Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-08-2018, 07:53 PM
CEra CEra is offline
Member
model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Maryland
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Default model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge

Hello. This is my first post aside from an introduction. I'm eager to see any help you can offer.


Problem summary: 1980's model 41 frequently has light primer strikes and failures to fire (FTF). Often doesn't fully chamber cartridge. Suspect they're related.


Background: I have a S & W model 41 built in 1982 that I bought used in great condition in the mid 80's. I don't know how many rounds were fired by the prior owner nor what type of ammo they used. And I don't recall how many rounds I had fired when I stored it in the late 80's. I do recall that I almost exclusively used CCI #32 standard velocity (SV). I was careless about cleaning it and stored it dirty. However it was super precise and accurate based on my national match scores. And it was extremely reliable. If there were any failures at all, there weren't enough to have left an impression.


Problem detail: This summer (2018) I cleaned it and shot some of the 80's CCI rounds I still had. Several times there was a light primer strike and FTF. If I reseated the round it would fire. There was a heavy strike on these "retries" and on the rounds that fired normally. It still seems precise but I haven't put it on a rest yet.


Troubleshooting:

* Attributed the FTF to old ammo gone bad. I bought new CCI SV #35 labeled 1070 fps just as the old #32 was labeled. Tried a different lot of new CCI SV #35. Tried two lots of Aguila Super Extra SV. Same problem with all the new ammo as with the old. I noticed that slide appears to not have closed completely when FTF. Pulling back slide just before round is extracted and then releasing slide results in closed slide and fired round.

* Replaced the recoil spring and guide rod. That was useful because brass now falls a couple of feet from me instead of the other side of the range. :-)

* Removed bolt assembly. Cleaned firing pin and inside of bolt. Did not remove extractor.

* Cleaned pistol as thoroughly as I know how multiple times during experiments. Inspected bore. Flashlight at muzzle shows sparkling bore except for a thin, dark ring about a casing's length in from the breech. Rifling appears to start at the ring. Toothpick rubbed down bore across ring does not catch on anything. Soaking bore in solvent and vigorous scrubbing does not remove ring. Any idea what the ring is?

* Cleaned bore. Held barrel vertically and dropped cartridges into chamber. Some fall until stopped by rim with a positive click. That seems correct behavior. Do you agree? Others stop anywhere from slightly short of the rim to half the length of the casing. Cleaned bore. Performed test for one box (50 rounds of new CCI SV). About six failed the "drop test." Opened second box of same lot. Almost all failed the drop test. Cleaned bore. Repeated with second box. Only a few failed the drop test. I've tried this test with both lots of new CCI SV, both lots of the Aguila SV, and 10 rounds of "Eley Prime Golden Eagle Target" that I was given.

* Have done drop test several times with the same ten rounds of Eley. I guess that any bullet coating that may be sticking to the bore would have worn off these 10 rounds by now. Do you agree?

* During a recent match, passed brush through bore prior to each 5 shot string. Got at least one FTF for most of the six strings.

* I have resisted using high velocity ammo based on advice that seems expert to me. Any contrary advice with rationale?


Measurements: I don't have confidence in the caliper I was using so I'll defer providing measurements. Is measuring the inside diameter of the chamber and outside diameter of some cartridges useful?


Observations:

* FTF occurs with both magazines I have (10 rounds)

* a clean bore briefly reduces the partial chambering behavior but does not eliminate it.

* the same CCI and Aguila ammo works fine with another pistol.


Hypotheses:

* rounds sometimes do not fully chamber --> some of the firing pin's energy is absorbed to chamber round --> light primer strike --> FTF.

* something happened to the chamber while sitting for 30+ years.

* yours?


Further tests:

* Please help!

---

Secondary problem infrequently observed during troubleshooting: When using either lot of Aguila SV but not CCI, the first round of five fires. The second round occasionally is not removed from magazine. I don't recall if the fired casing ejects. Racking the slide chambers the second round and behavior returns to "normal" (occasional FTF). I don't recall if it happened with only one of the two magazines. I plan to document with which magazine(s) this occurs. Any ideas on this one?

---

I plan to be at a range tomorrow (Tue) to try tests if you're kind enough to suggest some.


Thanks.

P.S. JH1951, you wrote "ask away with as much detail as you can give." How did I do with the detail? :-)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-09-2018, 11:06 PM
Barrie Barrie is offline
Member
model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,007
Likes: 436
Liked 577 Times in 429 Posts
Default

Have you run a good brass bore brush down thru the barrel . Only from the breech forward, never backwards. Stick with the CCI-SV ammo only as that is generally the correct ammo for it. Buy and try a few new magazines as well. What weight of new spring did you put in the gun? Also Welcome to the Forum.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-09-2018, 11:46 PM
adwjc adwjc is offline
Member
model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 782
Likes: 5,868
Liked 633 Times in 312 Posts
Default

Your very rational and thorough approach doesn't leave many options other than trying different ammo and magazines.

It doesn't sound like your magazines are feeding properly, can you borrow some from anyone? Have you cleaned your mags - and checked the springs? Lips not misshapen?

I find a significant wax buildup in my mags, I suspect it can cause a feeding problem, so I always clean them (weekly).

My own experience with the Aguila ammo is a low but consistent failure rate, I only use them for practice. The CCI SV is trouble free.
__________________
Tony
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-09-2018, 11:55 PM
JM4151 JM4151 is offline
Member
model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Delaware County, Pa
Posts: 330
Likes: 51
Liked 141 Times in 83 Posts
Default

If all else fails you might consider returning it to the S & W service department, to see what they can do.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-12-2018, 06:27 PM
CEra CEra is offline
Member
model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Maryland
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie View Post
Have you run a good brass bore brush down thru the barrel . Only from the breech forward, never backwards. Stick with the CCI-SV ammo only as that is generally the correct ammo for it. Buy and try a few new magazines as well. What weight of new spring did you put in the gun? Also Welcome to the Forum.
I have vigorously scrubbed the bore. The brush might be bronze, instead of brass. I inserted from the breech and drew it back at it left the muzzle, contrary to your suggestion. Is there some harm going both ways? I did try just now and the bristles won't reverse while in the bore.

CCI SV is my preference. But I thought trying other ammo might help locate the problems.

I recently thought about getting a couple more magazines. Any suggestions as to which and where?

I used factory recoil spring, 7.5 lbs.

Thanks for your ideas and welcome.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-12-2018, 06:38 PM
CEra CEra is offline
Member
model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Maryland
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by adwjc View Post
Your very rational and thorough approach doesn't leave many options other than trying different ammo and magazines.

It doesn't sound like your magazines are feeding properly, can you borrow some from anyone? Have you cleaned your mags - and checked the springs? Lips not misshapen?

I find a significant wax buildup in my mags, I suspect it can cause a feeding problem, so I always clean them (weekly).

My own experience with the Aguila ammo is a low but consistent failure rate, I only use them for practice. The CCI SV is trouble free.
Thanks for your comment on my approach. I've discovered something new that I'll post in a moment.

I haven't cleaned the magazines. I will try that along with trying someone else's and buying new ones.

I've only fired a few hundred rounds of Aguila but it has always gone bang and is more accurate than I am. I plan to compare CCI SV and Aguila SV in a rest.

Maybe the clean/borrow/buy magazine ideas will solve the oddity of the second round in a magazine with Aguila not being stripped off.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-12-2018, 06:41 PM
CEra CEra is offline
Member
model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Maryland
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JM4151 View Post
If all else fails you might consider returning it to the S & W service department, to see what they can do.
I have a label from S & W to send it to their Performance Center. I wanted to do due diligence before giving up. :-)
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-12-2018, 06:52 PM
daddio202's Avatar
daddio202 daddio202 is offline
Member
model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Bradenton, florida
Posts: 853
Likes: 1,392
Liked 1,079 Times in 407 Posts
Default

I have that same exact scenario going on with a High Standard "The Victor" I honestly believe it is a problem with the magazine. High Standards are much more notorious for having to adjust the magazine lips perfectly for them to run. Funny though that your problem sounds so much alike. Sometimes if it gets fed correctly I have to push the slide just a millimeter forward to get ignition but sometimes it will feed the round upwards getting jammed between slide-breech and ceiling of gun (actually the top that rear sight sets on). Try a different magazine before sending it in is what I am thinking. You can always send it in if all else fails. Good luck
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-12-2018, 07:36 PM
CEra CEra is offline
Member
model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Maryland
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Arrow new observations

After the original post I took it to the range. It misbehaved: both the frequent FTF and the occasional (once, this time) Aguila second round doesn't get stripped.

Some friends looked at it. I learned two things:

- rounds do not always fully fall into their (not M41) pistols' chambers and they have no reliability problems. Maybe my whole line of thinking about the chamber having a problem is wrong.

- I field stripped it for them and they noticed a drag in the slide just prior to fully closing.

At home I looked at it in more detail. At first I thought the horizontal bar of the safety was binding it so I removed it. Still the drag. I also removed the slide stop to clean that area since it was by then more than field stripped.

I've attached some photos to refer to in my explanation. I could only upload five so I'll upload the last two in the next message. I hope that's within the rules.

Photo 1: The hammer is cocked, protruding a bit above the frame.

Photo 2: I start with the slide all the way back, without the recoil spring.

Photo 3: Holding the pistol level, I slowly move the slide forward. It has just passed the hammer. There was a fair amount of drag as the bolt passed over the hammer and then virtually none at this point.

Photo 4: The slide glides easily until this point at which there's a slight amount of drag.

Photo 5: The drag increases at this point.

Photo 6 (first of next message): The slide softly clicks as it slightly shifts position. Note: In this position, I can raise the front of the barrel 35-40 degrees and the slide stays put whereas prior to this point, the same amount of inclination will send the slide all the way back.

Photo 7 (second of next message): The slide glides easily to its full forward position.

*** The slide position of Photo 6 is exactly (to my calibrated eyeball ) the same as when it doesn't fully close after firing resulting in the FTF. Some questions:

- Should the hammer be protruding (#1)?

- Is the drag from #4 - #6 expected?

- Is the shift and click of #6 expected?

- Do you think this is all a coincidence? If not, any ideas on next steps?

Thanks.

model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge-1hammer-protrude-jpg

model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge-2slide-back-jpg

model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge-3bolt-passed-hammer-jpg

model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge-4begin-resist-jpg

model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge-5more-resist-jpg
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-12-2018, 07:38 PM
CEra CEra is offline
Member
model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Maryland
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Default continued: photos 6 & 7

model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge-6shift-click-jpg

model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge-7slide-forward-jpg
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-12-2018, 08:44 PM
leinster lad leinster lad is offline
Member
model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 138
Likes: 76
Liked 44 Times in 31 Posts
Default

sounds like the extractor not lining up with the cut-out in the barrel.
Mine did this once.
Knocked the rough edge off the extractor and all good.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-12-2018, 09:02 PM
leinster lad leinster lad is offline
Member
model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 138
Likes: 76
Liked 44 Times in 31 Posts
Default

Photo 1: The hammer is cocked, protruding a bit above the frame.

Yes, Normal

Photo 3: Holding the pistol level, I slowly move the slide forward. It has just passed the hammer. There was a fair amount of drag as the bolt passed over the hammer and then virtually none at this point.

Yes, Normal

Photo 4: The slide glides easily until this point at which there's a slight amount of drag.
Photo 5: The drag increases at this point.
Photo 6 (first of next message): The slide softly clicks as it slightly shifts position. Note: In this position, I can raise the front of the barrel 35-40 degrees and the slide stays put whereas prior to this point, the same amount of inclination will send the slide all the way back.

Could be the trigger bar coming up into the cutout on the slide.

Photo 7 (second of next message): The slide glides easily to its full forward position.

The slide never goes this far forward with the barrel installed



The photos show that the barrel is not installed ?

Were your given analysis with the barrel on or off ?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-12-2018, 11:31 PM
Barrie Barrie is offline
Member
model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,007
Likes: 436
Liked 577 Times in 429 Posts
Default

Mine were with the barrel installed on the gun. Most good gunshops who sell parts will or should have the newer magazines you may need. I rotate thru 12 myself. Less problems for me this way.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
SD40VE fully supported chamber??? Carl Bill Smith & Wesson SD & Sigma Pistols 25 02-14-2018 07:25 PM
New Model 36 Cartridge Was Stuck In Chamber hgekap S&W-Smithing 14 12-13-2015 02:19 PM
Does the M&P 40 have a fully supported chamber? RichardF Smith & Wesson Semi-Auto Pistols 4 12-16-2012 11:53 AM
Model 41 failure to fire SteveG48 S&W-Smithing 10 03-11-2012 02:43 PM
Model 41 Failure To Fire Roy W. Smith & Wesson Semi-Auto Pistols 4 05-08-2009 12:18 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:26 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.42 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2018
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)