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06-02-2020, 12:21 AM
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3566tsw pistol
Hi,
I have been offered a 3566 pistol in what looks to be unfired condition. It's a very low serial number tsw00xx it looks to be a full size frame
Can anyone give me some more info on this gun? I don't know much about s&w semi autos or their naming convention. Is this frame shared by other guns?
Am I limited on what mags will work in this gun? After some reading up on the caliber it looks like I have options with reloading, especially if I don't want to copy the original loadings and am happy just loading to normal 9mm velocities (not least because I can't shoot as hot as full power 357mag on the nicer indoor range).
Would I struggle to find spare parts for this gun?
Basically I don't want to buy a paperweight
Thanks
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06-02-2020, 04:51 AM
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It's called a Performance Ctr 3566 LIMITED, .356TSW
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What all comes with yours?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradaz11
I have been offered a 3566 pistol in what looks to be unfired condition. It's a very low serial number tsw00xx it looks to be a full size frame.
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Does it look like this?
3566 Limited, 5" bbl.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradaz11
Is this frame shared by other guns?
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No
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradaz11
Am I limited on what mags will work in this gun?
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No. M5906 magazines will work & are easily found.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradaz11
Would I struggle to find spare parts for this gun?
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Minor parts No. Major & unique parts Yes.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradaz11
After some reading up on the caliber it looks like I have options with reloading, especially if I don't want to copy the original loadings and am happy just loading to normal 9mm velocities (not least because I can't shoot as hot as full power 357mag on the nicer indoor range).
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The 356TSW (9x21.5mm) brass is not currently being produced. It has been in the recent past & it may still be available from individuals that have some as surplus & for sale.
Otherwise you have to make it from 9x23mm brass which is long enough & strong enough (50K psi).
An option would be to buy a 9x19 Briley barrel ($300) for it (at bottom of picture above). If you go that route make sure, before you pay for it, that you have an understanding/agreement on your options if the fit is not to your satisfaction.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradaz11
Basically I don't want to buy a paperweight.
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If you can get it for a price you can live with it's a very unique & limited model that's superbly made.
It's cartridge is it's biggest plus & it's biggest minus.
If it's in good shape it's unlikely you will need parts for it, beyond springs & mags, for a long time.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradaz11
Can anyone give me some more info on this gun? I don't know much about s&w semi autos or their naming convention.
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Earl Minot at Lew Horton told me, when I inquired about mine, that there were (517) Limiteds producted for them, as well as (386) Compacts, for a total of (903) 3566s.
I've seen others repeat that same figure from him too though in a letter someone posted from Roy Jinks he said there were a total of (813) 3566s producted and he could not supply the total of each model at that time. I tend to believe Lew Horton's record keeping over S&W's.
Mine (TSW00xx) was made in July 1993.
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Yes, it's plenty accurate.
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. . .
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Last edited by BLUEDOT37; 12-22-2021 at 03:50 AM.
Reason: .re-add lost FotoTime pics
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06-02-2020, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37
Snip
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Thank you, that is a fantastic, informative post.
The brilley barrel isn't really an option for me. As I'm in the UK, it's all around how special and unique the gun is, sticking a 9mm barrel in it kinda makes it less special, they aren't concerned about it's usability by me. I'll check on that brass availability
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06-02-2020, 11:46 AM
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Phenomenal post by BLUEDOT37 but then again, if you hang out around here, you've come to expect that!
I'll make just one slight correction and add a small take...
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradaz11
Can anyone give me some more info on this gun? I don't know much about s&w semi autos or their naming convention. Is this frame shared by other guns?
Would I struggle to find spare parts for this gun?
Basically I don't want to buy a paperweight
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This model was released in 1993 and I have argued in the past (and will again! ) that outside of the freakishly limited full customs (that are almost literally NEVER seen) and arguably the Briley Comp (which I have never handled) that the 3566 Limited, when lined up against absolutely every other Performance Center pistol that that PC ever produced, could very be crowned THE finest. And certainly not by a huge margin, but just by a bit.
This is to say that all the PC semiauto pistols are phenomenal, but the 5 and 6-inch "Limited" target guns are the best, and of those... the 3566 Limited may be the single finest.
This pistol does in fact share a frame with one other model, and that is the PPC-9. The PPC-9 came in a few different flavors, there was the two different 5-inch guns, one with the short dust cover and square muzzle, and the more plentiful and traditional one that looks much like the 3566 Limited. The PPC-9 was also offered with a 6-inch long slide and barrel, and the WISCHO Target Champion 9mm series was a re-named PPC-9 for the European market, these guns often had wood Nill stocks and a more traditional Bomar style rear sight where the PPC-9 has the "advanced" Aristocrat rear sight and taller front sight.
Would you struggle to find parts? Well... I can't imagine which parts we are talking about. I'll start this way... if you damage the gun or wear it out, then you certainly have a problem. S&W can't honestly help and as a hardcore, knee-deep enthusiast of these guns (these are the absolute center of my interest, bar none), I would investigate nearly any/every avenue before I even considered asking S&W for help. I personally believe that S&W wouldn't recognize this pistol if you shipped it to them, and I'll leave it at that. These are my OPINIONS, and not being yelled out as fact.
If you broke a small internal part... let's say an ejector, extractor, magazine catch, etc etc... not a huge worry there as these are typical 3rd Gen parts (for the most part!) and a billion of these parts exist from many sources. (ugh, yes, even S&W has some)
If you damaged the frame the or barrel or the slide, you would be up the creek. You would need to investigate a true craftsman gunsmith and there would be a period of inspection and discussion before embarking on ideas for a solution.
I am not the timid type. I would rather spend my money on a great old used gun and take the risk of a problem with no recourse than to purchase newly made junk. That's just me.
Will this gun be a paperweight? Well, you said it looks to be unfired. I have a 3566 Limited that was used in competition. I don't know how much, for how long, and I don't know if the guy who sold it to me bought it new or used. (I'm gonna ask him the next time I see him, he's a helluva nice guy! ) and I also have a 5-inch PPC-9 which is nearly but not exactly the same thing and that pistol has a documented 6,286 rounds through it minimum (it has more than that, but that number is certain minimum) and it shoots like a house afire, it is TIGHT, it's feel is INSPIRING, it's accuracy is FANTASTIC, it's trigger is SUBLIME and I could continue but I'll need to dig out a thesaurus.
What could you shoot in this pistol, as it is chambered for .356 TS&W, which is 9mm x 21.5mm...? Well, you could buy .356 TS&W brass and load your own, and this brass is available right now on Gunbroker. You could also buy new old stock .356 TS&W ammo, also to be found at the same place. 9x21 brass might work? As for handloading, I would not use standard 9x19 brass but we have another frequent poster here that will hopefully add his thoughts and suggestions as he has been there and done it. (poster colt_saa)
As suggested by BLUEDOT37, check out Scott Sullivan's Briley conversion barrels, also found on Gunbroker. You could put a 9x19 barrel in it, but I also agree with BLUEDOT37 in that I'm not sure about the best way to make sure it fits as perfectly as the original.
To wrap this up:
It is my opinion that if you purchased a nearly new or mint or possibly unfired 3566 Limited, you might be purchasing one of the absolute finest semi-auto pistols that Smith & Wesson ever made, ever, truly ever.
I cannot imagine any situation where that is a paperweight and if you do buy it and it troubles you, go ahead and send me a PM and we'll talk money. For the right money, I'd love to have another.
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06-02-2020, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevens
another great post
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Thank you, between yourself and Bluedot, I was convinced. I've put a 50% deposit down, now just got to convince the police and gvmt that this meets the requirements to own. I can see no reason why not as under rarity, it's a niche calibre, and under 1000 made. It's certainly got history.
Just waiting on pics from the dealer for it.
Re gunbroker, I've not had much luck in the past buying brass due to itar, my understanding is brass is now not restricted, but I suppose most sellers won't care. Ammo to the UK is ano go.
Brownells UK list starling 9mm largo, but it seems a bit pricey to me, but that might be the best option
Stuart
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06-02-2020, 02:55 PM
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More questions. Sorry. With it being low serial, did s&w serial in order or would they reserve certain numbers to come back to? Say it was tsw0010 would that mean it's the 10th produced, or might they have kept the first block off 10 aerials for special guns?
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06-02-2020, 03:22 PM
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S&W has done lots of different things with blocks of SN’s and I have seen (and will continue to see) some sellers with some theories that seem to suggest their example should be more highly regarded, but where the 3566 Limited is concerned, I see no distinction in any serial number compared to any other.
Your pistol is quite likely to be different from mine and from BLUEDOT37’s pistol in that yours will show 2 or 3 or 4 little proofmarks that were added outside the factory that we don’t have.
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06-02-2020, 03:48 PM
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It seems there are no proof marks on it, the other reason it is assumed it is unfired
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06-02-2020, 03:53 PM
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That’s interesting.
I don’t even begin to know what all the different European countries require... but I can tell you that I’ve seen dozens of WISCHO Performance Center guns and I’ve not seen any without 2-3-4 proofmarks.
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06-02-2020, 04:04 PM
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Well I'll be arranging a time to get a better look at it soon. It seems it was held by a dealer who collects. And taken on by another after the 1st either died or needed cash. My dealer was a bit vague and I didn't press. But in the UK, you only need proof to sell. Transfers between dealers do not require proof. There is also the ability to have a proofed gun released with a certificate of proof, rather than stamping the gun. It is another thing that will need to be discussed if I'm granted authority to purchase. As legally it will need to be proofed before I can take ownership. But the proof houses in the UK aren't known for their careful handling of guns or neat marking. Plus I would need to supply some ammo for them I would imagine
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06-02-2020, 04:05 PM
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What does WISCHO stand for?
Also, is 9x23 9mm largo or 9x23 Winchester or super comp? I'm really starting to get confused here
Last edited by bradaz11; 06-02-2020 at 06:01 PM.
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06-02-2020, 06:55 PM
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I can’t say what WISCHO stands for but I’ll be someone chimes in. It is the European wholesaler/distributor for S&W guns in Europe. At least it was, not sure if they still are.
You might have an AWFUL job ahead of you to obtain factory .356 TS&W for your authorities to be able to proof-test that pistol if you cannot import ammo.
I would guess (all I can possibly do is guess) that there is probably zero boxes of .356 TS&W ammo in all of Great Britain.
We are talking about ammo that has been out of production since the 1990’s (except for a tiny bit that a couple small boutique ammo makers made more recently) and we are talking about ammo that was factory chambered for maybe FIVE models ever made (all S&W and nobody else) and guns that haven’t been made since the 1990’s and we are talking about a European nation where personal gun ownership is extremely rare.
I think this story is likely to have a sad ending.
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06-02-2020, 08:37 PM
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Honest answer is I don't know, BUT I have had a bp muzzle loader fitted with shotgun primer nipple's, proofed for nitro powder. I supplied the powder and ball. Then told them the charge I wanted to load and they proofed it at that. So I assume they did their test at a % of load above that. I expect that if it was too be proofed they would want a case, a powder choice and a load. Then would go X amount over it. That is my guess anyway. I think it will help my dealer send to have a very good relationship with the proof house
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06-02-2020, 09:18 PM
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Recent Auction
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradaz11
Thank you, that is a fantastic, informative post.
The brilley barrel isn't really an option for me. As I'm in the UK, it's all around how special and unique the gun is, sticking a 9mm barrel in it kinda makes it less special, they aren't concerned about it's usability by me. I'll check on that brass availability
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Here’s a post from a recent auction. So a few made it to Europe.
SMITH & WESSON 3566 TSW 356 TSW PC TWO TONE w/ BOX & 9mm BARREL NO RESERVE - Semi Auto Pistols at GunBroker.com : 864624577
The timing for the .356TSW wasn’t good, would things be different if they were to call it, 9mmm, 9 millimeter magnum??
The caliber and the two-tone coloring are certainly unique. The ability to be able to go to the range and shoot two different calibers out of the same gun, that isn’t unique?? This certainly isn’t taking a .357magnum to the range and switching between that and .38special. These are hand crafted works of art.
Joe
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06-02-2020, 10:30 PM
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I purchased new ammunition from Underwood Ammo.
356 TSW 115 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point
356 TSW 115 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point
AMMO ID SYSTEM
BRAND:UNDERWOOD AMMO
SKU:158
TECHNICAL INFORMATION
Caliber: 356 TSW
Bullet Weight: 115 Grains
Bullet Style: Nosler Jacketed Hollow Point
Case Type: Brass
BALLISTICS INFORMATION
Muzzle Velocity: 1600 fps
Muzzle Energy: 654 ft lbs
$19.99
2 reviewsRead Reviews
I have not fired any yet but the quality looks good.
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06-02-2020, 11:32 PM
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Thanks, but I can't have hollow point pistol ammo full stop, and it's not worth trying to import ammo to the UK of it were ball. I just need brass
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06-03-2020, 02:01 AM
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356TSW load data
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradaz11
But in the UK, you only need proof to sell. Transfers between dealers do not require proof. There is also the ability to have a proofed gun released with a certificate of proof, rather than stamping the gun. It is another thing that will need to be discussed if I'm granted authority to purchase. As legally it will need to be proofed before I can take ownership. But the proof houses in the UK aren't known for their careful handling of guns or neat marking. Plus I would need to supply some ammo for them I would imagine
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I remembered a post from a gentleman from Belgium, Lewieke, that had a similar issue getting his Super 9 & it's 356TSW barrel tested & approved.
His related posts start with post #97 & finishes on post #110 in this forum thread. link: 5906 “Super 9” Information
If you need/use the load data listed in post #100 please see my warning/comment on it in post #149.
Maybe there's something here that can help.
.
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06-03-2020, 03:49 AM
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Thanks bluedot, that was a nice read. The English proof houses don't seem to be that bad. I'll call my dealer later next week to confirm, but I don't see it being anywhere near the same issue as him. I hope anyway.
Very good point on that load data and a perfect example of never take what you read to be correct. I won't be able to load my ammo to full stoke loads anyway due to the range limits (1735 FPS @ 475 ft lbs which means I'm limited to about 1300 FPS with a 125gr bullet)
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06-03-2020, 08:48 AM
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Great thread, thanks to all for posting.
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07-26-2021, 03:50 PM
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Hi
just an update to this, I have the permission from the police to buy it, but as suspected, the proofing is now the stumbling block.
does anyone have any actual legit, manufacturer supplied, load data for this ammo? or even any leads on where to go to hunt the info out?
I have sent emails to cor-bon, federal, apex and underwood.
any help would be appriciated
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07-26-2021, 05:07 PM
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Likely your best source of load data for 356 TSW would be to look at teh IPSC/USPSA load data for the 9x21 (making Major). The 356 TSW was not around long, but it was an evolution of the 9x21 loaded hot.
Otherwise, look at some of the 9x19 loads making Major.
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07-28-2021, 03:23 AM
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I've never found any factory load data for the 356TSW.
As mentioned, Major 9x19 load data would work, or 960 Roland load data too, would get you in the ballpark, albeit on the low (but safe) side of what I use in my 356TSW loads which are loaded to max length (1.160").
The 9x21 has a longer (commercial) COAL" (1.170") & some 9x21 IPSC load data is loaded to 38 Super/9x23 max COAL" (1.250"), so beware.
.
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08-03-2021, 02:51 PM
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Underwood was making ammo for the 356 not long ago. I picked up a few boxes when I bought my 356.
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08-03-2021, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradaz11
Hi
just an update to this, I have the permission from the police to buy it, but as suspected, the proofing is now the stumbling block.
does anyone have any actual legit, manufacturer supplied, load data for this ammo? or even any leads on where to go to hunt the info out?
I have sent emails to cor-bon, federal, apex and underwood.
any help would be appriciated
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See post #100, #110, and #149 in this thread, it might help.
5906 "Super 9" Information
I don't know why the hyperlink looks all jumbled, but the thread is titled 5906 "Super 9" Information.
Edit - I should have read the whole thread, it looks like Bluedot37 has the same info in post#17.
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08-04-2021, 01:46 AM
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As an aside I have owned EVERY .356TSW S&W has made, and an observation and experience in shooting them. The 5" Tactical gun is the best 9mm pistol I have ever owned. I bought a 5" and 6" 952 tp cpm[are and the .356TSW outshot both of them. I still have a 3.5" gun. I had the Performance Center rebarrel my guns around 2000 in 9mm so that I had both barrels and Briley bushings. have thousands of factory Federal and Cor-Bon loads in .356TSW so that would e great source of brass. I have replicated those loads on a my chronograph using Montana Gold 124gr. JHP (at the recommendation of the S&W shooting team) so I have load data using VV3n37. These shoot the 124 at about 1250-1300 fps. Briley can make a 9mm barrel to fit their bushing, but if not BarSto can do the job. I have ammo for sale if you need any, and can supply load data. Use 9mm dies. Data is similar to .38Super.
Email me at [email protected].
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08-04-2021, 12:18 PM
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Forgotten Weapons has an excellant YouTube video on the 3566TSW and the history behind it.
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08-04-2021, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tntcwg3
Forgotten Weapons has an excellant YouTube video on the 3566TSW and the history behind it.
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I just watched this.
The guy comes off with a well done presentation, unfortunately half of the facts were incorrect.
I have been researching these events for article and presentation in Tulsa in about 8 weeks
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08-04-2021, 03:45 PM
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You’ve mentioned this project before Colt_saa, I hope there will be a chance for us to see the results of your work too, even for those of us that won’t be going to Tulsa?
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08-04-2021, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colt_saa
I just watched this.
The guy comes off with a well done presentation, unfortunately half of the facts were incorrect.
I have been researching these events for article and presentation in Tulsa in about 8 weeks
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Out of curiosity, what did he get wrong? He covers a lot of different guns and 3rd Gen S&Ws are hardly his forte so I can imagine he wouldn't pick up on a lot of the different quirks about the platform.
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08-04-2021, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammy5150
Out of curiosity, what did he get wrong? He covers a lot of different guns and 3rd Gen S&Ws are hardly his forte so I can imagine he wouldn't pick up on a lot of the different quirks about the platform.
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Half of the facts of the competition story are wrong and several aspects of the firearm and ammunition development are wrong.
Way too much for me to type here. He didn't even have the name of the firearm right
After the Tulsa meeting I am submitting an article for the Journal that will cover this firearm family and most of what has gone on over it's almost 30 year history
After publication, I will reprint it here for those that do not get the Journal
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"Acta non verba"
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09-11-2021, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReloadforFun
Likely your best source of load data for 356 TSW would be to look at teh IPSC/USPSA load data for the 9x21 (making Major). The 356 TSW was not around long, but it was an evolution of the 9x21 loaded hot.
Otherwise, look at some of the 9x19 loads making Major.
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I've got some data for it based on 9x21 Competition loads that I tweaked and tested. PM me for email and I'll send it to you.
Scott
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12-14-2021, 01:24 PM
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Well I got it at long last. Some issues at proof as there's no published data. So I eventually got them to proof it on 9mm data in the converted cases. As we know that oal is same, and it used same components. They were happy with this. So I got it delivered 2 weeks ago. Proof marks are very well done.
Shot some loads through it, but it wasn't cycling. Getting either stove pipes or fail to eject. So went home, pulled all the loaded rounds, loaded them a bit hotter (was 9mm starter loads) so went up to 9mm Max loads. Went back last week and tried them. Same issues!!
So I went to strip the gun, and quickly realised I didn't know how to. Eventually worked it out. Used a case in the ejection port to hold the slide open, then tap the slide release out. The detent was very tight. Have it a bit of a check over. Oil up and put back together. Ran the remaining 70 odd rounds through without an issue. So now to load up more lighter loaded rounds to see how it goes.
What do people use for plinking/target loads? I generally buy 124gr plated flat points.
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12-14-2021, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevens
I can’t say what WISCHO stands for but I’ll be someone chimes in. It is the European wholesaler/distributor for S&W guns in Europe. At least it was, not sure if they still are.
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Wischo is now called Waimex.
Joe
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12-14-2021, 02:24 PM
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Since we're talking 3566's, what is the value of a NIB Compact?
Thanks.
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12-14-2021, 02:53 PM
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I have seen two 3566 Compacts that were sold privately for over $2000 each
There has not been much traffic on the pistols in the usual auction sights recently so there is no apparent trend.
Right now it is basically whatever you can work out between the buyer and the seller
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12-14-2021, 02:57 PM
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I'm going to have to see if I can get another fun in 356tsw imported if one comes up. Doubt that's going to be cheap though.
Now I just need to find more brass, place I bought some from before is quoting 3 months for more
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12-14-2021, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradaz11
I'm going to have to see if I can get another fun in 356tsw imported if one comes up. Doubt that's going to be cheap though.
Now I just need to find more brass, place I bought some from before is quoting 3 months for more
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Check with Starline on the brass, they made them some time ago, I loaded with Starline brass not longer after the TSW's came out as the only game in town back then was Federal.
Cutting down 9x23 was a royal pain in the ...... tail..!
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Last edited by SmithNut; 12-14-2021 at 08:56 PM.
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12-14-2021, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmithNut
Check with Starline on the brass, they made them some time ago, I loaded with Starline brass not longer after the TSW's came out as the only game in town back then was Federal.
Cutting down 9x23 was a royal pain in the ...... tail..!
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starline 9x23 is what I'm using atm. but UK means only a few people actually import stuff, half the shops then get supplied off those importers.
starline don't have any more 356tsw, and even if they did, the uk importers don't seem interested in trying.
UK brownells who drop ship stuff, won't add new stuff to their catalog even though US brownells stock it.
next problem is then mags. do p226 mags fit? they look VERY similar
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12-16-2021, 04:10 AM
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M5906 magazines are identical to the 356TSW magazines minus the labeling.
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Waiting for the break of day
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