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Old 10-11-2018, 02:07 AM
MattyD380 MattyD380 is online now
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Which is a bummer because I was looking forward to taking it on the trails with me in a few weeks. Not so sure now.

Foolishly, I didn't take a ton of time to inspect the stoppage (was shooting with my GF and we promptly moved on to the 645), but it looked like a "nose-dive-oriented" FTFeed... the round struck really low--or even below--the ramp. It seemed almost like the round didn't make it up out of the mag fast enough to get stripped off... and then got mashed down into the bottom of the ramp. I don't think there was any un-extracted/ejected brass in the equation.

I was shooting Sig Extreme Performance 180gr, which seems fairly hot... but I'm running nearly new white-follower mags with Wolff +10% springs and a 20lb Wolff recoil spring. So I figured that would be more than enough to handle fairly hot loads. And I've run plenty of the Sig ammo through it, with no issues up until this point. Could the Wolff springs be throwing things off? Wondered if anyone has experienced any similar issues with (or without) the Wolff springs.

In any case... it's only one stoppage in many hundreds of rounds. Nevertheless, it was surprising and disappointing--the gun has been very reliable and very accurate for me. Thanks for any input.
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Old 10-11-2018, 03:33 AM
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Only thing i can think of is to switch to factory springs, I don't know the history of your gun but my 1076 has a factory recoil spring and i have never had any issues out of several hundred rounds. Two of the magazines i have are using wolff springs, The sig 180gr. FMJ ammo has been no problem in mine. SARCASM warning "I'll trade you an HK45 for that troubled 1076." I'd trust a 1076 any day over most newer guns.
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Old 10-11-2018, 04:53 AM
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Over sprung recoil outrunning the mag spring?
Mag catch play?

Last edited by yeti; 10-11-2018 at 04:57 AM.
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:49 AM
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Spring not oriented properly??
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Old 10-11-2018, 01:20 PM
MattyD380 MattyD380 is online now
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Originally Posted by bigchuck83 View Post
Only thing i can think of is to switch to factory springs, I don't know the history of your gun but my 1076 has a factory recoil spring and i have never had any issues out of several hundred rounds. Two of the magazines i have are using wolff springs, The sig 180gr. FMJ ammo has been no problem in mine. SARCASM warning "I'll trade you an HK45 for that troubled 1076." I'd trust a 1076 any day over most newer guns.
I may try that. I think the factory spring is 17lbs? I've shot most Sig 180gr through it, and had no problems... until now.
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Old 10-11-2018, 01:22 PM
MattyD380 MattyD380 is online now
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Over sprung recoil outrunning the mag spring?
That's kinda what I was thinking. But wouldn't an under-sprung pistol cycle faster under heavy recoil? Am I thinking about that the right way?
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Old 10-11-2018, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by MattyD380 View Post
That's kinda what I was thinking. But wouldn't an under-sprung pistol cycle faster under heavy recoil? Am I thinking about that the right way?
Undersprung = slower return to battery, but may see over vigorous ejection. You are looking for just right.

Why 20# recoil? Have you noticed a pronounced dip of the front sight off the target using that 20# spring when the slide RTB?
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Old 10-11-2018, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by MattyD380 View Post
wouldn't an under-sprung pistol cycle faster under heavy recoil? Am I thinking about that the right way?
Arguably might be faster on opening & ejecting but slower going forward to chamber & close breech. One of the known problems with folks sticking extra power recoil springs in their guns is the slide outrunning the magazines as the breech closes.

In addition, the extra heavy springs slamming the breech closed imposes extra impact forces on the locking lugs and the slide stop's cross pin.

I recommend installing a factory recoil spring, S&W PN: 895240000 then take it for a spin.

If I were looking to reduce slide velocity further after installing an OEM recoil spring, I would up the weight on the mainspring before considering messing with the recoil spring.

Cheers
Bill
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Old 10-11-2018, 03:28 PM
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I have both a 1076 and 1066. Since 2008 when I bought them, I've used a Wolff 19# recoil spring (according to Wolff, factory is 17#). I also use Wolff +10% magazine springs with the updated white followers. I've never had the issue you reference, or any other for that matter with these pistols. I've shot Federal 180gr FMJ factory, PPU 170gr FMJ factory, Sellier & Bellot 180gr FMJ, and 180gr FMJ reloads.

I will note that shortly after I got the two 10mm pistols, I installed a Wolff 20# recoil spring in one of them. I did not like the way it felt when I pulled it back. It seemed to me that the length and strength of the spring was not allowing the slide to go all the way back. In any event, I removed it and settled in on the 19# spring. I never fired either pistol with the 20# spring in it. I know it seems a bit odd that one (1) pound would make the difference, but IIRC when I placed the 19# along side the 20# there was a significant difference in gage of wire and length of the springs.

HTH.

DD
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Old 10-11-2018, 10:23 PM
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No disrespect to the OP...but, couldn't this simply be a case of limp-wristing it just a smidge in the middle of all the shooting? Seems unlikely to me that if it was a spring issue, it would only happen one, single time.

Sam
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Old 10-12-2018, 12:16 AM
MattyD380 MattyD380 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMCM View Post
Arguably might be faster on opening & ejecting but slower going forward to chamber & close breech. One of the known problems with folks sticking extra power recoil springs in their guns is the slide outrunning the magazines as the breech closes.

In addition, the extra heavy springs slamming the breech closed imposes extra impact forces on the locking lugs and the slide stop's cross pin.

I recommend installing a factory recoil spring, S&W PN: 895240000 then take it for a spin.

If I were looking to reduce slide velocity further after installing an OEM recoil spring, I would up the weight on the mainspring before considering messing with the recoil spring.

Cheers
Bill
Thanks, this is great insight. And it makes a lot of sense. I will definitely try the factory spring. I had the stock spring in the gun originally, and had no problems in a 100 or so rounds. But when I noticed the brass hitting the back wall of the indoor range, I figured it might be time for a stouter spring. Not that I really care where the brass goes, but, it seemed like the ballistic brass may have been an indication that it needed something to temper the recoil.

Using the 20lb spring, it cycled fine with everything I put through it... until last time. But the notion that a stouter spring slams the breach closed faster and harder makes sense. And based on the geometry of the stoppage, I'd say that's the most likely reason.
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Old 10-12-2018, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Denver Dick View Post
I have both a 1076 and 1066. Since 2008 when I bought them, I've used a Wolff 19# recoil spring (according to Wolff, factory is 17#). I also use Wolff +10% magazine springs with the updated white followers. I've never had the issue you reference, or any other for that matter with these pistols. I've shot Federal 180gr FMJ factory, PPU 170gr FMJ factory, Sellier & Bellot 180gr FMJ, and 180gr FMJ reloads.

I will note that shortly after I got the two 10mm pistols, I installed a Wolff 20# recoil spring in one of them. I did not like the way it felt when I pulled it back. It seemed to me that the length and strength of the spring was not allowing the slide to go all the way back. In any event, I removed it and settled in on the 19# spring. I never fired either pistol with the 20# spring in it. I know it seems a bit odd that one (1) pound would make the difference, but IIRC when I placed the 19# along side the 20# there was a significant difference in gage of wire and length of the springs.

HTH.

DD
Interesting. I'll order some new springs and compare the wire on them. Maybe the thicker spring does have an adverse affect how the slide cycles.
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Old 10-12-2018, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SHOOT1SAM View Post
No disrespect to the OP...but, couldn't this simply be a case of limp-wristing it just a smidge in the middle of all the shooting? Seems unlikely to me that if it was a spring issue, it would only happen one, single time.

Sam
Fair question. Long story short... I don't think I was. I typically don't have problems with limp wristing--I've shot my share of compact .45s, including my Sig P245 which I put a lot of rounds through that same day (I declared it "big boom range day." 45s and 10mm).

I'll say that my girlfriend put a few mags through the 1076 before it had the mishap. And while she's a solid shooter, she doesn't exactly have wrists of iron... it never choked on her.

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Old 10-12-2018, 01:58 AM
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Originally Posted by MattyD380 View Post
... but I'm running nearly new white-follower mags with Wolff +10% springs and a 20lb Wolff recoil spring.

Could the Wolff springs be throwing things off? Wondered if anyone has experienced any similar issues with (or without) the Wolff springs.

In any case... it's only one stoppage in many hundreds of rounds.
I run pretty much the same setup in my 1006 & 1076. I handload a wide variety of powder/bullet combinations, all upper end loads. I doubt the springs have anything to do with it (*).

How long ago did you add those springs & how many rounds have you fired since then with them?
Is the mainspring original to the pistol or has it been replaced too?

(*) My notes don't show I had a "fit issue" with the Wolff 20# recoil spring in my 1006 or in my 1076. However I have had issues several times, on other 3rd Gens, where a Wolff recoil spring would cause the slide to stop/bottom out on the recoil spring, not the frame abutment, and need trimming.

You can't look at length alone. The thickness of the coils factor in on whether the length (number of coils/spacing) & the coil's thickness take up too much space in the pistol.

I've learned to always check that a new spring fits properly by moving the slide fully rearward, without the barrel or recoil spring/guide rod installed, on the frame. Then pencil mark a matching spot on the two, slide & frame.

Now completely assemble everything with the new spring installed & see if the pencil marks still align with the slide fully rearward. You may also hear/feel a "dull" impact versus a sharp one if it stops before the mark.

Since you don't recall all the specifics to this single failure it might be worth more testing & better observations on what happens. See if you can repeat it. If not don't worry anymore about it. Things aren't perfect, stuff happens.

.
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Old 10-12-2018, 09:12 AM
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You really do need to conduct further testing to determine if there is really an issue with the pistol or the magazine. If I had to just guess, the magazine would be my first suspect.
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Old 10-12-2018, 09:49 AM
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I would also take the mags apart and check to make sure the springs were installed correctly and there were no bends or flaws. Maybe mark the baseplate of the mag that was in use when the issue occured so you can see if it occurs again with the same mag.

I would also wipe them bone dry while I had them apart.

I would not let one occurence of a malfumction shake my confidence in the gun. But I would shoot it once or twice more to assure reliability before using it for serious purpose. Good luck! Regards 18DAI
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37 View Post
I run pretty much the same setup in my 1006 & 1076. I handload a wide variety of powder/bullet combinations, all upper end loads. I doubt the springs have anything to do with it (*).

How long ago did you add those springs & how many rounds have you fired since then with them?
Is the mainspring original to the pistol or has it been replaced too?

(*) My notes don't show I had a "fit issue" with the Wolff 20# recoil spring in my 1006 or in my 1076. However I have had issues several times, on other 3rd Gens, where a Wolff recoil spring would cause the slide to stop/bottom out on the recoil spring, not the frame abutment, and need trimming.

You can't look at length alone. The thickness of the coils factor in on whether the length (number of coils/spacing) & the coil's thickness take up too much space in the pistol.

I've learned to always check that a new spring fits properly by moving the slide fully rearward, without the barrel or recoil spring/guide rod installed, on the frame. Then pencil mark a matching spot on the two, slide & frame.

Now completely assemble everything with the new spring installed & see if the pencil marks still align with the slide fully rearward. You may also hear/feel a "dull" impact versus a sharp one if it stops before the mark.

Since you don't recall all the specifics to this single failure it might be worth more testing & better observations on what happens. See if you can repeat it. If not don't worry anymore about it. Things aren't perfect, stuff happens.

.
I put the recoil spring in late in 2017. Bought the white-follower mags (with +10% springs) around that same time. Since then, I've probably put 200 rounds or so through the gun--Sig EP, Freedom Munitions, PPU JHP. No issues... until now.

If the gun was operating at the edge of its envelope in terms of timing (with the spring mods), maybe a slight limp-wrist, or stout load, etc. was enough to induce a failure. Honestly, I'd need to inspect the springs to see if there are perceptible differences in terms of thickness, slide travel, etc. Subjectively, it just seemed tougher to pull back.

I have the "natively sprung" yellow-follower mags that came with the gun. You think using those with a factory-weight recoil spring would be a better idea?
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Old 10-14-2018, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyD380 View Post
Fair question. Long story short... I don't think I was. I typically don't have problems with limp wristing--I've shot my share of compact .45s, including my Sig P245 which I put a lot of rounds through that same day (I declared it "big boom range day." 45s and 10mm).

I'll say that my girlfriend put a few mags through the 1076 before it had the mishap. And while she's a solid shooter, she doesn't exactly have wrists of iron... it never choked on her.
I get that Matt...but personally, if "it's only one stoppage in many hundreds of rounds", I would not be looking at changing springs or followers or magazines or ammo...unless it began to repeat.

YMMV, but it still sounds to me like it was a momentary, microscopic lack of concentration; how many rounds had you been firing, in total, before the 'single' ftf malfunction?

I just hate to see you chasing solutions to a problem that may not exist.

Sam
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Old Yesterday, 01:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SHOOT1SAM View Post
I get that Matt...but personally, if "it's only one stoppage in many hundreds of rounds", I would not be looking at changing springs or followers or magazines or ammo...unless it began to repeat.

YMMV, but it still sounds to me like it was a momentary, microscopic lack of concentration; how many rounds had you been firing, in total, before the 'single' ftf malfunction?

I just hate to see you chasing solutions to a problem that may not exist.

Sam
You have a point. And I'm certainly not immune to bad form. That said, I wouldn't expect a platform with the heft and stability of the 10XX to be all that susceptible to limp wristing. Maybe I'm wrong in that assessment.

In any case, I think BMCM's logic with regards to the recoil spring makes sense. In an "oversprung" state, maybe a lapse in form was enough to induce an issue. I've ordered a factory weight spring which should arrive next week. I will put a few boxes through it and see how it goes... might just test fate and ease up on the grip a little... see what happens. Before I changed to the 20lb spring, I can remember mag-dumping the gun with no problems--you can bet my form wasn't stellar then.

In all honesty, if the gun bobbles with a momentary lapse in concentration... maybe it's just not the right gun for me. Maybe 10mm is just too powerful, given my level of skill. I suspect, however, that's not the kind of gun Smith designed.
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