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Old 03-25-2020, 02:23 PM
Sevens Sevens is offline
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Default Performance Center: recoil spring weights?

As I'm going to be ordering from Wolff soon, I thought it would be a good idea to grab some recoil springs for my PC guns also but I can't find a resource for original spring weights. So if someone knows them, I'd love to hear them shared. A little exercise of the forum search engine returned mixed results. One post from 11 years back says that S&W claims the 952 spring weight is 12-pounds. That would make it 2 pounds less than the factory original spring weight for the 5906/3906, basically all of the full size 9mm 1-2-3rd Gens.

Now the 952 has a full 5-inch slide and barrel where the 5906 and all full size production 9mm 1-2-3rd Gens has a shorter slide/barrel. Does it make logical sense that the added weight calls for a slightly lighter spring? Opinions and experience here is warranted! And I'll take opinions on whether my 4006 Limited should run the same spring as a 4006 even if the Limited has a longer slide and barrel? (17 pounds is the OEM rate for the 4006)

For my 845, it's the same physical dimensions as a 4506, so the original weight is 14-pounds. This one is easy.

But UGH, my 3566 Limited in .356TS&W? Was that simply the same as the PPC-9 which is very nearly the same gun but with a different finish, in a slightly different caliber?

First World problems for sure. But nonetheless, I'd love to hear what folks have to say on this.
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Old 03-25-2020, 03:18 PM
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I know or so I've been told, the same spring works and is factory for the longer 945,4506,1026,tactical. 40....

So to answer the .40 limited question it would be the 4506 spring.

Hope that some what helps.

I'm sure our forums gunsmith(s) will be along shortly with the correct answer...

To bad we dont have a BMCM "Bat" signal lol.
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Old 03-25-2020, 03:23 PM
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The standard rate for 4506 is 14lbs. Standard for the 4006 is 17lbs.

If I cannot find anything, I’ll stick with 17 for the 4006 Limited. Or maybe I’ll try drawing slides back and see if I can tell any difference?!

Here is what I will NOT do: contact S&W.
I’ll send one of our dozen different Florida guys to go find Paul Liebenberg and ask him!
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Old 03-26-2020, 03:25 AM
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Default 3566 Limited recoil springs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevens View Post
Now the 952 has a full 5-inch slide and barrel where the 5906 and all full size production 9mm 1-2-3rd Gens has a shorter slide/barrel.
Does it make logical sense that the added weight calls for a slightly lighter spring?
The Super 9 uses the same recoil spring as the 4506 "wadcutter", #200710000. Any reason it shouldn't be good in a 952?

I don't have one to test but I suspect it's about 14#. Wolff calls their 14# recoil spring (#47314) the "standard" weight recoil spring for the 4506. I'm not sure I agree.

A factory S&W 4506 (standard power) recoil spring (#201610000) measures in the 17-18# range, for me, & Wolff's 17# 4506 recoil spring (#47317) nets the same force in my testing.

.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevens View Post
But UGH, my 3566 Limited in .356TS&W?
Was that simply the same as the PPC-9 which is very nearly the same gun but with a different finish, in a slightly different caliber?
After I got my 3566 Limited I searched the forum for related info & someone said it used S&W #060480000 recoil spring (14#). I say that's wrong.

My 3566 Limited was unfired & original. The installed (356TSW) recoil spring was longer than a new 5906 recoil spring (#060480000). The 5906 recoil spring measured 4# less force (when installed in the 3566) than the factory 3566 Limited spring in my testing.

Wolff's 15# 4506 recoil spring (#47315) measured the closest to the factory spring, in my testing. (See chart below.)

Once that recoil spring needs replacing I plan on using a S&W factory 4506 recoil spring (#201610000) or Wolff's 17# equivalent spring (#47317) which gives a few pounds extra force for my full power 356TSW handloads.

With my Briley 9x19 barrel installed in the 3566 Limited, which I know you also have one of, I use Wolff's 5906 extra power 16# recoil spring (#47416).

I only handload (+P) & (+P+) 9x19s & this spring works good for them as well as some (low power) target Winchester 115gr FMJ (white box, #Q4172) ammo I bought just to try in it.

.
- Click for larger view -

.


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Old 03-26-2020, 04:01 AM
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If it helps anyone, back around 2012, when I was hunting recoil springs for my PC 4563 and 4566 45 CQBs, s&w could not tell me which spring they took.

I had to track down their designer, Mr. Paul Liebenberg at his current shop, Pistol Dynamics to find the answer. He told me they used the standard factory spring from a 4006.

I bought a few and they work. Hopefully this helps someone else. Regards 18DAI
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Old 03-26-2020, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevens View Post
The standard rate for 4506 is 14lbs. Standard for the 4006 is 17lbs.

If I cannot find anything, I’ll stick with 17 for the 4006 Limited. Or maybe I’ll try drawing slides back and see if I can tell any difference?!

Here is what I will NOT do: contact S&W.
I’ll send one of our dozen different Florida guys to go find Paul Liebenberg and ask him!
The 4506 is a smudge longer than the 4006... I'm sure this plays to engineering and spring length and or weight.

The shorter 4006 in .40s&w, slide velocity will be faster, while I can assume the 4506 being a slower cartridge may be a bit slower slide velocity. ..
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Old 03-26-2020, 01:28 PM
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Oh man, I’m more confused now then when I opened this discussion yesterday!
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Old 03-26-2020, 04:35 PM
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Blue Dot37, are you using some kind of modified or rigged trigger pull gauge to get these weights or did you build some kind of a fixture to measure spring weights? This is very interesting information!

18DAI, I would also love to contact Mr. Liebenberg (whom I hold in irrationally high regard!) and ask his opinions but I’m not sure he is actively taking these kinds of questions. Man, would it be a evening and a half to sit around a campfire and down some suds and hear some tales!
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Old 03-27-2020, 01:27 AM
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It's a very basic set-up using an analog 50# postage scale & an appropriately sized tube (usually a deep socket) between the muzzle & scale to measure the force required to push the slide rearward.

Nothing complicated but the results are relevant to each other & they often closely match a spring's known rating.

.
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Old 03-27-2020, 06:44 AM
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I use one of these and it works fine. I nade a smaller bolt to test flat wound springs and small springs from double spring designs.

Recoil Spring Tester w/Digital Scale, Secure Firearm Products
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Old 03-27-2020, 02:57 PM
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Brother Sevens, your dilemma is not unknown amongst collectors of limited production motorcycles and cars as well as guns.

The builder(s) go on to new challenges and the specifications get lost to time.

I don't know where to find the original recoil spring weights and indeed, finding current or former S&W employees who can recall something even as recent as 3rd gen regular production can be an exercise in frustration.

Maybe I can help in another way.

A few years ago I devised a simple and inexpensive (surprised?) fixture for testing springs.

I clamped a piece of angle iron in a vise and drilled a small hole in the horizontal surface hanging out from the vise.

The hole is just large enough for a narrow rod to fit through.

With a 90 degree bend in the top, the rod is slid through the spring to be tested and then through the angle iron.

Pulling on the lower end of the rod compresses the spring.

Using a combination of barbell weights ( 10, 5, 2.5 lbs), and what guy doesn't have some of those around, placed in a plastic grocery bag and hanging off the end of the rod, I can gauge the resistance of the spring.

When the coils of the tested spring just coil bind, add up your weights and you have the springs resistance in pounds!

I was gratified to discover that a 17 pound rated spring (for example) required right at 17 pounds of weights to compress the spring to the point of just coil binding.

You can test your existing (and somewhat worn) recoil and main springs by this method and that would reveal a weight probably one or two pounds less than original, and allow you to extrapolate the desired spring rate.

Hope this helps.

John
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Old 03-27-2020, 03:13 PM
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I love the idea and I do have the weights but I am not much of a tool maker.

Here is a side tangent for those of you who test spring weights and those of you who change/replace springs often or across many guns:

What are you doing with the springs that are coming out?

So far, I’m just sliding them in the open package from which I’ve taken the replacement spring along with a note that says “original spring from 5906, swapped out xx/xx/xxxx”

A worn out 14lb spring isn’t exactly a good idea for a pistol that needs a 10lb spring.
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Old 03-28-2020, 12:34 AM
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Those individual spring testers are nice but one of the things I usually like to see is what affect the mainspring has working with the recoil spring, which has to been done assembled.

My example above didn't include anything like that (only a standard power mainspring with various recoil springs) but sometimes by increasing the hammer/mainspring a few pounds you can get the extra resistance you're looking for & adjust the recoil poundage accordingly, if wanted.

You might go down a few pounds on the mainspring & then offset it by going up a couple on the recoil, or vice versa.

The chart below shows a comparison of a standard power mainspring & an extra power mainspring when used with the same recoil spring.

.


.


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Old 03-28-2020, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37 View Post
Those individual spring testers are nice but one of the things I usually like to see is what affect the mainspring has working with the recoil spring, which has to been done assembled.

My example above didn't include anything like that (only a standard power mainspring with various recoil springs) but sometimes by increasing the hammer/mainspring a few pounds you can get the extra resistance you're looking for & adjust the recoil poundage accordingly, if wanted.

You might go down a few pounds on the mainspring & then offset it by going up a couple on the recoil, or vice versa.

The chart below shows a comparison of a standard power mainspring & an extra power mainspring when used with the same recoil spring.

.


.


.
All of that is true but when tuning an autoloader I feel you need to do one thing at a time.

I have been working with a Les Baer 6" 10mm Hunter model. The gun came from Les's shop with a spring that tests 16# at maximum retraction of the slide and throws brass a mile. The primers showed some firing pin drag also indicating early slide opening. I went to a #1 Wolff longslide spring cut to max length and it tests 22# at the same retraction length and it helped some.

Next I went to an EGW flat bottom firing pin stop to up the hammer resistance which helped a lot.

My third step would be to go to as stronger mainspring which I might do. I can test the mainspring with the spring tester also.

I agree that all three fixes affect the number but I do not know what the number should be of the combination so I prefer to test and do one at a time as detailed.

I have also put guns in a gun vice and used a makeshift clamp fastened to the back of the slide to see what force it takes to initiate slide opening as you do with some success. I do not have a postal scale and they are not cheap.
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