Springs and Things

[GaryS]

Well, actually just magazine springs.

I took my 3914DAO to the range today for some shooting. I'm trying to decide if I want to use 124gr JHP for self defense or go with 147gr.

124gr is what NYPD specifies for that gun and so far I'm shooting smaller groups with it, but a bit higher.

Which is not the point of this post.

I grabbed three magazines out of the cabinet and tossed them into my range bag. Like many of you, I buy 3913/14 magazines when I can find them at a good price. Usually, I take them apart, clean them and replace the springs. Usually.

I went to load up some S&B 124gr FMJ for my first round of shooting when the problem cropped up. I could only get one of the magazines to take 8 rounds. The other two would only take 7 rounds. Hmmm.

I took all three magazines apart and found that the two problem magazines had shorter springs then the good one.

Well, that seemed odd because I'd expect to find longer springs causing the problem.

I shot with the magazines I had and the gun fired flawlessly. I fired one box each of 147 and 124 with no failures, so at least the magazines functioned okay.

When I got home, I stripped the two problem magazines down and replaced the springs with a couple from my stack of replacement springs. I was then able to load eight rounds in each, so that was definitely the problem.

I don't know what those springs go to, but it's really academic since they are going in the trash.

Here is a side by side picture of one of the problem springs and a good one.



This just reinforces what many here have said. It's always a good idea to replace springs on any used magazine you acquired. It just avoids all sorts of potential problems.

[TercGen]

Interesting, I also have a few used 3913 mags that came with the all-red spring, but I haven't had issues with them. Granted, I can't say that I've used any of them recently. Next time I can get to the range (God willing) I'll be sure to bring a few along. Can't understand why they would not let you load 8 though.

[jimbo728]

Although I doubt it, because you seem to know what you are doing, that the red short springs might have been backwards in the mag. Anyway, it sounds like you resolved it successfully!
Jim!

[GaryS]

I checked that when I took them apart. I took one apart, flipped it around and tried it again with no change.

I'm completely baffled why they wouldn't let me load eight rounds. Other than the length, they look the same as the other springs.

Maybe someone has some ideas of what was going on.

Originally Posted by jimbo728

Although I doubt it, because you seem to know what you are doing, that the red short springs might have been backwards in the mag. Anyway, it sounds like you resolved it successfully!
Jim!

[TercGen]

I could be wrong, but I believe the 3913 mag springs can be installed either end up, so no wrong way to install them.

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by TercGen

I could be wrong, but I believe the 3913 mag springs can be installed either end up, so no wrong way to install them.

True, but the loop is supposed to go in the front of the follower as I recall. At least I've never seen one with the loop at that back of the follower.

[TercGen]

Originally Posted by GaryS

True, but the loop is supposed to go in the front of the follower as I recall. At least I've never seen one with the loop at that back of the follower.

Well, I guess that would be a wrong way of installing a mag spring. Lord knows it's never occurred to me to even try it that way, and I also have never seen it done. Now I'm tempted to try it just to see what happens...

[3wire]

Were the mags s&w or aftermarket?

You would think with the short springs, if you pressed real hard, you could maybe get nine rounds in one.(sarcasm) I'm glad the fix was as easy as just replacing the springs with the correct ones.

Do you think the short springs are a result of possibly being stored loaded long term, overuse, or do you think they were poorly made or incorrect altogether?

Now that I've read this thread, I'm wanting to replace all of my 3913NL mag springs. I'm new to this 3rd gen stuff. Can someone suggest the best place to purchase replacements? I see them on Numrich and Midwayusa.

[Sevens]

I have had magazines with springs that were not installed properly. But with the exception of a few questionable (non-S&W and far from big-name maker), I’ve been buying used pistols and used magazines for three decades and haven’t been replacing magazine springs.

Absolutely not a bad idea and likely a great idea to replace magazine springs, but I just can’t really get on board with the idea that this is absolutely necessary for the most part. A couple hundred thousand down range through somewhere well over a hundred magazines tells me that it’s not keeping me awake at night.

Defensive, duty or carry gun? Go to great lengths for sure. Dozens of fun range guns? Nah... I’m good.

[GaryS]

OEM magazines, I've never found reliable aftermarket magazines for the 39xx compacts. I don't know if there are aftermarket magazine springs, but that's only because I've never looked.

I agree with you, I wouldn't think that a shorter spring would allow fewer rounds.

As an experiment, I took the original 3914DAO magazines apart. To my surprise, the overall length of the springs was the same. So, I put one of the questionable springs in to see how many rounds I could load. I could only get seven rounds in those until I put the original springs back in.

I'm baffled as to what is going on with those springs, but I'm not going to worry about it.

Originally Posted by 3wire

Were the mags s&w or aftermarket?

You would think with the short springs, if you pressed real hard, you could maybe get nine rounds in one.(sarcasm) I'm glad the fix was as easy as just replacing the springs with the correct ones.

Do you think the short springs are a result of possibly being stored loaded long term, overuse, or do you think they were poorly made or incorrect altogether?

Now that I've read this thread, I'm wanting to replace all of my 3913NL mag springs. I'm new to this 3rd gen stuff. Can someone suggest the best place to purchase replacements? I see them on Numrich and Midwayusa.

[TercGen]

They must be special NY springs that can only load 7 rounds.

[GaryS]

That thought flashed through my head this afternoon.

Originally Posted by TercGen

They must be special NY springs that can only load 7 rounds.

[3wire]

Mags open, springs everywhere!

[JohnHL]

I love a good mystery!

It looks as though both springs have the same number of coils, so unless the offending spring(s) uses a larger gauge wire, my guess would be that the spring coils are stacking in a fashion to block the mag follower leg(s) at the bottom of travel.

John?

[BLUEDOT37]

Originally Posted by GaryS

OEM magazines...
I don't know if there are aftermarket magazine springs, but that's only because I've never looked.
.

My NIB 3914 (mfd. Oct-1989) had unpainted mag springs.

My 4040PD's magazine springs were all red like the one on the top of your picture.

The new S&W mag springs (#201650000) I got recently from MidwayUSA are part red, like the one on the bottom of your picture. (Same for my 3914DAO mag springs, Jun-2015)

Wolff makes mag springs for it but they're a tight fit for 8rds.

I agree with you. It's penny wise & dollar foolish to not replace the springs on any used pistol you buy. Start fresh.

.

[Heymatt]

Was there ever a 7 round magazine for the 3913/3914 series? If there was then the spring rate could be different or the spring doesn’t nest the way an 8 round mag spring would.

[JohnHL]

Originally Posted by Heymatt

Was there ever a 7 round magazine for the 3913/3914 series? If there was then the spring rate could be different or the spring doesn’t nest the way an 8 round mag spring would.

That's a good guess, however...

Every single stack 9mm from the original model 39 to to the dinky CS9 to the full size 3906 to the compact 3913/14 use the same magazine spring, #201650000, no matter the mag capacity.

John

[GaryS]

My only information is from taking apart one of the LS 7 round magazines a few years ago. There's a post somewhere in this forum about it, but this what I remember.

Body was the same as the 8 round magazine, only with 7 witness holes. The spring had several coils at the bottom that were stacked on top of each other. The magazine also had a metal flush fitting base plate.

I put one springs you describe into the body and was able to put 8 rounds in with no problem.

I put the LS spring into one of my 3913 magazines and it became a 7 rounder.

I'll see if I still have the pictures from that post.

Originally Posted by JohnHL

That's a good guess, however...

Every single stack 9mm from the original model 39 to to the dinky CS9 to the full size 3906 to the compact 3913/14 use the same magazine spring, #201650000, no matter the mag capacity.

John

[Fastbolt]

I'd like to have examined the mags, just out of curiosity. Was the bottom post of the buttplate catch stuck up out of the hole in the mag buttplate? That can eat up some room, and sometimes the mag buttplate may still seem snugly seated. (I'd like to have looked at the S&B ammo in the magazines, too, for that matter.)

Anyway, S&W has shipped single stack 9mm mag springs that were completely painted with red, and with only 3-4 coils at one end painted red. I've received a lot fair number of both over the years.

They've also used both the metal buttplate catch (that are thread onto the bottom coil), and the plastic buttplate catch (cross-shaped center post snapped up within the bottom coil). Making sure the buttplate catch has been installed flat is important, as is making sure the front "lip" of the catch is contained within the bottom of the mag body, and not sticking out the front.

I usually err on the side of conservative caution when it comes to magazine spring replacement, and spring replacement recommendation intervals is a highly controversial topic for a lot of folks. (To put it mildly. )

I just went out and grabbed some of the factory mag springs for the single 9's (and 4040PD, being the same spring).

A little while back I decided to replace the springs in 9 of my 3913/CS9/4040 mags, just because it had been a while. I disassembled a bunch of the mags, and decided to replace the springs in 9 of them. They ranged from about 1 or 2 coil lengths shorter (give or take) compared to a new spring. In the past I typically didn't think about replacing a mag spring until it was at least 2 coils shorter than a new one, or it failed a bench check (lock the slide), or had exhibited a functioning issue during live-fire.

Now, don't get me wrong, as all of these mags had been offering normal reliable feeding and function in my guns before I decided to replace them.

They consistently locked back the slides when rapidly running slides (of EMPTY guns and mags) manually for "bench checks"; locked open the slides on the last round of live-fire at the range; and consistently & reliably fed the usual 124gr +P & 127gr +P+ loads I carry. (Which offer faster slide velocity than the 147gr loads I used to use, and occasionally sometimes still use).

I was simply bored and decided that it was time to do some maintenance of a few of my regularly used mags ... and I had plenty of new springs on hand. It also gave me a chance to finish using up all of the rest of some of the new/old-stock all-red painted mag springs I'd had in my bin for several years.

Now, fortunately, I hadn't gotten around to tossing the old springs yet, so I took some pics to post here.

Here's the 9 old springs I hadn't tossed (but were stuffed into a tool box drawer marked as old 9/4040 springs.


All you can tell from that pic is that they're a mix of mostly some older all-red springs, with a couple springs only painted red at one end, right?

Here's a pic of a couple of the longest & shortest of the old springs, flanking a brand new spring (in the middle). The longest of the old springs (right) is only painted on one end, and the shortest (left) is an older all-red spring.


Bear in mind that all of those older springs were still functioning normally in my 9's and 4040, using the assortment of duty and range I commonly use.

Now, I'm finally down to the remaining new springs seen on the right, in the bag, for my 9's and 4040. Old springs on the left.


I've usually tried to keep more replacement mag springs on hand of this type because I have a 3913, 3913TSW, CS9 and 4040PD, so I use a lot of mags.

I also, however, have a box of new mags (in new factory retail packaging), since I ordered them from a vendor and not directly from the factory. I can't remember how many, since they're locked away on one of my cabinets, but I think I have at least half a dozen new 3913/CS9 mags and maybe another 1 or 2 new 4040 mags, so those mags won't need springs for quite a long time (once I get around to opening them and actually using them).

FWIW, it's not unusual for a brand new mag spring to "take a set" and be shorter after it's been installed in a mag and the mag fully loaded to its expected fully compressed state. Meaning as soon as it's done for the first time.

It may be harder to load that last round for a while, and it may require a "brisk smack" on the mostly inserted mag's butt to get the mag spring to fully compress that last little bit for it to be seated (because the pick-up rail has to push the round stack down to fit between the mag lips ) enough for the mag catch to lock.