Hello all - I have a 4516-1 that I'm having some difficulties with. I took it to the range today and had 2 failure to feeds where the round seemed to just hang up at the top of the magazine. This happened on 2 different magazines and I have replaced the magazine spring on both magazines in an attempt to correct this issue. I have also replaced the recoil spring. One magazine has the "use only with yellow follower" on it and the other one does not.

The second issue is that with one magazine, the 4516-1 seems to sometimes operate in "slow motion". It functions, but I can tell that it is cycling much slower than normal. I took the spring replacement actions as described above to correct, but am still having the issue.

Any ideas on how to correct? I'm going to take it down later today for cleaning and will inspect it closely for any issues I can find, but any suggestions are appreciated.

One more question: for the magazine marked yellow follower only can I replace it with a new black follower? My understanding is that the black follower is the latest and greatest, but I'm not sure if it's ok to put the black follower on a magazine marked for "yellow follower only". Thanks!

Single recoil spring? Did you replace it with an OEM or Wolfe spring? You might consider contacting member BMCM and convert it to the dual recoil spring arrangement. That is what the factory did, back in the day, with problematic 4516-1s. They installed the skinny guide rod and dual springs.

The Wolfe spring, evidently is problematic. Many folks who had 4516-1s that ran well, experienced feeding issues after using the Wolfe single spring replacement. My oldtimers is acting up, so I dont recall what the problem with the Wolfe is......overall length?.....weight? Hopefully someone will be along with details. Anyways, thedual recoil spring system cured their issues.

I would also make sure the gun is sufficiently lubed. With grease.

Yes, you can replace the yellow follower with the black. They go into all the 7 round mags and function fine. On an older mag like that, you may have some feed lip spreading/deformation which could cause you feed issues as well.

Nice gun! Good luck getting the issue resolved. It shouldn't be difficult or expensive. Well worth it too. That is a very accurate little 45. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

I don't recall if it was a Wolff or OEM spring, but it does have the larger diameter guide rod with a single spring. And it is lubed and greased as recommended by BMCM in another thread.

I examined it closely after field stripping for cleaning. Here's some pics of the feed ramp - looks like a little rough on the edge to me.

Attached Images

	4516 barrel 2.jpg (24.7 KB, 80 views)
	4516 barrel.jpg (19.3 KB, 75 views)

Oddly enough, I've been having the same issue with a new-to-me 4516-3, had about 5 FTF's over 2 boxes of ammo at the range. Brand new Sprinco recoil springs, totally cleaned and freshly lubed beforehand.

I'm going to break it down again and take a close look at all the surfaces, see if anything might be causing it to get hung up. I stupidly did not pay attention to which mag was in when it happened, so that will be scrutinized on my next range trip. I also often use synthetic oil on my steel-framed guns, but taking 18DAI's suggestion, I'll switch it over to grease and see if that helps.

I have a 4516-1 which had all of it's springs replaced with Wolff's. It runs fine with them. All my handloads are +P.

The only issue I'm aware of on Wolff's recoil spring for the 4516-1 is with their 21# (& 23#) spring. Only one end is closed on them. The 19#, & lower, are closed on each end.

I've never had a fresh factory recoil spring for it to test but I believe the original recoil springs are supposed to be 16#. I run a 19#.

I've had issues with some of Wolff's full frame size recoil springs being too long & the slide would stop/bottom-out on the spring, rather than the frame abutment, & required trimming.

The original 4516 mag springs (~12 coils) were shorter than the 4566/4506's (~14 coils) but now the same one is used for all (4516/4566/4506) of them (#262600000).

Wolff's mag spring, for all frames, only has (~12) coils but's the same length as the current S&W mag spring.

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Waiting for the break of day

Feeding failures can be from sharp edges on the feed ramp, but can also be the result of a weak recoil spring, weak magazine spring or damaged magazine, sharp edge on the bottom of the extractor or too much extractor tension. If you have one magazine that is sluggish, even after replacing the spring, I'd look at the follower and magazine body for debris and/or damage.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

Why do I get the impression the 4516 series pistols were the lemons of the S&W Third gen series? Seems every time I open up the forum there's a new post of one having issues. I have a 4536 and it needed some TLC, the extractor sheared and the firing pin safety detent gouged. Both were easy to replace and its fixed and working well, but is this design inherently flawed?

Lemons? No, but even with the 1911 style pistol, the shorter the slide and barrel, the more finicky they become in terms of reliability. It all has to do with slide velocity and the angle of the barrel when unlocked.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

As with any compact 45, user error is usually a factor in "malfunctions".

I recall only two 4516 related problem posts in the last few months. And IIRC BOTH of those were user related problems - NOT hardware problems.

A tight grip and locked wrist will usually correct a "malfuntioning" compact 45. But, ammo and mag issues do crop up with continued use.

I was shooting some S&B 230 grain ball in an otherwise reliable compact 45 a few months back. The OAL of the rounds was varied. On the ones that were too long, I had FTF issues. Wasn't me or the gun. It was the cheap ammo.

I have always found the 4516 model pistols to be superbly reliable. I carried them on and off duty for years. With no issues. But, I have been shooting compact 45 pistols for over two decades too. YMMV Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Good points 18DAI, I was shooting Fiocchi 230g FMJ at the time and will have to take a look at the boxes I have left. Although, I used the same ammo in my 4513TSW and 457 during the same range session and had no issues with either of those pistols, which would also rule out any grip issues.

Aside from the FTF's I had with her, the 4516-3 is a real sweetheart, great trigger and more accurate than I am. Since I finally made an IWB holster for my 457, I've been carrying nothing but 45ACP this Summer, and want to get my 4516-3 in the rotation!

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I'm going to replace the followers in those 2 magazines and see if that fixes my issue. If not, I'll try another recoil spring with a little extra power like the 19# spring BlueDot37 shows.

I have a 4513 TSW early model as well, and have not had any issues at all with it.

Some years back, i did an extended test on a LNIB 4516 no dash. I posted my results over a two or three year period here.

During that test I spoke to a couple of people who worked at S&W during the 4516s developement and initial production. I recall one gentleman who told me he took a "handful" of new 4516s and several cases of ammo, as well as two buckets of water, to the range in Springfield.

He would shoot the 4516 till it was too hot to hold and then stick it in a bucket of water to cool down while he fired the next example. He reported no malfunctions in several cases of ammo fired. None. Which pretty much mirrored my results with the 4516 no dash.

Back in the day, the 4516 no dash was maligned as unreliable. According to another former employee of S&W, the reason the 4516 no dash production was suspended after only 5K pistols produced was because of some nervous engineers, who didn't like how close the slide came to closing on ejected casings in high speed cine film.

So, they went back to the boards and came up with the thicker, heavier 4516-1. And they screwed up by replacing the ultra reliable dual recoil spring assembly with a single recoil spring. And then there WERE PROBLEMS!

Several people I interviewed told me that the 4516-1s that had feed issues and were returned to the factory for warranty work, came back with the skinny guide rod, a washer in the dustcover - to fit the skinny guide rod - and the dual recoil springs. And they reported the guns ran fine after those changes.

The later 4516-2 and LE Special order 4516 "dash 3" both came from the factory with the dual recoil spring set up of the original 4516 no dash. Go figure. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

I finally made it back to the range with my 4516-1, so here's an update. I replaced the followers on the 2 magazines that were giving me issues and tried those first. Before arriving at the range, I marked each magazine with a small piece of different colored electrical tape.

Red rebuilt magazine - failure to feed the last round on the first use.
Blue rebuilt magazine - slow cycle x2, 1 failure to feed 3rd round.
White magazine - no feed issues at all, but did fail to lock slide when empty 1 time.
Black magazine - no issues at all.

I fired about 75 rounds through the 4516-1, taking my time and recording any issues after each magazine fired. The 2 failures to feed had the round partially inserted into the chamber, but not all of the way. I'm still not sure if I just have a magazine issue with a couple of the magazines or with the actual firearm.

I am thinking it could be the extractor is preventing the rim from smoothly sliding up the breech face or the magazine feed lips are releasing the cartridge too late. One other thing, the jams only occur with your rebuilt magazines, did you install new springs in those two mags and put them in in the correct orientation?

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

Yes, I was careful to note the orientation of the magazine springs.

Did you change the recoil spring?

What ammo are you shooting?

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Waiting for the break of day

I did change the recoil spring, but it is a standard power spring. The ammo is Fiocchi 230 grain FMJ.

I may try the problem magazines in my 4513 TSW to see if they cause the same problems.

I would try another ammo too. I have had otherwise totally reliable 45s balk when running Fiocchi 230 ball (I bought a bunch when it was really cheap!). And IIRC two of the guns exhibited failures to go into battery.

The OAL on some of the rounds is a little long. Try Federal or even WWB. You may have better results.

I would not think its an extractor problem as there are a couple of your mags that run the gun with no problems. If the extractor was out of spec, you should see problems using all your mags.

Likely a weak mag spring in a mag combined with the use of Fiocchi. My guess. Good luck! Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change