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Old 12-29-2019, 10:08 AM
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Default Anyone put a reflex (redot) on a 3rd gen?

I have not seen any threads on this. They are very popular now and I bought one to try on a CZ and a Sig using the dovetail mounting plate so that the slide is not altered My old eyes are really in need of all the help they can get at the range. Anything past 10 yards.. forget it!!

Does anyone have one to show or tell how they mount other than milling the slide? That's a no go for me. I would like to try it on my 4006TSW and 4506 if there is a way.

Thanks
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Old 12-29-2019, 10:33 AM
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Fast fire 3 on a 845 with a dove tail mount.

Tom
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Old 12-29-2019, 01:35 PM
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Vortex Venom on a 745 with rear dovetail mount. Excellent! bob
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Old 12-29-2019, 07:34 PM
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Good question where can I get a dovetail mount for a Vortex Viper on a 4516 - 1
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Old 12-30-2019, 06:38 PM
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somebody must have put one on there 3rd gen 4500 series.
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Old 12-30-2019, 07:09 PM
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Watching with interest on this one. I had to finally add a red dot to my Ruger MKII to hit what i wanted to hit, and it impressed me enough to want to try it on some other handguns. But I'm not drilling any holes in nuthin! (Well, maybe the mounting plate if I have to)

I hated putting scopes on my lever guns, and flat out refused to on some of them. I'll be the same way when it comes to revolvers I suppose, but I will stop at reflex/red dot (small) sights.

I've had very good success in improving my shooting of my lever guns with peep sights. Are they too far from the eye to use successfully on handguns? Never even thought to try until just now.

Watching & waiting ............
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Old 12-30-2019, 08:16 PM
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I have a CZ po9 I had the slide milled and a Vortex Viper put on it changed everything as far as Target acquisition. Good for the old bifocal eyes
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Old 12-30-2019, 08:25 PM
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It's a tack driver.
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Old 12-30-2019, 08:56 PM
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I believe Leupold makes dovetail mounts for their red dots. Possibly other sight makers also.
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Old 12-30-2019, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
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I believe Leupold makes dovetail mounts for their red dots. Possibly other sight makers also.
Do they have them for the S&W 4516 ..

Maybe the better question is what other 3rd gens have the same dove tail rear site as 4516
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Old 12-30-2019, 10:07 PM
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It's a tack driver.
How does the P09 compare to our beloved 3rd gen pistols?
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Old 12-30-2019, 10:50 PM
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EGW sells dovetail mounting plates for various makes and models. SW 1911s but no 3rd gens. I bought the mount for my CZ75BD, I also bought the Vortex Venom Red dot to mount on the mounting plate. I hope to shoot it this week. I should have the mounting plate and optic done tomorrow.
Pistol and Red Dot Mounts
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Old 12-31-2019, 02:17 AM
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I snagged a b square scope mount for square trigger guard 3rd gens years back. Have it currently on my 3906 but will swap it to my 5906 once I assemble it. Will use a trs25 I have laying around.
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Old 12-31-2019, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
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Do they have them for the S&W 4516 ..

Maybe the better question is what other 3rd gens have the same dove tail rear site as 4516
It isn't the sight, it's the dovetail cut for the sight that's the issue. I'd kinda expect that all the 3rd generation sight cuts are the same. If it doesn't fit, send it back.

You can check the various websites and get the answers quicker than we can and then tell you.
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Old 01-01-2020, 07:37 PM
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How does the P09 compare to our beloved 3rd gen pistols?
My3rd Gen S&W 3913NL and CS9 fill a nice void for a sub-compact single stack between my DA/SA CZ's and SIG's. But gotta love the CZ P-07/09 and CZ-75 Full-size and Compacts. Great pistols!
Easy to mill for Red Dots too. Here's my CZ-75 P-01 with a Venom milled by CZCustom:

And P-07 & P-09 milled by Primary Machine:

Last edited by SWCZSIG-Vinny; 01-01-2020 at 07:38 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 01-01-2020, 08:18 PM
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Yep, primary machines that's who milled my po9 slide and cerakoted it titanium.
Now if I can find out for sure what other 3rd gen rear sight dovetails are identical to the 4516-1 so I can put the adapter plate on it for my Vortex Viper
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Old 01-01-2020, 08:24 PM
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Hey vinny, I think I've messaged with you on the other forum, have you put an adapter plate in the rear dovetail of your 3rd gen pistols?
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Old 01-01-2020, 08:43 PM
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Hey vinny, I think I've messaged with you on the other forum, have you put an adapter plate in the rear dovetail of your 3rd gen pistols?
Hey Doc,
My only 3rd Gens (so far) are 3913NL and CS9 which I recently had Novak in Parkersburg WV upgrade to low-mount FO fronts.
But I'll bet they could answer your question about dovetail size for your pistol. It seems like a Viper would still sit low even with a mount plate.
Would love to see it if you can make it work.
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Old 01-01-2020, 08:58 PM
SWCZSIG-Vinny SWCZSIG-Vinny is offline
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P.S.
Some of the 3rd Gens have Novak dovetail cuts.
I have to wonder if this EGW Novak cut plate would work?
adapter plate

I know....it's not going to mount a Vortex Viper, but I've been wanting to try a Holosun 507c which has gotten very good reviews.
My 'ol eyes are about done with iron sights and I've gone pretty much all-in with Red Dots except my pocket pistols.
Once I got past the learning curve; they're just so much faster and more accurate for me. It's kept me in the game.

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Old 01-01-2020, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWCZSIG-Vinny View Post
P.S.
Some of the 3rd Gens have Novak dovetail cuts.
I have to wonder if this EGW Novak cut plate would work?
adapter plate

I know....it's not going to mount a Vortex Viper, but I've been wanting to try a Holosun 507c which has gotten very good reviews.
My 'ol eyes are about done with iron sights and I've gone pretty much all-in with Red Dots except my pocket pistols.
Once I got past the learning curve; they're just so much faster and more accurate for me. It's kept me in the game.
I think it will. I put one on my CZ 75BD, today actually. You really just need to measure the dovetail and match it. They (EGW) doesn't call out any 3rd Gen S&Ws but I think that is just because they are out of production.I bought the Night Sights for my 3913/ 3914 and my 4006TSW. I have this mounting plate from EGW that I will play with and see if it fits. My problem now is I ordered the wrong optic. Fat fingers!!! I thought I ordered wanted the Vortex Razor but ordered the Vortex Optics Venom which only works on a picatinny mount. I will get this right eventually.
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Old 01-02-2020, 08:52 AM
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Anyone put a reflex (redot) on a 3rd gen? Anyone put a reflex (redot) on a 3rd gen? Anyone put a reflex (redot) on a 3rd gen? Anyone put a reflex (redot) on a 3rd gen? Anyone put a reflex (redot) on a 3rd gen?  
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I think it will. I put one on my CZ 75BD, today actually. You really just need to measure the dovetail and match it. They (EGW) doesn't call out any 3rd Gen S&Ws but I think that is just because they are out of production.I bought the Night Sights for my 3913/ 3914 and my 4006TSW. I have this mounting plate from EGW that I will play with and see if it fits. My problem now is I ordered the wrong optic. Fat fingers!!! I thought I ordered wanted the Vortex Razor but ordered the Vortex Optics Venom which only works on a picatinny mount. I will get this right eventually.
If the picatinny mount is a separate piece, you may be able to just unscrew the Venom optic from that mount and then use it on a dovetail or milled plate mount.
The Venom is actually a very good pistol optic. I especially like the top-loading battery, vertical lines on rear that can serve as your rear BUIS, and the intensity adjustments are good.
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Old 01-02-2020, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
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EGW sells dovetail mounting plates for various makes and models. SW 1911s but no 3rd gens.
Doesn't the SW1911 use the same rear dovetail as the 3rd Gen w/ Novaks?

I do know the S&W Novaks use a different angle cut than the "standard" Novak cut.

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Old 01-02-2020, 10:51 AM
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You may be correct about the SW1911 Novak working on some 3rd Gens.
My 3913 rear low-mount sight is metal, has 'Novak' marked on it, and a set screw to lock down.
However, my CS9 has a plastic rear 'Novak-style' sight that was apparently carried over from the S&W Value line 900 series. My understanding is that it slightly different so S&W wouldn't have to pay Novak a premium.
I would think a sight specialist like Novak or Dawson and a few measurements could help clarify exactly what dovetail you have and IF or what RDS mount would work.
Any info or a cross-reference of 3rd gen dovetail measurements could help many of us in the future, as optics on pistols are likely to become as prolific as scopes on rifles. I vaguely recall seeing a chart with dovetail angles & measurements posted somewhere??

Last edited by SWCZSIG-Vinny; 01-02-2020 at 06:36 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 01-02-2020, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
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You may be correct about the SW1911 Novak working on some 3rd Gens.
My 3913 rear low-mount sight is metal, has 'Novak' marked on it, and a set screw to lock down.
However, my CS9 has a plastic rear 'Novak-style' sight that was apparently carried over from the S&W Value line 900 series.
My 908 has the plastic sights, and the rear sits on top of the slide. The 3913 has the Novak cut sight that is milled lower on the rear. The plastic sight is definitely a different mount than the steel. I don't think those plastic sights can even be considered Novak style.

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Old 01-02-2020, 11:15 AM
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Has anyone tried the EGW SW1911 mount on a 3rd gen with the NOVAK markings on their rear sight??
I'm very tempted to just invest $50 in the EGW mount and see if it fits on my 3913 with the 'Novak' rear sight. It will mount either an RMR or Holosun 507c. Been wanting to try a 507c anyhow.
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Old 01-02-2020, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
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Has anyone tried the EGW SW1911 mount on a 3rd gen with the NOVAK markings on their rear sight??
I'm very tempted to just invest $50 in the EGW mount and see if it fits on my 3913 with the 'Novak' rear sight. It will mount either an RMR or Holosun 507c. Been wanting to try a 507c anyhow.


I talked to EGW today as I ordered the wrong mount for my CZ75. Tory were extremely helpful. Itís possible they may even know that answer itís just not publicized in the mount package.
I will try to remember and call again and ask them that question. It may save a lot of leg work. I agree with a post above too.. I think these will become the norm on pistols very soon.


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Old 01-03-2020, 02:25 AM
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I am actually working with an engineer/ machinist buddy to work up a mount to replaced the winged or as I call them dog ear adjustable sights on my 5906ís and others with the same adjustable cut. To mount a pic rail or mill a mounting plate for a venom or similar. This has been brought up every few years. I donít think thereís enough meat to mill it. But running it flush to the top of the barrel should work.
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Old 01-03-2020, 05:29 PM
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Egw contacted me here's what they said concerning their mounts for RDS on a 3rd gen.
Hi ,
Thank you for contacting us. We have found that S&W's typically do not have a true Novak cut, but one that is very close. We have mounts for S&W fixed rear sights that should work on your gun.

Viper/Venom S&W 1911 Fixed Sight Mount (fits Burris FastFire and Docter)
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Old 01-03-2020, 07:01 PM
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Egw contacted me here's what they said concerning their mounts for RDS on a 3rd gen.
Hi ,
Thank you for contacting us. We have found that S&W's typically do not have a true Novak cut, but one that is very close. We have mounts for S&W fixed rear sights that should work on your gun.

Viper/Venom S&W 1911 Fixed Sight Mount (fits Burris FastFire and Docter)
^^^^^THIS looks like a good RDS mounting solution!
Please let us know how it works out. Thanks!
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Old 01-03-2020, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
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How does the P09 compare to our beloved 3rd gen pistols?
I have the 4006 TSW CHP and the 4516 - 1.
How it feels, in my hand S&W feels way better , much more comforting.
Even though I did some extensive work of the trigger mechanism of the po9 it's still does not compare to either the 4006 or the 4516-1 triggers.
My CZ is a very light trigger but the S&W is are so dang smooth.
S&W trigger pull is a lot heavier but the smoothness of the trigger pull seems to make up for it.
The S&W triggers break like glass , CZ , mmmmm, not so much.
The CZ po9 is a great competition pistol, used by many professionals.
Forgot to mention , I used to carry the P-O9, but now carry the 4516 - 1.
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Viper / Venom Novak
I'm thinking this may be the correct one for my 4516 - 1
Edit : then again I think this one has too much of an angle cut , the other one for the 1911
I believe above in vinny's post is correct.
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I sent an email back to egw requesting a better picture of the 1911 mounting plate.
When I get the info I'll post it and the pictures, if he sends them. I also mention to him if this is the right mounting plate that he might want to stock up.
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Viper/Venom S&W 1911 Fixed Sight Mount (fits Burris FastFire and Docter)
I ordered this one cuz I'm too impatient to wait for the email to come back.. when I get it I'll mount it and see what happens.
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Old 01-05-2020, 10:08 AM
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My 845 has the BOmar sight cut.
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Okay guys, I got the egw Red Dot sight mount, the one I got is the 49330 it's for the 1911 fixed site.<<< I believe it's the wrong one. I made it work but it doesn't fit perfectly. The one you may want to try is the 49311 for Novak sights, but you're still going to have to file down the rear of the mount to accommodate for the hump on the back side of the slide, at least on my 4516-1 it has a hump that is usually right behind the Novak sight. I'm reshaping my holster today maybe in the next two days I'll post some pictures. I'lI adjust the Red Dot so it works. I'll know better on that point after a range trip.
Edit : just so you guys know I bought the last 49330 that's for the 1911. You can get the right one over at opticsplanet, I believe even a little cheaper.#49311
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Well here's the pictures it ain't pretty but I had to do some macgyvering to make it fit. Some of the black paint on the mount got marred.
Whenever I get to the range I'll post how that goes.
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Well here's the pictures it ain't pretty but I had to do some k to make it fit. Some of the black paint on the mount got marred.
Whenever I get to the range I'll post how that goes.


Did you you use the 1911 mount?
I Finally got the right mount for my CZ75BD and installed it yesterday.
That was the easier path. Now that I have the lay of the land the 4006TSW or 4505-1 May be next. I have to get this to the range 1st. I donít even know how well Iíll like it yet. Nicely done Doc1500.




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Did you you use the 1911 mount?
I Finally got the right mount for my CZ75BD and installed it yesterday.
That was the easier path. Now that I have the lay of the land the 4006TSW or 4505-1 May be next. I have to get this to the range 1st. I don’t even know how well I’ll like it yet. Nicely done Doc1500.




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If I were you I would have sent that pistol to primary machines and had them Mill the slide for the RDS.
Yes I used the 1911 Mount but I believe it's the wrong one. Or there just needs to be a whole lot more fitting needed.
You're absolutely going to love it especially if you have old bifocal eyes.
No more lining up rear sight, front sight , put on target.
Bring your pistol up to eye level dot on Target, fire .
If I had the extra cash I would put one on every pistol I own and rifles.
Good luck and happy shooting.
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If I were you I would have sent that pistol to primary machines and had them Mill the slide for the RDS.
Yes I used the 1911 Mount but I believe it's the wrong one. Or there just needs to be a whole lot more fitting needed.
You're absolutely going to love it especially if you have old bifocal eyes.
No more lining up rear sight, front sight , put on target.
Bring your pistol up to eye level dot on Target, fire .
If I had the extra cash I would put one on every pistol I own and rifles.
Good luck and happy shooting.
I have a lot of pistols I would like to do this with if it's all that everyone says they are. Yes my 63 year old eyes need a lot of help. Bifocals and then some. I did not want any of my slides milled until I tried this on a pistol I shoot well that also had a dovetail mount readily available. That's why it's not on one of my S&W 3rd gens yet. So after this experiment is over I can make some decisions. You don't need a reflex site for every gun. Just the ability to mount it. They come on and off very easily and quickly. Yes, there may be site adjustment issues. That's why the experiment with a pistol I can return to original condition. Range report by the weekend.
BTW the dovetail mount was very easy to install. It took about 10 minutes AFTER I got the other sight off. That was a little harder. I thought I could do it without a sight removal tool. $42 later I had a sighter removal tool in my tool inventory. But the installation including the reflex itself was less than 30 minutes.
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Old 01-11-2020, 04:42 PM
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Disregard this post, I have since fixed it **Well guys, I removed the RDS mount from my 4516 - 1. I don't like the way it fit, and I'm not convinced the other RDS dovetail sight Mount for novak from egw would work. You would still have to be modified because of the hump on the back of the slide.
And also the front side of the mount I don't believe is cut high enough to lay perfectly flat on the slide in front of the dovetail.
If I do try this, I'm going to have to find somebody with a milling machine to be able to take the proper amount of metal off of the mount to do it properly.
And also there is no way that I'm going to try and alter the top of the slide or any other part of the slide to accommodate this mount.
If anybody else has any suggestions or info to pass along to help me with this quest of putting and RDS mount in the dovetail on top of my 4516-1 I would appreciate it.
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Old 01-14-2020, 08:54 PM
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Well guys I decided to have another go at the mount for my RDS on my 4516 - 1.
The dovetail Mount I used is egw 49330.
Because I don't have a mill I had to use some good files to remove about a sixteenth of an inch of material on the bottom side of the mount in front of the dovetail.
And also had to remove about the same amount of material to be able to clear the hump on the back of the slide.
It was quite a bit of an effort without using a milling machine but I believe is going to be definitely worth it to have a better sight picture with these old bifocal eyes.
I believe there's a local guy that can cerakote the mount for me so it doesn't corrode.
Going up to the neighbors range tomorrow and put a few rounds through it to see how it is. Wish me luck
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Old 01-14-2020, 08:57 PM
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The correct picture
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Old 01-14-2020, 11:29 PM
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Looks good to me. It is aluminum isn't it? Corrosion shouldn't be a problem. Black sharpie will clean it up a bit until u can get something more permanent done.

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I was able to get mine to the range the other day, (CZ75 BD). It was great to be able to see the target past 10 yards. And to shoot with both eyes open. I moved the target out to 25 yards and was for the 1st time in memory, was able to acquire a target and hit was I was shooting.
I had 2 glitches. The screws that hold the Vortex into the mount, kept loosening (need locktight) and the battery on the top of Vortex popped open 3 different times and flew off the slide. I had to look for it on the floor and was lucky not to lose it. This I think I have these fixed.
If it does it next time at the range it's being returned as defective. Neither of these issues are serious. I really liked this sight. Now on to a S&W 3rd Gen. Possible guns I would like to put it on are a 5906, 4006TSW, 457, or my 4506-1. 4006TSW and 5906 and 4506 are my prime candidates. More to come..
I still have the option to get any slide milled but I don't want to muck up a slide.
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Old 01-15-2020, 10:09 AM
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I was able to get mine to the range the other day, (CZ75 BD). IT was great to be able to see the target past 10 yards. And to shoot with both eyes open. I moved the target out to 25 yards and was for the 1st time in memory was able to acquire a target and hit was I was shooting.
I had 2 glitches. The screws that hold the Vortex roto the mount kept loosening (need locktight) and the battery on the top of Vortex popped open 3 different times and flow off the slide. I had to look for it on the floor and was lucky not to lose it. This I think is fixed. If it does it next time at the range it's being returned as defective. Neither of these issues are serious. I really liked this sight. Now on to a S&W 3rd Gen. Possible guns I would like to put it on are a 5906, 4006TSW, 457, or my 4506-1. 4006TSW and 5906 and 4506 are my prime candidates. More to come..
I still have the option to get any slide milled but I don't was to muck up a slide.
+1 ^^^^^My sentiments exactly!
I struggled for years with declining eyesight and tried every type of premium iron sight. The SIG X-RAY-3's on my P365 and P229 worked best and they're fine for close-range SD but past 7 yards it's a stretch, past 10 forget it, my 'ol eyes can't see both the target and irons at the same time.
Then a miracle happened about 3 years ago.......I discovered Red Dots. I'm back in the game at my local club, runn'in and gunn'in with young guys who are certainly faster, but few as accurate! With a '7' in front of my age, I'm happy just being in the middle of the pack.

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Old 01-15-2020, 01:30 PM
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The old guys red dot shooting club, Count Me In.��
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Old 01-15-2020, 05:49 PM
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I just returned from my neighbor's range, trying out my vortex Viper red dot on my 4516-1.
This is actually the first I've shot this pistol.
WOW, what a fantastic shooting pistol !!!
As compared to my CZ po9 9 mm to me the 4516-1 has less felt recoil and less muzzle flip.
I am extremely pleased with how this pistol handled during slow fire and fastfire. Standing From 7 to 15 yards all shots within in a 6 inch circle. I couldn't ask for more. But will probably tighten the groups after much more practice. Double thumbs up on this pistol.
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One thing I forgot to mention above was, I put 50 lawman 230 gr fmj Flawless rounds through it. I had one round that the slide did not go totally into battery, about an eighth of an inch short of completely closing. I pushed the slide forward no problems after that.
I'm also going to put in a Sprinco #45162 double recoil spring. Next time I go to the range I'll post about how those Springs worked out.
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Yes, I've been stocking up on extra Wolff recoil springs, as that seems to be the main wear item to keep these 3rd Gens humming along for 10's of thousands of rounds. I haven't determined the replacement schedule yet, but typically the short barrels work extra hard and when they start FTB or throwing brass far it's already overdue. And taking care to keep the extractor clean with a b/u spring on hand too.
From other Gen 3 owners comments I've read and my own experience, (of course depending on ambient temperatures) the stainless or carbon slide on aluminum alloy rails really appreciate a 'sticky' super-slick grease to keep everything moving freely and reduce rail wear. I use Brian Eno's Slide-Glide or EWG. MY CZ's and Especially SIGs love it too. YMMV
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Old 01-15-2020, 09:40 PM
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Well, I guess I got the wrong spring set up or don't have the right Rod to go inside mine is too fat to go inside the smaller coil.
Would somebody please school me on this ?
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