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Old 06-25-2020, 06:16 PM
kbm6893 kbm6893 is offline
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Just picked up this 4566 today. Looks to be in good shape. Dirty, and what a pain it was getting the factory grip back on! Literally took me over 30 minutes. Just wouldn't go on. I was careful to avoid the side plate and even took a break to order some Higue grips for it since I wouldn't have to deal with the grips anymore. I generally don't like the Hogie as much because they're fatter but maybe I'll keep them. Who knows?

Anyway, I disassembled the magazines as I always do when I get a new gun. Look at the top coil of the springs. Is this normal? I have three Wolff springs on the way, anyway. I always change out used mag springs.





Serial is KLB1207 if anybody has a DOB. Here's the gun:




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Old 06-25-2020, 06:24 PM
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Never had a problem with removing/reinstalling the grips. My Hogue grip is sitting in a baggie somewhere in a closet.

Your mag spring is bent. You'll also notice the new ones being longer, which is normal. I'd pop for a new recoil spring also.
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Old 06-25-2020, 06:27 PM
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Never had a problem with removing/reinstalling the grips. My Hogue grip is sitting in a baggie somewhere in a closet.

Your mag spring is bent. You'll also notice the new ones being longer, which is normal. I'd pop for a new recoil spring also.
I never had a problem either. It's usually a bit of a deal, but never more than a minute or so. This time I was really having trouble.

Funny thing is the gun came with 3 mags, and all of them have the same bend. I know the new ones will be longer. I always order Wolff springs. And a recoil spring is on the way, too. I will change that and the firing pin spring, as well.
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Old 06-25-2020, 11:59 PM
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Based on my 457s, those springs are not right at all. The top loop should be straight, not bent up like that. Maybe someone decided to do a field expedient modification because the magazines weren't feeding reliably.

Like you, I replace the springs on all new to me magazines. I use the OEM springs when Midway or Brownells has them in stock.
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Old 06-26-2020, 12:06 AM
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Based on my 457s, those springs are not right at all. The top loop should be straight, not bent up like that. Maybe someone decided to do a field expedient modification because the magazines weren't feeding reliably.

Like you, I replace the springs on all new to me magazines. I use the OEM springs when Midway or Brownells has them in stock.
I loaded a mag up and chambered a round. Safety on and pointed in safe direction. Round chambered and I dropped the mag to clear the gun. A second loose round fell out of the magazine well, so when the one chambered another one popped free and was just sitting on top of the magazine. Itís just odd that all three mag springs have the same bend. But the new springs will be here Monday. I was gonna shoot it tomorrow but it seems destined for issues the way it is now so Iíll wait till I change out the springs.

I usually keep the used springs just to have but if the new ones are straight as they should be then I might just chuck the old mag springs.
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Old 06-26-2020, 12:09 AM
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That is a Wolff magazine spring & the angled up top coil is normal on them.

My picture is from years ago but you can see the tired S&W mag spring along side the new Wolff mag spring.

I believe the Wolff XP mag spring has one more turn to it.

.



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Old 06-26-2020, 06:20 AM
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Nice 4566! Congrats! Regards 18DAI
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Old 06-26-2020, 02:05 PM
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Got your PM, and I'm posting my thoughts and a couple pics here in the thread.

The factory 3rd gen .45 mag spring ought to have 14 coils. I've received factory springs which were wound in opposite directions at various times, FWIW. The same spring is used for the 6, 7 & 8rd .45 3rd gen mags.

The black plastic follower is the last/current revision, and we were always told in armorer classes that it will retrofit in all previous mags that used plastic followers and buttplates (in other words, not in the 645 mags with the metal followers and buttplates).

The "top" end of the spring (meaning as intended to be installed inside the mag body) has a smaller closed loop which is needed to lift the front of the follower for optimal feeding. I think I used to have some older springs which had more of a "D" shaped top loop instead of a round one. Also, sometimes I've seen the tail end of the small loop lifted higher than the rest of the loop's coil, and sometimes not. Guess it just depended on the vendor's batch production, or maybe minor revisions requested by the factory. They all worked in my own .45's over the years.



In this pic you can see the small "loop" part of the spring as it's normally positioned under the follower. Note how the follower profile angles down in front of it, so the front of the loop lifts the front of the follower under the nose of the round.



The factory springs are presently available at Midway, and are a buck less than the Wolff springs. As much as I really like and use Wolff mag springs, I prefer the factory springs for my 3rd gen .45 mags.
S&W 457 mag spring - MidwayUSA

I used to get a 26% armorer discount on factory parts when ordering directly from S&W, but nowadays I've found that I can get the springs faster ordering them from Midway (when they're in-stock) and the cost isn't that much higher, relatively speaking. Besides, now that the 3rd gen guns are considered "obsolete" by the factory, it seems they mostly periodically order new mag springs (and some other parts) from their vendors to provide to their customer companies still selling parts.
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Old 06-26-2020, 02:15 PM
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BTW, I forgot to mention that at various times S&W has used both the blackened steel buttplate inserts and black plastic buttplate inserts. The steel ones had the little crimped plate at the rear to thread onto the mag spring loop at the bottom, while the black plastic ones had a post insert on top (cross shaped, unlike the bottom round post to fit in side the buttplate hole) that simply snugged up inside the bottom of the bottom coil. One was impervious to rust.

Also, toward the end of their 3rd gen LE production I was seeing some occasional brand new .45 mags received, that had been assembled at the factory, with the mag springs incorrectly installed. The spring was sometimes reversed (upside down, as it were), and/or backwards inside the mag bodies. The .45 mag springs have a definite top/bottom and front/back orientation.
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Old 06-26-2020, 03:10 PM
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BTW, I forgot to mention that at various times S&W has used both the blackened steel buttplate inserts and black plastic buttplate inserts. The steel ones had the little crimped plate at the rear to thread onto the mag spring loop at the bottom, while the black plastic ones had a post insert on top (cross shaped, unlike the bottom round post to fit in side the buttplate hole) that simply snugged up inside the bottom of the bottom coil. One was impervious to rust.

Also, toward the end of their 3rd gen LE production I was seeing some occasional brand new .45 mags received, that had been assembled at the factory, with the mag springs incorrectly installed. The spring was sometimes reversed (upside down, as it were), and/or backwards inside the mag bodies. The .45 mag springs have a definite top/bottom and front/back orientation.
Thanks. I noticed that two of the butt plate inserts were the metal that were attached to the spring by the little loop on the plate, and one was the plastic that just sat in there. I know the round button piece must be facing down so that it can pop into the hole on the floor plate, but it fits either way front to back.

I'm sorry to bug you one last time, but do you have a picture of a disassembled magazine that shows orientation of everything? I know mine isn't upside down, and I can't see how it be be wrong front to back, but a picture is worth 1000 words.

Maybe I'll shoot it tomorrow morning the way it is now, and see how it functions. When the new springs come on Monday I'll throw them in and see how it functions again.

Did you get my message about the rounds sliding forward and out?

I just clicked on the Midway link. The factory and Wolff springs sure do look different. I see the upward tilt of the Wolff spring that isn't nearly as prominent as the factory.

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Old 06-26-2020, 03:30 PM
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Give me 5 minutes, as I'm uploading some new pics to post here ...
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Old 06-26-2020, 03:32 PM
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Give me 5 minutes, as I'm uploading some new pics to post here ...
Great! Thanks. I'm pretty anal about cleaning my guns and will clean my mags after every outing.
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Old 06-26-2020, 04:07 PM
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Okay, here are some pics of the 2 buttplate inserts.

In this pic I oriented inserts front/back with buttplates beside them for comparison. Also, the one on the left is right side up (cross-shaped post pointing up, as if ready to position under the bottom of the mag spring), and the one on the right is upside down (you can see the round post to fit inside the buttplate hole).

Notice that each has a narrower front end profile, to conform to the rounded front shape of the mag body (and flat rear for flat rear wall of mag body).

Also, note that the front lip is visible on the left insert. More on that in a moment.



Here's a pic with the steel insert located to the left of the plastic ones (oriented right side up, which means the buttplate post is on the bottom).



Here's a pic of the plastic (top) and steel (bottom) inserts, oriented so the front of both is on the left. Note the front lip that is intended to fit inside the mag body (and to keep the front edge of the insert from slipping forward, becoming caught between the bottom of the mag and the buttplate). Note how the plastic insert has a less obvious front lip, but that it's still there. Make sure the mag is assembled so the lip of either style of insert is wholly inside the bottom of the mag body.



Okay, it's not unusual for the top round to be displaced slightly forward under the slide's pick up rail after a round has been stripped and chambered. Especially as mag springs start to weaken.

In earlier .45 mag body designs it was more common to happen easily, before the wide pressed indentations were added to each side of the mag lips. Some older mags even had some small and short "cut" indentations toward the rear of the sides (similar to .40 mags) that put pressure against the case rims to help try and prevent forward displacement, but the longer/taller "pressed" lip indentations were the latest revision for the .45 mags (except for the CS45 mags, and some 6rd 945 mags, if I remember right, which had secondary indentations of a more vertical shape).

This top round displacement after loading can also be observed in 9/.40 mags, BTW. Sometimes the top round might be sticking so far forward (especially in a single stack 9mm mag loaded with long 147gr rounds) that the bullet nose catches on the top of the mag well, and pulls the round out of the mag as the mag is pulled out of the gun.

It's not common to hear of it actually becoming a problem during live-fire, though. The recoil forces and friction with the bottom of the slide usually bounce/push the top round back within the mag lips as the slide slams to the rear, so the top round is in position to be stripped and fed during cycling.

Here are some pics of a disassembled 7rd mag (4513TSW/457) with the parts oriented for direction (top/bottom & front/rear). An overall pic and one each for the top and bottom, to show the follower and insert (steel, in this case). Note in the follower pic you can see the front small loop sticking toward the front, and the rear of the top coil visible in the follower cutout in the sides.

It would become pretty obvious, by comparison, if the spring were upside down and/or backwards.

Hope this helps.



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Old 06-26-2020, 04:11 PM
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I made a couple corrections just now, so you might want to refresh the above post.
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Old 06-26-2020, 04:23 PM
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BTW, if you have to remove the 3rd gen grips enough to become familiar with the process, it's pretty simple. You do have to keep in mind keeping the side hooks oriented to catch the front of the grip frame windows, and not tweak/lift the sideplate at the front, keep the mainspring cup oriented so it remains in the grip backstrap's cup ... and make sure the top of the grip is fully forward under the rear of the frame (think tang).

It's a 1 minute off and 3 minute on process, give or take, taking your time and double checking you didn't let anything slip out of position.

Kind of a ... pull the front edges apart to clear the frame, but let them go inward to catch the front edges of the frame windows (or they get stuck on the outside of them ); slip the mainspring cup into place; rotate/"lift" the grip forward and upward, and forward and seat it into place, then drive the grip pin back in.

If the top of the grip isn't seated fully forward, you'll find out when you try to lower the safety lever, as it won't clear the top cutout on either side. The good news is that if it's just a little too far out of place to the rear, it can be quickly and easily corrected by grasping the grip in a normal grip and squeezing, as that will "push" the top of the grip forward to seat it.

Grip not fully forward at top after installation:

You can see how the grip is too far back at the rear, under the grip tang, and leaves too much of the front of the sideplate exposed.

Grip fully forward after squeezing it and seating it:



Sorry for the quality of the pics, but they're old and I've not had reason to make better ones.
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Old 06-26-2020, 04:24 PM
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Ok. Great pics. I had them oriented eight. Cross side facing up into the spring, flat edge of floor plate to back, lip towards the front. Should the lip be over the Mag body on the outside? I donít think so. If I do that the floor plate and butt plate can slide forward together. One of the metal plates doesnít even have the lip. Must have broken off at some point. But I figured it must stay inside the mag body.

Thanks very much fastbolt. Iím gonna shoot it a bit tomorrow and when the springs arrive Iíll change them out and shoot it again to test for function. I have a recoil spring and firing pin spring on the way, as well. I always change those out as well.

Yeah, the grip is always a bit of a deal to get off for me, but never like it was this time. Youíre right about the time, although I usually get them off in about 30 seconds and Iím in about 2-3 minutes. As I said, Iím fanatical about cleaning my guns so I used to take the grips off, but for the last few years I just donít use solvent in the frame to avoid making a mess. Just wipe it down with a clean rag and use compressed air after a wipe. But when I buy new they have to come off because of the nastiness I have found under there. The 4566 wasnít TOO bad but I just grabbed a 5946 that was an NYPD duty gun. It must have been a supervisor or detective gun because they generally didnít get hassled to clean the gun after a qualification and it honestly looked like the gun hadnít been cleaned in 15 years. Filthy top to bottom and in every crevice. Magazines too. It was nasty. You donít recommend removing the grips that often, do you?

I ordered a set of Hogue panel grips when I was struggling with the factory ones. I know theyíre fatter but at least I wonít have to deal with it.

The way I install the grips is to spread them to get them on the frame, slide them up and in while avoiding the side plate. The cup is already on the spring and as I push the grips in I am pressing down on the cop with a punch until it slides over the grip and snaps in. Usually takes me a few tries but this last time was frustrating.

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Old 06-26-2020, 04:31 PM
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Ok. Great pics. I had them oriented eight. Cross side facing up into the spring, flat edge of floor plate to back, lip towards the front. Should the lip be over the Mag body on the outside? I donít think so. If I do that the floor plate and butt plate can slide forward together.

Thanks very much fastbolt. Iím gonna shoot it a bit tomorrow and when the springs arrive Iíll change them out and shoot it again to test for function. I have a recoil spring and firing pin spring on the way, as well. I always change those out as well.
The front upward pointing lip/tab of the insert must always be on the INSIDE of the mag body. It keeps the insert properly positioned under the spring and helps keep the buttplate on the mag in the correct position.

FWIW, I've occasionally had to help someone disassemble their duty weapon 3rd gen mags after they'd incorrectly assembled them so a (steel) insert tab was stuck on the outside front of the mag body. That little extra thickness of metal caught between the bottom edge of the steel mag body and the inside floor of the mag buttplate could create some interesting extra tension when trying to pull the buttplate off the mag body.
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Old 06-26-2020, 04:34 PM
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I had to add something to a sentence above which I'd unintentionally left off (when my wife came in the room talking to me), so refresh the page if you just now read it. Sigh.
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Old 06-26-2020, 07:35 PM
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Well, I learned something today. I guess I can turn in for the night.

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Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37 View Post
That is a Wolff magazine spring & the angled up top coil is normal on them.

My picture is from years ago but you can see the tired S&W mag spring along side the new Wolff mag spring.

I believe the Wolff XP mag spring has one more turn to it.

.



.
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Old 06-26-2020, 07:59 PM
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I couldnít stop wondering so I went to my outdoor range. Took 110 of my 230 grain reloads. 8 of them were plated and the others were lead. Both round nose.

Fired mostly fine. One magazine had an issue but only that one time I used it. Other 3 times I used it no issues. One time the slide didnít fully go into battery. I ejected the round and re-seat it. Chambered that time. About three rounds later the round didnít enter the chamber. It was just beginning to enter when it hung up. Ejected it and tried again. Chambered and fired. Other two mags no issue.

Gun was accurate. At least as accurate as I am. Truthfully, I shoot my M&P .45 2.0 better. But I like the 4566 better. Just classier I guess.

So it might have been my reloads. I had issues with the lead not wanting to chamber in the M&P .45 last week. People here told me to seat them a tad more but Iím just trying to use them up at this point. They seated fine in my government 1911.

One thing I noticed is the trigger is ďclickyĒ. A pronounced click when itís fired in single action. Nothing in double.


The new springs are coming on Monday. Iíll put them in and head back to the range. See if thereís any issues. Just for giggles I loaded a couple of spent casings. Fed perfectly as I expected.

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Old 06-27-2020, 01:33 AM
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These Magazine Springs Wrong on 4566?  ***PICS ***  ***TEST FIRED*** These Magazine Springs Wrong on 4566?  ***PICS ***  ***TEST FIRED*** These Magazine Springs Wrong on 4566?  ***PICS ***  ***TEST FIRED*** These Magazine Springs Wrong on 4566?  ***PICS ***  ***TEST FIRED*** These Magazine Springs Wrong on 4566?  ***PICS ***  ***TEST FIRED***  
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Glad to hear.

BTW, don't worry if the occasional plastic buttplate insert doesn't "stick" and hold itself inside the bottom coil, especially if the "cross" post wears a bit, or the bottom coil of any particular spring is a bit wider than another. The cross post will still "center" within the bottom coil.

In some of my assorted .45 mags I simply position the insert so the cross post is inside the bottom wire coil and compress the spring, holding it down, and then install the buttplate.

Sent you a PM.
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