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Old 10-08-2018, 07:53 PM
CEra CEra is offline
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model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
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Default model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge

Hello. This is my first post aside from an introduction. I'm eager to see any help you can offer.


Problem summary: 1980's model 41 frequently has light primer strikes and failures to fire (FTF). Often doesn't fully chamber cartridge. Suspect they're related.


Background: I have a S & W model 41 built in 1982 that I bought used in great condition in the mid 80's. I don't know how many rounds were fired by the prior owner nor what type of ammo they used. And I don't recall how many rounds I had fired when I stored it in the late 80's. I do recall that I almost exclusively used CCI #32 standard velocity (SV). I was careless about cleaning it and stored it dirty. However it was super precise and accurate based on my national match scores. And it was extremely reliable. If there were any failures at all, there weren't enough to have left an impression.


Problem detail: This summer (2018) I cleaned it and shot some of the 80's CCI rounds I still had. Several times there was a light primer strike and FTF. If I reseated the round it would fire. There was a heavy strike on these "retries" and on the rounds that fired normally. It still seems precise but I haven't put it on a rest yet.


Troubleshooting:

* Attributed the FTF to old ammo gone bad. I bought new CCI SV #35 labeled 1070 fps just as the old #32 was labeled. Tried a different lot of new CCI SV #35. Tried two lots of Aguila Super Extra SV. Same problem with all the new ammo as with the old. I noticed that slide appears to not have closed completely when FTF. Pulling back slide just before round is extracted and then releasing slide results in closed slide and fired round.

* Replaced the recoil spring and guide rod. That was useful because brass now falls a couple of feet from me instead of the other side of the range. :-)

* Removed bolt assembly. Cleaned firing pin and inside of bolt. Did not remove extractor.

* Cleaned pistol as thoroughly as I know how multiple times during experiments. Inspected bore. Flashlight at muzzle shows sparkling bore except for a thin, dark ring about a casing's length in from the breech. Rifling appears to start at the ring. Toothpick rubbed down bore across ring does not catch on anything. Soaking bore in solvent and vigorous scrubbing does not remove ring. Any idea what the ring is?

* Cleaned bore. Held barrel vertically and dropped cartridges into chamber. Some fall until stopped by rim with a positive click. That seems correct behavior. Do you agree? Others stop anywhere from slightly short of the rim to half the length of the casing. Cleaned bore. Performed test for one box (50 rounds of new CCI SV). About six failed the "drop test." Opened second box of same lot. Almost all failed the drop test. Cleaned bore. Repeated with second box. Only a few failed the drop test. I've tried this test with both lots of new CCI SV, both lots of the Aguila SV, and 10 rounds of "Eley Prime Golden Eagle Target" that I was given.

* Have done drop test several times with the same ten rounds of Eley. I guess that any bullet coating that may be sticking to the bore would have worn off these 10 rounds by now. Do you agree?

* During a recent match, passed brush through bore prior to each 5 shot string. Got at least one FTF for most of the six strings.

* I have resisted using high velocity ammo based on advice that seems expert to me. Any contrary advice with rationale?


Measurements: I don't have confidence in the caliper I was using so I'll defer providing measurements. Is measuring the inside diameter of the chamber and outside diameter of some cartridges useful?


Observations:

* FTF occurs with both magazines I have (10 rounds)

* a clean bore briefly reduces the partial chambering behavior but does not eliminate it.

* the same CCI and Aguila ammo works fine with another pistol.


Hypotheses:

* rounds sometimes do not fully chamber --> some of the firing pin's energy is absorbed to chamber round --> light primer strike --> FTF.

* something happened to the chamber while sitting for 30+ years.

* yours?


Further tests:

* Please help!

---

Secondary problem infrequently observed during troubleshooting: When using either lot of Aguila SV but not CCI, the first round of five fires. The second round occasionally is not removed from magazine. I don't recall if the fired casing ejects. Racking the slide chambers the second round and behavior returns to "normal" (occasional FTF). I don't recall if it happened with only one of the two magazines. I plan to document with which magazine(s) this occurs. Any ideas on this one?

---

I plan to be at a range tomorrow (Tue) to try tests if you're kind enough to suggest some.


Thanks.

P.S. JH1951, you wrote "ask away with as much detail as you can give." How did I do with the detail? :-)
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Old 10-09-2018, 11:06 PM
Barrie Barrie is offline
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model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
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Have you run a good brass bore brush down thru the barrel . Only from the breech forward, never backwards. Stick with the CCI-SV ammo only as that is generally the correct ammo for it. Buy and try a few new magazines as well. What weight of new spring did you put in the gun? Also Welcome to the Forum.
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Old 10-09-2018, 11:46 PM
adwjc adwjc is offline
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Your very rational and thorough approach doesn't leave many options other than trying different ammo and magazines.

It doesn't sound like your magazines are feeding properly, can you borrow some from anyone? Have you cleaned your mags - and checked the springs? Lips not misshapen?

I find a significant wax buildup in my mags, I suspect it can cause a feeding problem, so I always clean them (weekly).

My own experience with the Aguila ammo is a low but consistent failure rate, I only use them for practice. The CCI SV is trouble free.
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Old 10-09-2018, 11:55 PM
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model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
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If all else fails you might consider returning it to the S & W service department, to see what they can do.
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:27 PM
CEra CEra is offline
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model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie View Post
Have you run a good brass bore brush down thru the barrel . Only from the breech forward, never backwards. Stick with the CCI-SV ammo only as that is generally the correct ammo for it. Buy and try a few new magazines as well. What weight of new spring did you put in the gun? Also Welcome to the Forum.
I have vigorously scrubbed the bore. The brush might be bronze, instead of brass. I inserted from the breech and drew it back at it left the muzzle, contrary to your suggestion. Is there some harm going both ways? I did try just now and the bristles won't reverse while in the bore.

CCI SV is my preference. But I thought trying other ammo might help locate the problems.

I recently thought about getting a couple more magazines. Any suggestions as to which and where?

I used factory recoil spring, 7.5 lbs.

Thanks for your ideas and welcome.
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:38 PM
CEra CEra is offline
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model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adwjc View Post
Your very rational and thorough approach doesn't leave many options other than trying different ammo and magazines.

It doesn't sound like your magazines are feeding properly, can you borrow some from anyone? Have you cleaned your mags - and checked the springs? Lips not misshapen?

I find a significant wax buildup in my mags, I suspect it can cause a feeding problem, so I always clean them (weekly).

My own experience with the Aguila ammo is a low but consistent failure rate, I only use them for practice. The CCI SV is trouble free.
Thanks for your comment on my approach. I've discovered something new that I'll post in a moment.

I haven't cleaned the magazines. I will try that along with trying someone else's and buying new ones.

I've only fired a few hundred rounds of Aguila but it has always gone bang and is more accurate than I am. I plan to compare CCI SV and Aguila SV in a rest.

Maybe the clean/borrow/buy magazine ideas will solve the oddity of the second round in a magazine with Aguila not being stripped off.
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:41 PM
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model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
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Originally Posted by JM4151 View Post
If all else fails you might consider returning it to the S & W service department, to see what they can do.
I have a label from S & W to send it to their Performance Center. I wanted to do due diligence before giving up. :-)
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:52 PM
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model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
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I have that same exact scenario going on with a High Standard "The Victor" I honestly believe it is a problem with the magazine. High Standards are much more notorious for having to adjust the magazine lips perfectly for them to run. Funny though that your problem sounds so much alike. Sometimes if it gets fed correctly I have to push the slide just a millimeter forward to get ignition but sometimes it will feed the round upwards getting jammed between slide-breech and ceiling of gun (actually the top that rear sight sets on). Try a different magazine before sending it in is what I am thinking. You can always send it in if all else fails. Good luck
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:36 PM
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Arrow new observations

After the original post I took it to the range. It misbehaved: both the frequent FTF and the occasional (once, this time) Aguila second round doesn't get stripped.

Some friends looked at it. I learned two things:

- rounds do not always fully fall into their (not M41) pistols' chambers and they have no reliability problems. Maybe my whole line of thinking about the chamber having a problem is wrong.

- I field stripped it for them and they noticed a drag in the slide just prior to fully closing.

At home I looked at it in more detail. At first I thought the horizontal bar of the safety was binding it so I removed it. Still the drag. I also removed the slide stop to clean that area since it was by then more than field stripped.

I've attached some photos to refer to in my explanation. I could only upload five so I'll upload the last two in the next message. I hope that's within the rules.

Photo 1: The hammer is cocked, protruding a bit above the frame.

Photo 2: I start with the slide all the way back, without the recoil spring.

Photo 3: Holding the pistol level, I slowly move the slide forward. It has just passed the hammer. There was a fair amount of drag as the bolt passed over the hammer and then virtually none at this point.

Photo 4: The slide glides easily until this point at which there's a slight amount of drag.

Photo 5: The drag increases at this point.

Photo 6 (first of next message): The slide softly clicks as it slightly shifts position. Note: In this position, I can raise the front of the barrel 35-40 degrees and the slide stays put whereas prior to this point, the same amount of inclination will send the slide all the way back.

Photo 7 (second of next message): The slide glides easily to its full forward position.

*** The slide position of Photo 6 is exactly (to my calibrated eyeball ) the same as when it doesn't fully close after firing resulting in the FTF. Some questions:

- Should the hammer be protruding (#1)?

- Is the drag from #4 - #6 expected?

- Is the shift and click of #6 expected?

- Do you think this is all a coincidence? If not, any ideas on next steps?

Thanks.

1hammer-protrude.jpg

2slide-back.jpg

3bolt-passed-hammer.jpg

4begin-resist.jpg

5more-resist.jpg
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:38 PM
CEra CEra is offline
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model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
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Default continued: photos 6 & 7

6shift-click.jpg

7slide-forward.jpg
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:44 PM
leinster lad leinster lad is offline
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model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
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sounds like the extractor not lining up with the cut-out in the barrel.
Mine did this once.
Knocked the rough edge off the extractor and all good.
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Old 10-12-2018, 09:02 PM
leinster lad leinster lad is offline
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model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
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Photo 1: The hammer is cocked, protruding a bit above the frame.

Yes, Normal

Photo 3: Holding the pistol level, I slowly move the slide forward. It has just passed the hammer. There was a fair amount of drag as the bolt passed over the hammer and then virtually none at this point.

Yes, Normal

Photo 4: The slide glides easily until this point at which there's a slight amount of drag.
Photo 5: The drag increases at this point.
Photo 6 (first of next message): The slide softly clicks as it slightly shifts position. Note: In this position, I can raise the front of the barrel 35-40 degrees and the slide stays put whereas prior to this point, the same amount of inclination will send the slide all the way back.

Could be the trigger bar coming up into the cutout on the slide.

Photo 7 (second of next message): The slide glides easily to its full forward position.

The slide never goes this far forward with the barrel installed



The photos show that the barrel is not installed ?

Were your given analysis with the barrel on or off ?
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:31 PM
Barrie Barrie is offline
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model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
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Mine were with the barrel installed on the gun. Most good gunshops who sell parts will or should have the newer magazines you may need. I rotate thru 12 myself. Less problems for me this way.
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Old 10-17-2018, 02:49 AM
CEra CEra is offline
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model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
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Default slide drag

Quote:
Originally Posted by leinster lad View Post
Photo 4: The slide glides easily until this point at which there's a slight amount of drag.
Photo 5: The drag increases at this point.
Photo 6 (first of next message): The slide softly clicks as it slightly shifts position. Note: In this position, I can raise the front of the barrel 35-40 degrees and the slide stays put whereas prior to this point, the same amount of inclination will send the slide all the way back.

Could be the trigger bar coming up into the cutout on the slide.

Photo 7 (second of next message): The slide glides easily to its full forward position.

The slide never goes this far forward with the barrel installed



The photos show that the barrel is not installed ?

Were your given analysis with the barrel on or off ?
I was able to check this yesterday.

Photos 4-5: The tab on the trigger bar is rubbing against the slide just in front of the cutout on the slide. Is this normal? I meant to check this on someone else's 41. I'll make a note to do that next week.

Photo 6: That tab is coming up into the cutout on the slide as you said.

Correct: the barrel was not installed. Good eye!

P.S. I need to learn how to do the inline comments like you did.
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Old 10-17-2018, 02:56 AM
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model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
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Default extractor seems to line up

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Originally Posted by leinster lad View Post
sounds like the extractor not lining up with the cut-out in the barrel.
Mine did this once.
Knocked the rough edge off the extractor and all good.
Mine appears to behave the same as someone else's that works fine. As the slide moves forward, it overcomes the resistance of the extractor spring and the extractor moves slightly to fit in the barrel cut-out.

Is there something else I should try to test your idea?
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Old 10-17-2018, 03:33 AM
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Default Tue: 4 FTF out of 100

Yesterday I borrowed a 5.5" barrel. It fitted just fine. I fired 10 rounds without a problem. I put mine (7") back on and fired 90 more rounds. There were four FTF's. Those four rounds fired when tried again. I'm using CCI-SV again.

I had cleaned my two magazines and compared them to other known good magazines. They look OK.

The next time I can use the other barrel should be next week. I'll fire 100, 200 or more? rounds through it to see if the FTF occurs with it. That ought to determine if my barrel is the problem. Does that make sense?

I would appreciate any more suggestions.
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Old 10-17-2018, 07:56 AM
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model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
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Sorry if this has already been discussed.....match chamber reamers are available from Brownells and other vendors. You can also rent them from online suppliers for a fee. I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to confirm the integrity of the chamber mouth and the chamber itself with a match reamer?

CLYMER .22 LR "BENTZ" SEMI-AUTO MATCH REAMER | Brownells

Also, unless I missed it, I haven't read any comments about lubricants, or what, if any, lubricant you are using. Along with the extensive cleaning you have done, proper lubrication would be a final critical step in preparing the gun for use.
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Old 10-17-2018, 08:14 AM
leinster lad leinster lad is offline
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model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge model 41 - frequent failure to fire - often doesn't fully chamber cartridge  
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You mention FTF.

Is that "Fail To Feed"; where the slide moving forward does not strip a round out of the mag and chamber it correctly/fully ?

or

"Failure To Fire"; where the round has been chambered fully/correctly, the trigger releases the hammer, but the round fails to be ignited ?

This is important, because if the slide has not moved into full battery, the trigger bar will not be able to pull the sear out to release the hammer.

Result is that you think you have pulled the trigger, but there is no bang. Because the hammer did not release.

Easy to tell as it is a LOT harder to rack the slide if the hammer is "down" ( released position)

If the hammer is "cocked" the slide will rack quite easily.

You really need to be sure that the slide is going fully forward so that the trigger bar is engaged with the sear.


Photos 4-5: The tab on the trigger bar is rubbing against the slide just in front of the cutout on the slide. Is this normal?

Yes

What I was getting at is to check / feel that the "rubbing" is smooth and not the cause of any tight spot.


The tab that you are describing is used to push the trigger bar down and disconnect it from the tab on the sear when the slide is no in full battery ( slide fully forward onto the barrel.
This allows the sear to engage with the hammer after each round is fired
This is a safety device, and without it, the pistol is likely to go "full auto" as the sear would not be able to catch the hammer.

( pull the grips off and have a look at how the mechanism works thru all of the actions.
Mag in and out. Look at what items move when the mag is fully inserted.

Slide back and forth. Look at how that affects the trigger bar.

Trigger pulled etc. Look at how and what the trigger bar does.

Now drop out the mag and see what happened to the trigger bar.

See how it is now pushed down by the mag disconnect so that it can no longer engage with the tab on the sear.

Have a look at how the extractor claw locates into the groove in the barrel. Does it catch on entry ? or does it just slip in nicely ?
MAKE SURE IT IS NOT LOADED THOUGH !!! )


Take it easy, and take it slowly.
Take careful note of what has happened.

These are simple machines and once you understand how they work, it is a piece of cake !!
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Old 10-18-2018, 12:16 AM
Barrie Barrie is offline
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I am starting to think Armourer51 may have a good point about getting a barrel reamer for this gun. Maybe a lead buildup in the barrel choking the breech down.
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Old 10-18-2018, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CEra View Post
Yesterday I borrowed a 5.5" barrel. It fitted just fine. I fired 10 rounds without a problem. I put mine (7") back on and fired 90 more rounds. There were four FTF's. Those four rounds fired when tried again. I'm using CCI-SV again.

I had cleaned my two magazines and compared them to other known good magazines. They look OK.

The next time I can use the other barrel should be next week. I'll fire 100, 200 or more? rounds through it to see if the FTF occurs with it. That ought to determine if my barrel is the problem. Does that make sense?

I would appreciate any more suggestions.
I think you're close. You changed barrels and found the problem went away. That's a significant clue. In your earlier posts you mentioned a black ring just forward of the chamber. You also said you scrubbed the bore thoroughly yet cartridges still won't drop cleanly into the chamber. Another clue. You also said you scrubbed the bore thoroughly. There have been lots of stories about old guns that fired 22 shorts and would not chamber 22LR because of a similar ring. I think you may have to take another run at cleaning. Only this time focus on the chamber. Use a 25 caliber brush on a T-handle. It will get tedious if you use a regular cleaning rod. Use plenty of solvent and twist the brush in the chamber area. It may take a long time, but I think you need to get that ring out of there. Don't go reaming the chamber yet, work on that ring.
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Old 10-18-2018, 09:28 AM
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How about putting a bore brush on an electric drill and scrub that ring clean out of there?
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Old 10-20-2018, 08:01 AM
CEra CEra is offline
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Default chamber ring, reaming, relining

Thank you for so much interest in helping me solve this problem. The posts quoted below seem to be related so I'll reply with them together.

In addition to the suggestions here, someone at the range suggested relining the barrel. Someone else said he would bring his dremel with a felt brush and polishing compound.

I've researched these suggestions. Here's my take:

- Relining seems like a last resort, similar to buying a new barrel.

- Reaming seems to not only remove lead deposits but also barrel material. Is that true? Do I want to do that to a match/target barrel?

- Depending on what polishing compound is used, I think that could also remove barrel material. Same questions as for reaming.

I think this is the first time I read here that the ring in the chamber shouldn't be there. Same for the cartridges not dropping all the way into the chamber. I think it makes sense to concentrate on this first. Would soaking the barrel in something (what?) help prior to scrubbing? Putting a bore brush on a drill sounds like an easy way. Aside from ensuring only the brush contacts the bore, it there anything else I need to be aware of to avoid damage?

Regarding the other barrel, I only fired 10 rounds through it so I can't yet conclude my barrel is the problem. I'll be at the range in a few days and plan to inspect it for a ring in the chamber, see if rounds drop into the chamber, and also fire hundreds of rounds through it. That will provide three new data points.


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Originally Posted by armorer951 View Post
Sorry if this has already been discussed.....match chamber reamers are available from Brownells and other vendors. You can also rent them from online suppliers for a fee. I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to confirm the integrity of the chamber mouth and the chamber itself with a match reamer?

CLYMER .22 LR "BENTZ" SEMI-AUTO MATCH REAMER | Brownells

Also, unless I missed it, I haven't read any comments about lubricants, or what, if any, lubricant you are using. Along with the extensive cleaning you have done, proper lubrication would be a final critical step in preparing the gun for use.
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Originally Posted by Barrie View Post
I am starting to think Armourer51 may have a good point about getting a barrel reamer for this gun. Maybe a lead buildup in the barrel choking the breech down.
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Originally Posted by Krogen View Post
I think you're close. You changed barrels and found the problem went away. That's a significant clue. In your earlier posts you mentioned a black ring just forward of the chamber. You also said you scrubbed the bore thoroughly yet cartridges still won't drop cleanly into the chamber. Another clue. You also said you scrubbed the bore thoroughly. There have been lots of stories about old guns that fired 22 shorts and would not chamber 22LR because of a similar ring. I think you may have to take another run at cleaning. Only this time focus on the chamber. Use a 25 caliber brush on a T-handle. It will get tedious if you use a regular cleaning rod. Use plenty of solvent and twist the brush in the chamber area. It may take a long time, but I think you need to get that ring out of there. Don't go reaming the chamber yet, work on that ring.
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How about putting a bore brush on an electric drill and scrub that ring clean out of there?
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  #23  
Old 10-20-2018, 08:18 AM
CEra CEra is offline
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Default FTF: light primer strike & failure to fire

Thanks for your questions and explanation. Sorry if I wasn't clear in my original problem statement. When the problem occurs, the hammer falls, the primer is typically lightly hit, and the round does not fire. When the problem does not occur, the spent casings show a hard hit. In a couple of failure cases the primer showed what seemed to be a sufficient hit.

The next time at the range, I'll collect some samples and try to take some photos if that would help clarify what's going on.

I've experienced only a couple of failures to feed. I believe I described that above. To clarify, it only has happened with Aguila SV and only with the second round in the magazine. I'm now using only CCI SV with no feed problem. Unless you think the Aguila failure to feed is related to the CCI & Aguila failure to fire problem, I'll defer troubleshooting the Aguila feed problem.


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Originally Posted by leinster lad View Post
You mention FTF.

Is that "Fail To Feed"; where the slide moving forward does not strip a round out of the mag and chamber it correctly/fully ?

or

"Failure To Fire"; where the round has been chambered fully/correctly, the trigger releases the hammer, but the round fails to be ignited ?

This is important, because if the slide has not moved into full battery, the trigger bar will not be able to pull the sear out to release the hammer.

Result is that you think you have pulled the trigger, but there is no bang. Because the hammer did not release.
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  #24  
Old 10-20-2018, 11:34 AM
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There have been a number of suggestions; some quite extreme! Don't go right to the complex answer. It's probably something quite simple. (Look up Occam's Razor.) As you reported, it worked when you put it away long ago. You also put it away dirty. What could have happened during the long (dirty) slumber? It's unlikely that you need to do anything except clean it and lube it. Clean it thoroughly. Avoid power tools! Use some elbow grease. Use a T-handle and a 25 cal bore brush. Not a stainless brush, though! Rotate that brush in the chamber area by hand with a good dose of solvent. That old gunk can be a pain to remove. Just go carefully and slowly. Soak and scrub, repeat.

Last edited by Krogen; 10-20-2018 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 10-20-2018, 11:54 AM
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IF IT WAS MINE, I WOULD HAVE PURCHASED A NEW BARREL FOR IT, AS SOON AS I SAW THAT IT FUNCTIONED FLAWLESSLY WITH THAT BORROWED BARREL......

BY NOW, I WOULD HAVE 3 OR 4 PLEASANT RANGE SESSIONS IN MY LOG BOOK.......

I DO NOT HAVE THE PATIENCE TO TINKER.....
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Old 10-20-2018, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by one eye joe View Post
IF IT WAS MINE, I WOULD HAVE PURCHASED A NEW BARREL FOR IT, AS SOON AS I SAW THAT IT FUNCTIONED FLAWLESSLY WITH THAT BORROWED BARREL......

BY NOW, I WOULD HAVE 3 OR 4 PLEASANT RANGE SESSIONS IN MY LOG BOOK.......

I DO NOT HAVE THE PATIENCE TO TINKER.....
That's to bad. Half the fun is tinkering with your pistol.
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Old 10-20-2018, 10:28 PM
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I strongly suspect the ring in the barrel is causing the problem. I do believe scrubbing the Black Ring out of the gun with a stronge solvent and a 25 cal bore brush should do the trick. Just oil the rails and safety switch area after the Black ring is removed, you should be good to go after that. 2 new mags won't hurt your pocket or the gun as well.

Last edited by Barrie; 10-25-2018 at 09:57 PM.
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Old 10-21-2018, 07:03 AM
leinster lad leinster lad is offline
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Light strikes would be indicating that the firing pin could do with removing and cleaning ( inside the breech block as well )
Might be a broken firing pin spring jamming the firing pin from moving freely.
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Old 10-21-2018, 07:28 PM
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If all else fails then I would take it to a Gunsmith who has been to the S&W Gun school. Let your fingers do the walking on this one.
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  #30  
Old 10-25-2018, 01:09 AM
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Field strip it and thoroughly clean it and lube it before doing anything else.
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Old 10-28-2018, 04:42 AM
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I was having basically the same problems as the OP. I resolved the issue by changing all the major springs in the gun, replaced the extractor, and detail cleaned the gun. No more failure to eject, fire, and feed. BTW I never had light primer strikes. If all fails, S&W repair are the best in getting your gun problems resolved. Good luck and be safe.
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  #32  
Old 10-29-2018, 03:23 PM
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A friend/customer was having the same problem using Eley/CMP ammo. We replaced the mainspring and firing pin spring and cleaned the firing pin channel. Still had light strikes. Runs 100% with CCI SV. Problem solved.
After reading about the carbon ring issues, I have been cleaning my chamber with a chamber mop soaked with carb cleaner to prevent the problem.
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  #33  
Old 04-04-2019, 12:23 AM
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Default update - awake from hibernation

Hello again.

I had put this project on the back burner over the winter. Recently I returned to it with the plan to resolve it this spring.

The problem persisted with a new barrel.

So I stripped the slide, then cleaned the slide and bolt including the firing pin channel. I reassembled the slide with new parts: firing pin, firing pin return spring, extractor, extractor plunger and plunger spring.

Now the light primer strike is virtually a no primer strike and it seems somewhat less frequent that there's a failure.

I thought maybe the mainspring had been damaged by sitting compressed for 30 years and asked S&W customer service about replacing it. They said it would be a good idea.

So, I'm considering doing that but would certainly appreciate any additional advice.

Thanks.
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  #34  
Old 04-04-2019, 02:21 PM
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If problem is the same with 2 barrels, the slide is clearly not having enough return power to strip a round, fully chamber it and close the slide.

So many things could cause that, friction in the slide, friction in the hammer reset, installed buffer, recoil spring with closed end to rear, sharp inside end on recoil spring scraping on recoil rod, etc. etc. etc.

Without having pistol in hand, I suggest assembling it without the recoil spring and with azoom caps in the magazine, cycle it slowly and feel for any resistance.
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  #35  
Old 04-04-2019, 08:59 PM
Barrie Barrie is offline
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A old trick I still do on my M41 is to put one drop of oil on the top bullet of every mag for the 1st 5-6 mags of shooting. I always carry a small bottle of oil in my side kit.
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  #36  
Old 04-07-2019, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aprilian View Post
If problem is the same with 2 barrels, the slide is clearly not having enough return power to strip a round, fully chamber it and close the slide.

So many things could cause that, friction in the slide, friction in the hammer reset, installed buffer, recoil spring with closed end to rear, sharp inside end on recoil spring scraping on recoil rod, etc. etc. etc.

Without having pistol in hand, I suggest assembling it without the recoil spring and with azoom caps in the magazine, cycle it slowly and feel for any resistance.
I reviewed this thread and see observations and comments about drag beginning at post 9. I just now tried the slide on the frame without the recoil spring, barrel or magazine. There is still drag just prior to the closed position.

There is no buffer installed. What does "recoil spring with closed end to rear" mean? Both ends of the recoil spring are crimped. I insert the domed end of the recoil spring guide into the hole in the frame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie View Post
A old trick I still do on my M41 is to put one drop of oil on the top bullet of every mag for the 1st 5-6 mags of shooting. I always carry a small bottle of oil in my side kit.
That's easy enough to try. What problem does it solve for you or is it sort of preventive maintenance?

Last edited by CEra; 04-08-2019 at 12:15 AM.
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  #37  
Old 04-08-2019, 09:55 PM
leinster lad leinster lad is offline
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Interesting.
A couple of things.....

Unless the slide is damn near fully forward (99%) the trigger bar is disconnected from the sear.
Therefore, unless the slide is damn near fully forward, the hammer will not fall.

If you are getting CONFIRMED light strikes, i.e. there is a firing pin impression on the rim of the case, then we must look for reason of low firing pin energy.

With the barrel and slide OFF the frame, insert a magazine, cock the hammer back with your thumb and pull the trigger.
Does the hammer slam forward quite energetically into the frame ?

If not, investigate.

With the slide "up-side-down" use the back of a pencil or similar and push on the firing pin.
Push it as far into the breech as it will go.
Have a look at the breech face and note how far out the firing pin protrudes
It should come out of the breech about 1/16" ( the thickness of the rim on the case)

If not, investigate

It should move very smoothly in its entire travel in the breech block.
jig it in and out a number of times and make sure it is always smooth.
Firing pin should be basically dry ( just an oily film on it )


If not, investigate


Next time you go to the range and "live fire" take it very slowly and examine the pistol each time it loads ( both manually and after a shot is fired )

Be VERY CAREFULl and pay particular attention to the position of the slide. Is it FULLY CLOSED ?

I am sure that this is a simple fix.
You just need to be patient and methodical and most of all CAREFULL !!!!
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Old 04-08-2019, 09:59 PM
aprilian aprilian is offline
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Wolff aftermarket springs only have one closed end and for those they need to be closed end to the muzzle.
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  #39  
Old 04-09-2019, 01:25 AM
CEra CEra is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aprilian View Post
Wolff aftermarket springs only have one closed end and for those they need to be closed end to the muzzle.
I see. That makes sense.

I'm using OEM parts.
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Old 04-09-2019, 02:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leinster lad View Post
Interesting.
A couple of things.....
The light primer strikes are so light they're almost scuffs ... not like light strikes I've seen before. The pistol did go "click" in these cases.

The hammer pulled back by the thumb does slam forward on trigger pull.

The firing pin pushed forward does protrude from the bolt face (just barely) the thickness of a case rim.

The firing pin is dry (not even an oil film) and travels smoothly in the channel.

The last live fire I did examine the slide prior to each shot. The slide was always closed. Pulling the trigger resulted in a "click" even for the two light/no primer strike failures (~#25 & ~#135) out of 140.

I sure wish it was a simple fix. I'm waiting for a mainspring but in another thread I've been told it's probably not the problem. I can't see how it will hurt to try it, though.

I'm always open to suggestions.
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