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Old 10-19-2018, 10:10 AM
nola000 nola000 is offline
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Firearm in question is a CS9. Bought it second hand but it appears to have been fired a few times and then safe queened.

Problem Im having is -

1. Firearm unloaded, mag removed
2. Full mag inserted
3. Draw back slide to chamber round
4. About 2/3rds of the way into full chamber, if I look downward into the ejection port, I can see the next round below it sliding forward slightly
5. Try to drop the magazine free. Hangs up on that protruding round in the mag. Have to pull the magazine out then seat round back where it belongs in the mag.

No, I have not tried other ammo. This is the only ammo I have. Its Winchester Train & Defend.

Yes, I have oiled the underside of the slide that drags on the top of the round when cycling. Maybe I need to polish it, I dont know. It feels pretty smooth.

Yes, I tried bending the ears on the magazine in thinking they were widened out and allowing the top round to sit up too high.

The only thing I can think is that -

1. Maybe the magazine spring is too strong
2. Maybe the feed ramp is too steep causing the round being chambered to grab the next round with its rim and pull it forward with it.
3. Maybe the extraction grooves/rims on this particular ammo are too wide and sharp causing it to bite the casing below and drag it forward with it.
4. Maybe the magazine release it worn and allowing the mag to sit too high in the well causing excessive dragging of the slide on the top round.

Im thinking of ruling out 2. and 3. because it appears to be happening right before full chamber. At that point the round being chambered is pretty much parallel with the barrel which would mean that the rim is no longer in contact(or barely) with the round below it or isnt at a steep enough angle to grab it.

I really dont know, though. I was hoping that somebody here with experience with this can point me in the right direction.

Last edited by nola000; 10-19-2018 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 10-19-2018, 10:22 AM
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Congrats on the CS9! Great little 9mm.

What you describe is normal. My CS9 does it and my 3913 does it all the time. Has from the time I bought it 23 years ago. And to date neither pistol has ever malfunctioned while firing. Never. Neither one.

Granted, I only have around 900 rounds through the little CS9 and in excess of 8000 through the 3913. But while initially troubling, the next round slipping forward has proven to be of no consequence.

In fact, with the 3913, I have come to expect the top round in the mag to come falling outof the magwell when I drop a loaded mag out to unload the gun.

I would NOT polish the stripper rail in the slide. It is functioning normally.

Should you experience a malfunction, especially a double feed, while firing, I would replace the follower and mag spring. A new recoil spring in a pistol with unknown round count is good insurance too.

Enjoy that fine little 9mm! Have you started hunting for a CS45 yet? You will be. Regards 18DAI
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Old 10-19-2018, 10:29 AM
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Have you started hunting for a CS45 yet? You will be.
Start saving today. He speaks the truth.

Imagine how I know that.
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Old 10-19-2018, 10:33 AM
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OP, your gun is fine. Trying to "fix" it risks ruining. Do what 18DAI said and enjoy your fine pistol.
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Old 10-19-2018, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by 18DAI View Post
Congrats on the CS9! Great little 9mm.

What you describe is normal. My CS9 does it and my 3913 does it all the time. Has from the time I bought it 23 years ago. And to date neither pistol has ever malfunctioned while firing. Never. Neither one.

...the next round slipping forward has proven to be of no consequence.

In fact, with the 3913, I have come to expect the top round in the mag to come falling outof the magwell when I drop a loaded mag out to unload the gun.
Youve made me feel MUCH better about this. I thought there was something wrong with my pistol. I was starting to think I had a lemon. Ive already had the slide lockup on me because the firing pin safety lever plunger was damaged. Dont know how it got that way on a safe queen but it took a gunsmith and an experienced one at that, quite a while to figure it out.

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I would NOT polish the stripper rail in the slide. It is functioning normally.
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OP, your gun is fine. Trying to "fix" it risks ruining. Do what 18DAI said and enjoy your fine pistol.
Duly noted. Will not touch.

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Enjoy that fine little 9mm! Have you started hunting for a CS45 yet? You will be. Regards 18DAI
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Start saving today. He speaks the truth.

Imagine how I know that.
I keep reading this but truthfully, I have zero desire to acquire a .45 chambered pistol. Or any other caliber for that matter. I only own .22LR, 9mm, 12ga. and .32 ACP. Obviously, Im cost sensitive to ammo. I only have the .32 because its the slimmest and best pocket carry pistol(Kel-Tec P32).

However, I do keep my eyes open for a 5906 or 5926.
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Old 10-19-2018, 11:47 AM
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Part of what keeps the slide velocity under control is drag pressure from the ammo stack in the magazine. As the guns get smaller and shorter this becomes especially critical since the shorter, lighter slides on the sub-compacts cycle so much faster. It become quite a bit more of an engineering challenge to solve, keeping the slide slow enough that it does not outrun the magazine... and do this consistently. Allow or cause the slide to cycle too quickly and it closes on an empty chamber. This having run right past the ammo stack because it cycles faster than the magazine spring can lift and present the next round before the breechface.

There is a balance between three springs that keeps slide velocity in check; The mainspring controls slide velocity at the beginning of the firing cycle as the rearward slide travel cocks the hammer when the recoil spring is at it's weakest near installed length, The magazine adds drag through the ammo stack to slow the slide down throughout the cycle. And the recoil spring which would be more correctly termed the 'return to battery spring' brakes the slide to a halt and returns to battery stripping the next round off the ammo stack on the way.

Mess with any of those springs... allow then to become weak ... install extra power springs for no reason... replace mainspring with lighter spring to lessen DA trigger. (poor man's trigger job) and you invite problems.

Your CS9 is behaving exactly as it should. I second 18DAI's advice... Don't try fixin' whut ain't broke

I thought this might help you understand whats going on under the hood and why it's behaving as designed.

Cheers
Bill
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Old 10-19-2018, 01:10 PM
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I have zero desire to acquire a .45 chambered pistol.
Yup, that sounds familiar.
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Old 10-19-2018, 04:51 PM
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The top round being dragged a little forward isn't anything new, nor is it even really a "problem".

Yes, if the bullet nose goes too far ahead of the frame cut in front of the mag well, it can result in the top round being pulled loose/free of the lips, but that's usually only a "problem" when removing a mag to top it off. Just replace the top round bumped loose when you add the "top-off" round. (If you "top-off" your mags, that is.)

This has been observed to happen more often with single stack 9/.45 mags, but it can also happen with a double stack mag. There's usually just more friction and less "wiggle" room between the top round and the slide's pick-up rail in a single stack mag situation.

FWIW, the first several times I noticed this happening in my own 3913 and CS45, many years ago, I chambered my guns on the range, deliberately inducing the condition where the "next up" rounds in that forward displaced position occurred, and repeatedly fired the guns that way. I couldn't ever get the condition to result in a feeding stoppage during live-fire, so when the armorer instructors said that it wasn't a problem, I believed them.

It seems the forward displaced rounds are supposedly pushed backward due to recoil and the slide running rearward, so they're apparently back in the correct position for the slide's pick-up rail to find them and feed them up the feedramp during live-fire.

PS - now that you've "adjusted" the lips of your CS9 magazine, if it were me, I'd discard that particular mag and chalk it up to the results of trying to fix something that didn't really require fixing, and order a new mag.

If the feed lips are now too narrow, it may cause occasional feeding problems like nose-dives, because the rear of the cases won't be allowed to rise up from the narrowed lips in the proper timing during recoil and be released to slide up the breech face. Conversely, if the feed lips are spread too wide it can result in real live-round stovepipes and/or early ejection of live rounds during recoil.

I wouldn't even bother trying to "bend them back", since you don't have the Go/No-Go specs for the lips along their length, but would just consider it a lesson learned.

That's just me, though, Even as an armorer I've learned a few lessons the hard way in my earlier years as a younger armorer. BTDT, myself. (I kept a few of those ruined parts for a while, to remind me of jumping the gun and trying to "fix" something before I'd actually identified whether it was the right problem, or was even a problem that required "fixing", at all. )

Just my thoughts.

Sometimes Midway has CS9 magazines on sale for approx $26. I just checked, and they're the regular retail price there, it seems. Smith & Wesson Mag S&W CS9 9mm Luger 7-Round SS - MPN: 192710000
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Last edited by Fastbolt; 10-19-2018 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 10-19-2018, 05:02 PM
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Why, it's like the guys that designed those 3rd Gen guns knew what they were doing!

Gary

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMCM View Post
Part of what keeps the slide velocity under control is drag pressure from the ammo stack in the magazine. As the guns get smaller and shorter this becomes especially critical since the shorter, lighter slides on the sub-compacts cycle so much faster. It become quite a bit more of an engineering challenge to solve, keeping the slide slow enough that it does not outrun the magazine... and do this consistently. Allow or cause the slide to cycle too quickly and it closes on an empty chamber. This having run right past the ammo stack because it cycles faster than the magazine spring can lift and present the next round before the breechface.

There is a balance between three springs that keeps slide velocity in check; The mainspring controls slide velocity at the beginning of the firing cycle as the rearward slide travel cocks the hammer when the recoil spring is at it's weakest near installed length, The magazine adds drag through the ammo stack to slow the slide down throughout the cycle. And the recoil spring which would be more correctly termed the 'return to battery spring' brakes the slide to a halt and returns to battery stripping the next round off the ammo stack on the way.

Mess with any of those springs... allow then to become weak ... install extra power springs for no reason... replace mainspring with lighter spring to lessen DA trigger. (poor man's trigger job) and you invite problems.

Your CS9 is behaving exactly as it should. I second 18DAI's advice... Don't try fixin' whut ain't broke

I thought this might help you understand whats going on under the hood and why it's behaving as designed.

Cheers
Bill
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Old 10-19-2018, 07:07 PM
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Glad you made this post, mine do the same thing. I am always ready to catch that one round when I take out the mag... now I know it’s normal!


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Old 10-19-2018, 07:38 PM
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I would echo the same as Don-Z. I have a new-to-me 3913 that does the same thing as described. I've not seen this in my 4553TSW, CS45, 4506-1 or 5906. I was thinking that something was amiss.

Thanks to each of you whom have dissuaded my concerns.
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Old 10-20-2018, 02:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastbolt View Post
It seems the forward displaced rounds are supposedly pushed backward due to recoil and the slide running rearward, so they're apparently back in the correct position for the slide's pick-up rail to find them and feed them up the feedramp during live-fire.
I like the theory of the slide's rearward motion resetting the round back in the mag.

It's was my observation though, when converting my 4013 to a 1013, that the pistol's higher recoil increased the likely-hood of displacing the top round forward. While that was partially because the 4013's magazine wasn't designed for the 10mm, the problem of the round moving forward was exasperated with full handloads versus moderate loads.

I liken it to why you have a bullet jumping crimp in a lightweight revolver. The gun recoils backwards & the (relatively) free bullet doesn't have enough tension holding it in place. The bullet doesn't move rearward at the same as it's brass, or the gun, & is displaced forward of where it started & should be.

In an auto if the top round moves too far forward the nose of the bullet can hit the slide stop's finger when the round pops fully up, locking the slide back prematurely.

And yes, I have the same issue as the OP stated in my 3914s but it's never caused any problem more than me having to bend over & pickup the round off the floor when I remove a full magazine with a loaded chamber.

.
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Old 10-20-2018, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37 View Post
I like the theory of the slide's rearward motion resetting the round back in the mag.

It's was my observation though, when converting my 4013 to a 1013, that the pistol's higher recoil increased the likely-hood of displacing the top round forward. While that was partially because the 4013's magazine wasn't designed for the 10mm, the problem of the round moving forward was exasperated with full handloads versus moderate loads. ...
As recoil forces reached a point where the jarring started to displace a top round in the mag forward, the engineers seemingly started looking at ways to help prevent forward displacement.

In the .45's this was eventually the adoption of the large rectangular "P-lip" indentation, and then when the CS45 came along they added a secondary set of dimples to the bottom/rear of the standard P-lip indentation. (The smaller set of dimples we saw in some older 4506 & 4516 mags were replaced by the larger rectangular indentation.)

The 10's got their own unique set of indentations.

The .40's got and kept the set of old-style small dimples. I'd not be surprised if the indentations designed to address the recoil forces developed in the .40 might not stand up to the forces generated in the 10mm, especially when it involved a compact aluminum-framed model (like the .40-to-10 conversion) ... and it involved a double stack mag.

If the 10's had stuck around for LE/Gov service longer, I've heard rumor that S&W was planning to introduce an aluminum-framed 10 compact, but I didn't hear anything about it having other than the 10 single stack mag. Dunno.

The 9's seem to have escaped the necessity for such magazine tweaks, even when +P & +P+ loads were being popularly used in the 2nd and 3rd gen guns by LE.
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Old 10-21-2018, 02:24 AM
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The .40's got and kept the set of old-style small dimples. I'd not be surprised if the indentations designed to address the recoil forces developed in the .40 might not stand up to the forces generated in the 10mm, especially when it involved a compact aluminum-framed model (like the .40-to-10 conversion)
You're correct about the dimples. From what I've found on the single stack magazines for the 4013 is they came without the rear dimples, and (later) with them.

The problem with their dimples, from a 40-to-10mm conversion perspective, is that once you remove the spacer from the dimpled 4013 magazine (to accept the longer 10mm round) that once beneficial dimple is now in the wrong place (too far forward) to hold the 10mm round in the extractor groove.

In fact it causes binding on the cartridge's body, restricting movement, & has to be reduced/eliminated for proper feeding to occur, which is why I mentioned the 4013 magazines weren't designed for the 10mm therefore not helping to keep the round in place, in this instance.

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Old 10-21-2018, 06:03 AM
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Yep. Normal. Happened on every single stack 3rd gen I ever owned, and I think a few of the double stacks. I only own 2 double stacks now, a 5903 and a 5946. Haven’t shot them in a while but I’ll check later. I used to load a round, then drop the mag to adjust the top round then reinsert. But it never caused a malfunction. Matter of fact, I don’t recall ever getting a Malfunction in any 3rd gen I ever owned.
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Old 10-22-2018, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMCM View Post
Part of what keeps the slide velocity under control is drag pressure from the ammo stack in the magazine....

I thought this might help you understand whats going on under the hood and why it's behaving as designed.

Cheers
Bill
Wow.

Great, GREAT post. I love detailed, informative and concise explanations.

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Just my thoughts.
Great post, again.

This forum is a phenomenal wealth of knowledge and a premium resource.
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Old 02-16-2022, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37 View Post
which is why I mentioned the 4013 magazines weren't designed for the 10mm therefore not helping to keep the round in place, in this instance.

.
I think the mags were originally designed for the 10mm then modified for the 40. The earlier mags didn't have that dimple for the 40's, the later ones had it added.

Yes I know I am reviving an old post. I have questions!!

Rosewood

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Old 02-16-2022, 11:56 AM
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Reading all of the explanation about slowing the slide down, still makes me wonder why I have never noticed this issue in my 6904. Only in the 3913. Is the single stack mag more prone to the round dragging forward?

Rosewood
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Old 02-16-2022, 01:23 PM
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[QUOTE=Fastbolt;140203487]The top round being dragged a little forward isn't anything new, nor is it even really a "problem".

Yes, if the bullet nose goes too far ahead of the frame cut in front of the mag well, it can result in the top round being pulled loose/free of the lips, but that's usually only a "problem" when removing a mag to top it off. Just replace the top round bumped loose when you add the "top-off" round. (If you "top-off" your mags, that is.)

This has been observed to happen more often with single stack 9/.45 mags, but it can also happen with a double stack mag. There's usually just more friction and less "wiggle" room between the top round and the slide's pick-up rail in a single stack mag situation.



In post #8 Fastbolt mentions it.
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Old 02-16-2022, 02:44 PM
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I think most of us here have said "I don't need another gun ." I started here with some revolvers I inherited , S&W's . I soon discovered their semi autos and set out buying any that interested me . Next the guys here turned me on to PC guns , the older ones . I now have 2 safes , stated with a grin on my face .

I have a CS9 , 40 and 45 . I now have a spare slide for the CS40 with a 10mm barrel . They all have been tuned by BMCM , which a lot of us have had done . The man is a master , and you won't regret sending it off to him if you choose to .

So , even though you';re new here , be careful and step lightly . These guns have a way of getting in to your system .
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