10-10-2018, 02:34 AM
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I have a 60 year old M-41 and recently picked up a new shorter barrel and it swaps out just fine with no fitting. As mentioned above if the trigger guard is hard to close a little fitting may be needed and there may be some other fitment issues but mine have been no problem.
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:48 PM
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Thanks for sharing your slide changing experiences. Once I solve the FTF problem with my M41 described in another thread, I'll think about getting a barrel for optics.
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