The FBI has to train lawyers, accountants, engineers and lots of other office type people in all sizes. A lot of these people come to the job from grad school, not from military or police backgrounds and only shoot because it's a employment requirement. So they get trained to the lowest common denominator. It's a lot easier to get a 9mm to fit everything from girly hands to gorilla mitts. It's also a lot easier with the 9 to get someone trained up to be a mediocre shot and then give them a gun that holds more bullets so that they have more chances to hit something. The FBI didn't go back to 9's because they found some magic bullet or reinvented the laws of physics. They went back because they found a round that's almost, could be, might be as good as something else and fits their logistical needs better than those other rounds. If you notice, the branches of the FBI that do more shooting and are more likely to actually get into a gun fight, like HRT, carry something other than 9mm. What will happen is that another Miami will take place and someone will take out some agents after absorbing 20 9mm hits and they will do the dance all over again. It's more about politics and logistics than finding the best gun and round and training program. In the end, the 9, 10, 45, 500 magnum all have about the same effect if the bullet placement is right. This has been the long way around of saying that the FBI (famous but incompetent), doesn't really have all the answers and using them as the standard is a fools errend.

I hardly know where to start.

About half of my new agent class was former police or military. This was in 1991, but when I got out in 2016 the ratio was about the same. (Even the famous “backflip discharge” agent from a couple of years ago was an Army veteran.) The “lawyers and accountants” thing hasn’t been true for decades, if it ever was. The requirement is at least a Bachelors degree and three years of responsible work experience.

In my last RA there were two former military, a former Sheriff’s Deputy, a former LAPD cop, a former uniformed USSS guy, and a former high school football coach. That coach could shoot, too.

The FBI used .40s for about 20 years. They were still on the POW list when I retired. New agents shoot about 10K rounds in the Academy and don’t graduate unless the qualify. Then agents qualify 4 times a year forever after, to the tune of about 1,000 rounds per year per Agent. I was a firearms instructor as an additional duty for 20 of my 25 years. I can count on one hand the number of agents who had trouble qualifying. (We shoot from 25, 15, 7, 5, and 3 yards, two hand, stong hand, weak hand). The “hard kicking .40” was not a problem for our dainty wrists.

SWAT and HRT both carry 9mms. The 1911’s are long gone.

The change to .40 was about one thing - money. After 9/11 all the dough went to upgrading computers and then hiring analysts to look at them. The ammo budget never changed, while ammo kept getting more expensive. It went from “take what you want for practice” to “well, maybe a box....”, to “nope, we barely have enough to qualify”, to handing out a box at a time and locking the extra in the Suburban during quals. 9 is cheaper than .40, even when you buy by the boxcar load.

The FBI doesn’t issue ammo to other agencies or departments. The taxpayer foots the bill for all the hard work the ammo gurus do, so it is made available to all. Everyone is free to use what they like.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

The company I work for is the largest FFL in the SE. We buy entire LE trade in inventory. They’re getting rid of 40’s, & we’re not selling many. About 3 years ago, we bought every Walther P99c they had, as it was being discontinued, & we were selling them for $150 less than anybody else. After a year, all the 9mm’s were gone, but there’s still plenty of 40’s. Nobody wants 40 now, & they just don’t sell. Sure, some people love 40, but most prefer the 9. I see this every day. GARY

Don’t own a .40

Never shot a .40

Don’t feel like I’m missing out at all.


YMMV

It’s a buyers market for the .40s. Has been for a while. There really is nothing wrong with it and actually has some good points.
It’s smack in the middle of 9mm and .45 and shares some qualities of each.
Some like it, some don’t and some are ambivalent towards it.
I’m more in the latter group. I like the .45 but I also like the size, capacity, performance and PRICE of many of the .40s
So my preference as far as a, let’s say Glock would be G30-G27-G26 since they are almost identical in size.

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“Look life in its iron face”

Whooeee! Some pretty strong opinions and well-crafted replies.
I've never been a .40 guy. The department I worked 35 years with never adopted that caliber in my time there. Only .38, 9, and 45 were ever authorized for the regular officers, although 45 GAP made an appearance for a few years but eventually fell out of favor. I went to the first series of semi-auto transition classes in 1989, when 9 was the only choice. I was happy just to have an excuse to buy more guns.
Over the years, I stuck with what the department experts at the range selected. As the budget got squeezed and caliber choices were narrowed, they indirectly indicated that since 9 was cheaper than 40, the decision was made to stick with it and only have 45 ACP as an alternative. Since they supplied ammunition and had approval authority of what guns we carried on or off-duty, I didn't upset the apple cart.
In retirement, I still use 38, 9 and 45, although I picked up a couple 44 Specials for fun. Add in the 5.56, 300BLK, .22, 12 and 20 gauge, and my ammo bunker has more than enough variety for my taste. I don't diss the .40, just don't see the need at this point in my life.
Y'all have a good weekend.

I find myself skeptical of bullet technology and whether or not it's as much advanced as marketing efforts make it out to be, 9mm or otherwise.

Sounds to me like... You don't know what you're missing.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

It's easier to get people qualified with a 9MM rather than a 40 S&W or larger caliber. Less recoil.

So true. I qualified for concealed carry with a G26, but EDC with either a G27, or a G29...and sometimes a 642-1

I can only relate my own experiences with the .40 S&W.
Back in the early 90s when it was introduced, I'm ashamed to say I fell for all the hype hook, line and sinker. "45 power, 9mm capacity!" So I bought a 4006. Most frustrating gun I've ever owned. Try as I might I just couldn't shoot it any where near as well as a 9mm or a .45acp. I tried changing grip, stance etc and so on. Even tried shooting it off the bench with solid support.Nope all I got was clusters rather than groups.
I tried every factory load and every combination of bullets, powder and primers I could find. Still nope. My 9s and 45s could shoot rings around this thing any day of the week.
Two years I fought this gun! Nope, nadda, zip. Nothing helped. BTW: I found the recoil a little sharp, but quite manageable. There was just something about this gun and cartridge that wasn't compatible with me.
So after two years of aggravation, wasted time and money, I decided to just sell it. It was then I discovered I couldn't hardly give it away. Nobody wanted it.And this was in the 90s when the .40 was supposed to be hot! After about another year of trying to dump it, I finally managed to trade it off to a gun shop at a considerable loss. But I didn't care, I was just glad to be rid of the thing.
A few years ago I was set up at a gun show with a friend. A guy came around looking to sell a Beretta 96 at a very low price. I told him that I had no interest in a .40 cal. We replied "Yeah, that's what everybody is telling me today."
Since then, I had the opportunity to shoot several .40s that belonged to other people. My opinion of the cartridge hasn't changed. I never have and never will own another .40 S&W.

That's a shame, I just recently bought a California Highway Patrol 4006TSW and I absolutely love it. It's a tank of a gun, overbuilt to the extreme, but all that weight definitely tames the recoil of the .40 S&W cartridge, and this is coming from a guy who doesn't flinch from shooting the polymer-framed 24oz SW40VE.

I don't know how well it groups yet seeing as I've only had it since May, but from what I've heard the TSW Models have better accuracy than the standard 4006, and all the videos I've seen of other folks shooting them, it seems like it will most likely be more accurate than I am.

It's a shame that you gave up on the cartridge based on one gun that was the very first firearm chambered in the cartridge, but I can't blame you for being soured by the experience, especially with all the crazy hype.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

As we say in my business, facts and data will set you free:

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...llistic-tests/

Should the .40 be shelved? Make your decision based on your shooting ability, capacity, expansion, and penetration.

I changed the type of ammo I carry (not caliber) after I studied the relative data.

The slow motion videos are pretty cool too.

I wish that more folks would do ammo tests with one of those anatomically correct Ballistics Gel torsos they use to test knives in Forged in Fire or Cold Steel's Advertisements.

It would be a more realistic means of testing just how much of a difference a larger diameter bullet actually makes when it comes to the probability of hitting vital organs with less-than-perfect aim/impact, not to mention the effects of bigger, heavier bullets on bones, which tends to be more dramatic, as any hunter can attest to.
Besides, it would be just plain cool to see. Seriously, why doesn't anyone do this already?

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

Doesn't sound like there is that much disdain for the .40 at all.


Welll, except for that among gun writers and youtube experts.

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America First

My 16.8 oz. Kahr CW40 will out shoot my 9mm. Shield all day long. Recoil is offset by a good design. 100 rounds at the range is nothing. The only drawback is it's capacity but I carry two extra mags. It does hold one more round than the Colt Cobra I carried for years and I never felt I was handicapped carrying it.

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LIVE FROM THE DAWGHOUSE

The Glock 22 & 23 beat the 4006 by one week.

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Retired Career Security Guard

Yep, corporate espionage and general Glock d’baggery. Definitely an interesting fact from the past. This and other ahem “shrewd” dealings are detailed well in the recent book Glock: The Rise of America’s Gun by Paul M. Barrett. It’s an interesting read.

A couple of years ago I bought my first .40, and my first 3rd Gen., a 4006 that has become one of my favorite pistols.

I bashed the .40 for years, and had to talk myself into buying it. I already reloaded the 10mm, so I had everything I needed in that regard (my dies load both), and that was a selling point for me.

I've found the 4006 to be accurate and reliable, and it has a reasonable amount of power. I haven't found the "snappy" recoil people seem to dislike to be of any concern.

I'll bet that a lot of die-hard .44 Magnum fans (not counting Elmer!) bashed the .41 when it came out.

I never wanted a 40 cal because of all the Kabooms showing up on the net. All the complaints of snappy recoil, Glock Bulge, inaccurate, etc. I already had plenty of 9s and a few 45s, so I didn't see the need.

Looking for something different and wanting to trade off one of my older 9s, I traded into a new SD40VE-my very first 40. I was expecting it to be horrible to shoot/control. I was wrong. It is a little more snappy than a 9, but not as much as others would have you believe. I've had 6 total 40s and still have 5. I sold the Glock 22 I picked up to a guy who wanted it more than me. I shot it as well as I do the Glock 17 I still have. My time/accuracy was near identical in local competition. All my other 40s are S&W.

IMO, reloading 40 requires 1 add'l. step; I use the Lee Bulge Buster after de-priming and wet tumbling. This insures no issues after reloading (for me). I also inspect my brass very carefully before loading and anything with a severe bulge goes into the recycle can. I've never had an issue with any ammo, through any of my 40 handguns, but then I don't go beyond factory recommended specs. :-)

What he said

It really is funny looking back just how much nonsense I used to see posted about .40 S&W...

• The cases are weak and are prone to blow-outs!
• It's just a wimpy 10mm load, real men carry 10mm!
• It tears guns apart!
• It's super duper expensive!
• It's a solution in search of a problem!
• It's inaccurate!

It was always unilateral statements which completely ignore any benefits or trade-offs too, and often times it was completely contradictory.

For example, I used to think that 9mm Fanboys were the worst, but in hindsight, 10mm Fanboys are so much worse because they are almost always hypocritical in their hatred of .40 S&W, calling out weaknesses that apply to both cartridges as negatives for the .40 S&W like how .40 S&W had a weak case that was prone to blow-outs, but when it came to 10mm Auto, bulged cases and blow-outs were due to inadequate chamber support.
However, by far the worst thing is when 10mm Fanboys do post drive-by insults about ".40 Short & Wimpy" complete with a post of their "powerful" 10mm Grizzly-Slayer sitting amongst boxes which are clearly labeled with stats like "180gr -- 1000fps" meaning they're shooting 10mm FBI/10mm Lite Loads which are equal to .40 S&W, yet cost significantly more. But it generally isn't worth calling them out for it because they are always so defensive about it, (which strikes me as odd that someone so boastful would be so sensitive towards criticism) that their reply will be inflammatory, even if all you did was point out that the ammo in the picture they posted was no more powerful than .40 S&W.

Don't even get me started on the ridiculous scapegoating of the .40 S&W being the sole reason why 10mm Auto never really achieved mainstream popularity.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

Me thinks you will be waiting a llllooooonnnngggg time for a Gen 5 anything-but-9.

Youse thinks wrong, Glock just announced that a G23 Gen 5 is coming out soon as the Gen 4 Series is being discontinued.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

I had to leave the PD for medical reasons before the 40 phase. I also operated a commercial bullet casting business with Magma casting machines. I never invested in the mold sets for 40.

It seems to me that the 40 is a good round but it does/did operate at higher chamber pressure than other popular rounds. I think this is an unfair comparison as other calibers have had literally generations of powder and load development. There's no reason that the 40 wouldn't evolve similarly.

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NRA LIFE
Reserve Officer 9yrs

Well... kind of on the pressure but not really. Same pressure as 9mm and 357 Mag. Slightly less pressure than .44 Mag and 10mm and less than the 357 Sig to which it “parents.” A lot less than .327 Federal Mag.

Certainly more pressure than sedate rounds like .380, .38 Special and .45 ACP.

Nope, .40 S&W runs at the exact same peak operational pressures at Standard Pressure 9mm Luger -- 35,000psi. So as a matter of fact, 9mm Luger is actually capable of higher pressure in +P loads than .40 S&W.

The trick with .40 S&W is that it doesn't require any advances because it was already designed to meet FBI Specifications right from the beginning, ergo ammo companies have no insensitive to attempt to improve upon it because it is already operating at peak performance as per FBI Specifications.
Notice that there isn't a .40 S&W +P, because it doesn't need any more power than it already has, and if it did, then the FBI probably would have stuck with 10mm Auto, or otherwise at the very least .40 S&W would have been designed with a bit more case capacity and still it could have maintaind the same basic OAL as 9mm Luger.

That's just one of the many funny things about .40 S&W, haters love to paint it as a cartridge which never served any practical purpose, and that the FBI was only using the 9mm Luger as a scapegoat for the casualties of the Miami Shootout, then turn around and say that in modern loads 9mm are just as good as .40 S&W, contradicting their previous statement in the process. Ergo, even the haters know that the .40 S&W is the gold standard of Law Enforcement cartridges that it took decades for 9mm Luger to catch up to in terms of performance, and according to most folks in the LE industry only replaced .40 S&W for the sake of saving money in the long term.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.