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Old 10-02-2018, 04:54 PM
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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Default I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9. And then...

I've read with some interest 18DAI's several threads & commentaries praising the diminutive CS9 so I thought to myself... Self? 'maybe you need to get hold of one of those some day'. Well, I've been heavily invested in .45ACP for many decades and like the keep the number of differing calibers in the collection to a minimum. Another consideration is I have pretty large mitts and typically don't shoot consistently with little tiny guns. So I promptly filed that CS9 thought away for future reference.

Well about 10 days ago I took delivery of a Member's CS9 for some work. Upon handling the thing I was stunned. This little shooter just has a great hand feel. Solid, stable and points well & fast. Ugh! So I went right out and bought one.

So here's the new member of the family.

As is my wont to mess with things I changed the sights. The plastic backsight is rubbish so I took a 10-8 Performance 1911 sight and made some adjustments to the dovetail base to fit the S&W cut. Blackened the machining with some Caswell goop and stuck it on there.

That 10-8 sight mates perfectly with the angled rear on the slide.


I was going to stick a F/O front on there but screwed up and ordered the wrong part. Then I remembered I have a XS Big Dot in a drawer somewhere, so I dug that out and stuck it on there as a place holder.


Nary a blemish here indicative of very little mileage on this gun


It was bone dry and very clean, little evidence of firing but not much. I stuck a new recoil spring in there and lubed up what needs lubing. Now waiting on tomorrows case of ammo delivery and looking forward to Saturday at the range.

Ugh, need to order up some leather kit too

This is all your fault

Cheers
Bill
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Old 10-02-2018, 04:58 PM
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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He worked that same trick on me. My checkbook's still reeling.
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Old 10-02-2018, 05:18 PM
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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Congrats BMCM!!!

It is a great little gun. I have used my stainless CS9 almost everyday since I got it. I have TercGen grips on both my stainless and black CS9s. The chopped Delrin grips that talented fellow makes really changes how the gun hides, feels and shoots. All for the better! I highly recommend you contact him and order a set.

I do put a rubber grip sleeve on mine. Simply to anchor the little gun during firing. I also run 147 grain Ranger RA9B through mine. Back in the day when Winchester was trying to sell their Ranger line to agencies in my area the rep told us that they had designed the 147 RA9T and RA9B to expand and penetrate when fired from sub 4 inch barrels.

I use a DeSantis Nemesis holster for a G27 for my CS9. A Don Hume JIT slide for a 3913 works well too. And Ken Null, who holds all the original Seven Trees holster patents is still making holsters too. Quality stuff - but not inexpensive.

I look forward to your range report and shooting impressions. Hopefully Jeppo will be posting a range report soon too. Wait till I introduce Jeppo to the 4516s and 4513s. He is going to need a second job. Regards 18DAI
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Old 10-02-2018, 05:26 PM
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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My range report? Shooting the CS9, I range from barely on the paper to "where'd that one go?".

This is what he did to me just since June.
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Old 10-02-2018, 05:35 PM
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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I can't be blamed for that DAO CS9D! I never recommend DAO guns.

Hell, start buying DAO guns and the next thing you know you might be buying that ugly striker fired plastic junk. As for all the others.......you are welcome!

A very nice collection you are amassing Jeppo. Quickly too! Regards 18DAI
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Old 10-02-2018, 05:51 PM
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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I bought the DAO because it was NIB and I wanted to preserve its virtue.

About buying plastic striker fired wonders, I'm doing that too but for an equally altruistic reason. I figure if I help them stay in business, they'll keep producing all those little bits and pieces to keep the wonderful metal guns running.

I promised myself I wouldn't stray from 22, 9 and 38 in order to keep my ammo inventory under control. Well, a 4513TSW changed all that and a 4516-1 and CS45 followed along quickly.
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Old 10-02-2018, 06:40 PM
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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Before my fire last Spring I routinely carried my newly acquired (maybe a year or so, maybe two) CS-9. I used to always carry my CS-45 until I switched back to revolvers and 9mm. Those are GREAT guns!
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Old 10-03-2018, 06:30 AM
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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I second the Tercgen grips! He does great work. I gave my CS9 the internal fluff and buff and new sights and it has been my main carry gun for the past couple of months. Already showing a little holster wear but thatís ok!
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Old 10-03-2018, 08:41 AM
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I swear you guys are trying to talk me into one!!!!!

Can Hogue wood grips be modified to work on the CS9???????
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Old 10-03-2018, 09:26 AM
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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You can't blame me . But if you need to , go ahead . You did such nice work on my CS10 , I had to send it to you , and after what you've had to do to it , boy am I glad I did ! I've got a CS45 coming , so you will get that too .
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Old 10-03-2018, 10:34 AM
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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Congratulations on the new to you CS9. Soon you will go get a CS45 to go along with it.
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Old 10-03-2018, 10:47 AM
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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BAM-BAM If you get one and put the TercGen grips on it, I'd wager it will be the only gun you will carry. Its that good.

My 3914NL has not left the safe since I got my CS9s. Regards 18DAI
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Old 10-03-2018, 03:17 PM
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BAM-BAM If you get one and put the TercGen grips on it, I'd wager it will be the only gun you will carry. Its that good.

My 3914NL has not left the safe since I got my CS9s. Regards 18DAI
So is it for sale?
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Old 10-03-2018, 03:39 PM
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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So is it for sale?
I second that...

with cash
face to face
in a New York minute!!!!

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Old 10-03-2018, 04:17 PM
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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Congrats on the CS9 BMCM!

Like you, I'd not really considered ever owning a CS9. I had a 3913 for my 9, and a CS45 and 4513TSW (old version) and thought I was well equipped.

Then, of course, one day I was bored and made the mistake of borrowing the CS9 that belonged to head instructor/armorer. It handled, balanced and pointed even better than my well-liked 3913. Well, damn. I wanted one.

I quickly ordered a CS9 from the factory. By that time the ones being shipped were the newer versions, with steel sights and ambi levers.

The CS9 quickly became a favorite. It's shortened, brisk cycling brought the sights back on-target quicker, and the shorter slide/muzzle seemed to provide what I can best describe as a faster, more "livelier handling" when addressing targets.

I like it better than the Shield 9, which is why I never got around to ordering a Shield.

(Of course, I later picked up a late production 3913TSW, but that was because it was my last issued 3rd gen duty weapon and I was offered the opportunity to buy it as they were being phased out. That's another story. )
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Old 10-03-2018, 04:42 PM
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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A question or two for fellows who carry their CS9 on occasion or often....

What's your preference in carry and training ammo?

I went with standard pressure Speer lawman 147 TMJ for the training role and the matching loading with Speer's 147 Gold Dot projectile for carry. This stuff was delivered today ahead of my Saturday trip to the range.

I was also looking at Winchester's RA9B and RA9BA but seemed out of stock about everywhere although I didn't search too hard.

I pretty much stick with either Speer or Winchester LE ammo for guns I carry frequently except for 10mm where I go with Underwood's 165gr loadings.

How's this little shooter hold up to +p loadings?

How about Federal's HST loadings?

I'm not remotely considering any +p+ loads for this little guy. If I need more horsepower for some reason I'll just go up a millimeter or so.

Cheers
Bill
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Old 10-03-2018, 05:16 PM
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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I'm not remotely considering any +p+ loads for this little guy. If I need more horsepower for some reason I'll just go up a millimeter or so.
That barrel must be seriously worn if it'll run 10mm.
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Old 10-03-2018, 05:40 PM
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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A question or two for fellows who carry their CS9 on occasion or often....

What's your preference in carry and training ammo?

I went with standard pressure Speer lawman 147 TMJ for the training role and the matching loading with Speer's 147 Gold Dot projectile for carry. This stuff was delivered today ahead of my Saturday trip to the range.

I was also looking at Winchester's RA9B and RA9BA but seemed out of stock about everywhere although I didn't search too hard.

I pretty much stick with either Speer or Winchester LE ammo for guns I carry frequently except for 10mm where I go with Underwood's 165gr loadings.

How's this little shooter hold up to +p loadings?

How about Federal's HST loadings?

I'm not remotely considering any +p+ loads for this little guy. If I need more horsepower for some reason I'll just go up a millimeter or so.

Cheers
Bill
Personally, I just used whatever was being issued at the time. That included 147gr from a couple of the big names over the years, and then 127gr +P+ W-W RA9SXTP or RA9TA (depending on the time line), and then 124gr +P (Golden Sabre and T-Series for a while, but then some HST when the other brands became quite costly after dropping off the state contract).

I still carry one or another of the same loads, having worked to buy and acquire a supply of my own over time.

Whenever using the +P or +P+ loads for any consistent length of time for range training, quals and practice, I replace the recoil spring a little sooner than was normally suggested in armorer classes (regarding rounds fired). I usually bought the recoil springs 5-10 at a time, so I always some on hand for both my CS9 and CS45. I still try to keep my spare springs stocked in that manner.

Back when W-W had revised their SXT line to lower the velocity window, when they reportedly saw that LE was starting to favor some shorter barrel guns for off-duty and plainclothes, we hosted one of the W-W mobile gel events. The head instructor used his CS9 to test-fire a couple shots in the 4LD test, using the then-current 147gr RA9T & 127gr RA9TA.

I later pulled the recovered bullets and took pictures of them (which was handy, as the poster-board exhibit the W-W rep had made for us of that day's results eventually disappeared).

The velocities obtained in the short 3" barrel produced these amount of expansion. The 147gr RA9T is on the left, and the 127gr bullet is on the right.



This was an example of the results obtained shooting the same loads through a 4" 3rd gen S&W (it was either a 5903 or a 5906, but I can't remember anymore).



I stopped worrying about expansion when using any of the more modern good quality JHP's made by the big names who chased LE contracts. It's always going to be unpredictable, and virtually a coin toss. No guarantees.

Personally, I consider both the 147gr and the 124gr +P loads to be fine options. The 127gr +P+ is likely going to be harder on guns over time, so I've generally limited my use of it for training and practice to a few mag loads a year, and have instead used a lot more of the 147gr & 124gr loads (because the price was right ).

I slowly added some more SXT/T-Series loads to my own stash (it helped that the W-W LE distributor is in the SF East Bay Area, and stocked enough to sell at individual officer pricing), and surprisingly still have a mix of the earlier revisions of them. I think I may still even have a couple of boxes I picked up of the subsequent 147gr version with the Tan boxes labeled T-Series instead of SXT (but both used the symbol code of RA9T). I don't think I kept any of the black Ranger T-Series boxes, just dumped the rounds loose into something for range use, but by then they were the 124gr +P version.


I still have some of the older 90's vintage 127gr +P+ that was from that canceled NYPD contract (they went with 124gr GDHP, and there was a bit of an interesting back story offered at that time). They were sold as made, meaning a Q-load in plain white boxes. They were produced with nickeled cases and no black Lubalox coating. I got them on the wholesale market when W-W decided to just dump them on the market. Surprisingly, I found I still have what appears to be loose rounds from a few boxes of them (I was using them for range ammo back then).

The canceled NYPD 127gr +P+ is on the left in these pics.

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Old 10-03-2018, 06:25 PM
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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Thanks Fastbolt....Valuable info there...Much appreciated
I'm well stocked for now with the Speer 147gr loads.
I'm likely going to pick up some RA9T at some point

I usually avoid +p or +p+ except in all steel guns... My 4506 will happily digest buckets of RA45TP all day long. I think for a compact alloy frame I'll stay with standard pressure loads.

Thanks again.

Cheers
Bill
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Old 10-03-2018, 07:17 PM
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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Carry 147 HST. I would like to get ahold of some RA9T as well but it never seems available when Iím looking. Range ammo is usually a mixed bag of 115 RemBucket and 124 Fiocci. I have run a total of about 30 rounds of the HST through it as well. No major POI change. Feels good.
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Old 10-03-2018, 07:32 PM
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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I wonder what velocity one gets in that short barrel by going from standard pressure to +P to +P+. When I regularly carried a CS9 (not often as a civillian who depending on the Texas weather would also carry a 908 or 6906) I carried Winchester 147 gr at standard pressure.
I like a heavy bullet that has momentum to keep driving.
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Old 10-03-2018, 08:01 PM
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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Thanks Fastbolt....Valuable info there...Much appreciated
I'm well stocked for now with the Speer 147gr loads.
I'm likely going to pick up some RA9T at some point

I usually avoid +p or +p+ except in all steel guns... My 4506 will happily digest buckets of RA45TP all day long. I think for a compact alloy frame I'll stay with standard pressure loads.

Thanks again.

Cheers
Bill
Nothing at all wrong with sticking with standard pressure loads, especially since some of the newer (and/or occasionally revised) standard pressure JHP's have been tweaked to also work well with shorter barrels that have become so popular.

My info about the use of +P & +P+ dates back to the days when S&W was selling a lot of the aluminum-framed pistols to LE users, and questions were always being asked about ammo use in the classes.

I liked the way one of the armorer instructors worded it one time. He said just use whatever ammunition you're being issued, presuming it's being made by one of the major American ammo companies who do a lot of sales with LE. If that meant the use of higher pressure duty ammo, then he said to consider adjusting the armorer inspection frequency and service, monitoring for increased wear and tear.

Also remember that the early 115gr +P+, made by both Winchester and Federal, was basically pioneered and developed around the use of a major state police agency's use of S&W aluminum-framed guns. One of our members could relate (and has related) a lot of his experiences when he was involved with their FTU from those days.

Recoil springs are relatively cheap, too, so it's easy to shorten the replacement intervals when it comes to tracking round count/service usage.

Then, there's remembering a little judicious use of lube, especially for the alloy guns. You old enough to remember the 60's ads for Brylcreem, and the jingle lyrics, A Little Dab'll Do Ya?

As far as the use of +P in my .45's, I lost the interest to use it in my own .45's many years ago. I still have some, but seldom have a desire to use it.

Something I remember from the original days of the CS45 ...

I was discussing some things with a tech at the factory (I'd called as an armorer with a couple questions), and when we discussed ammo he asked me what I'd been using in mine. I told him I was primarily using standard pressure 230gr loads, but had also been using some +P loads. He asked me how the CS45 did with the +P, and went on to explain that when they were doing the R&D for the CS45, their marketing surveys indicated the primary commercial and LE sales were for standard pressure 230gr, so that's the ammo they used for their R&D. He chuckled and said they'd not gotten to trying any +P loads in their R&D because they expected the typical customer would be using standard pressure 230gr.

This was a little different than the info I'd heard in my first metal pistol armorer class, as an instructor in that class said that the R&D which was being done for their first planned aluminum-framed compact .45 (which became the M457) had involved not only something like 25K rounds fired, but had involved the use of a good number of proof loads, since the engineers were curious just how well their first alloy frame would do compared to their stainless steel 4516.

Apparently it met their expectations (and even exceeded them), as they reportedly had plans to later introduce an alloy-framed 10mm compact at some point (would it have been called the M1013?), if the market hadn't begun to substantially slow for the 10mm as a duty/defensive weapon. (Were you the one who called that factory number and name I provided a few years ago, to ask some questions about the 10mm projects? I forget.)
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Old 10-03-2018, 09:03 PM
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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Were you the one who called that factory number and name I provided a few years ago, to ask some questions about the 10mm projects? I forget.)
Yeah my memory gets a bit crusty at times too Around Spring of '16 perhaps... I was chasing down data on extractor reach & tension on 10xx guns for a '1014' project along with hunting up dimension data on for bar & flag gauges for 9,10 & 45. I recall PM'ing back and forth with you about some of this stuff and was able to speak with some actual knowledgeable folks at S&W several times.

Cheers
Bill
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Old 10-03-2018, 10:02 PM
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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Yeah my memory gets a bit crusty at times too Around Spring of '16 perhaps... I was chasing down data on extractor reach & tension on 10xx guns for a '1014' project along with hunting up dimension data on for bar & flag gauges for 9,10 & 45. I recall PM'ing back and forth with you about some of this stuff and was able to speak with some actual knowledgeable folks at S&W several times.

Cheers
Bill
Last I heard, the guy who was in on the ground floor during the 10mm FBI project is probably going to retire sometime next year. A lot of institutional knowledge will be walking out the door when he leaves. He'll be my last of the old time contacts for 3rd gens, sadly. Another guy who was my go-to contact for the original AIP (Auto Improvement Program, transitioning from 2nd to 3rd gens), and the early 645/4506 info, has already retired.

Considering these guys are probably younger than a few of the other contacts with whom I've spoken over the years, always asking questions as an armorer about the TDA guns, it's probably not going to be much longer before most (all?) of the other original 3rd gen folks have left. Maybe some people will be left at the Houlton plant, who worked on the last production runs of the 3rd gens and are presently handling some 3rd gen warranty or repair work that may trickle in.

The end of an era.
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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I want to "like" this post above ^ but I can't bring myself to use that word.
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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Default Now I'm just being silly

I flame anodized a couple titanium hex capscrews for the grips, Bling Bling!



Dang! now need to score a bunch of magazines

Cheers
Bill
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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I flame anodized a couple titanium hex capscrews for the grips, Bling Bling!



Dang! now need to score a bunch of magazines

Cheers
Bill
Well, now you're just showing off.

Every now and then it seems Midway puts magazines on sale for the 3913/CS9 guns. The last time I ordered some they were about $10/ea less expensive than their regular (current) price.
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Old 10-07-2018, 04:57 PM
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I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then... I really wasn't gonna buy a CS9.  And then...  
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A question or two for fellows who carry their CS9 on occasion or often....

What's your preference in carry and training ammo?

I went with standard pressure Speer lawman 147 TMJ for the training role and the matching loading with Speer's 147 Gold Dot projectile for carry. This stuff was delivered today ahead of my Saturday trip to the range.

I was also looking at Winchester's RA9B and RA9BA but seemed out of stock about everywhere although I didn't search too hard.

I pretty much stick with either Speer or Winchester LE ammo for guns I carry frequently except for 10mm where I go with Underwood's 165gr loadings.

How's this little shooter hold up to +p loadings?

How about Federal's HST loadings?

I'm not remotely considering any +p+ loads for this little guy. If I need more horsepower for some reason I'll just go up a millimeter or so.

Cheers
Bill
Congrats on your new CS9 Bill! As has been stated, they are great little guns and make a nice Summertime carry piece.

As far as ammo goes, I prefer to use Federal HST 124g +P, though any of the HST offerings would be a good choice out of the 3" barrel. Recoil is very manageable with the +P load and I like the lighter overall weight when loaded with 124g (as this will often be holstered in the waistband of my gym shorts or a pocket).

From the tests I've seen online, I would not recommend shooting the Speer GDHP 147g out of anything shorter than a 4" barrel. They failed to reliably expand out of a 3.5" barrel in Lucky Gunner's tests (https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...llistic-tests/), as well as in ShootingTheBull's denim gel tests on youtube out of a 3" barrel.

The more reliable 147g rounds from a 3" barrel in online testing have been the Federal HST and the Winchester loads. Since the HST is usually easier and cheaper to find, I tend to go with them out of my compact and sub-compact 9mm's.
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