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Old 07-25-2020, 09:54 PM
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Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA.  
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Cool Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA.













Upon reading the article. It is clear that even in 1986, Col. Cooper was confused on the purpose of a DA/SA gun. It is not and never intended to be carried with a safety engaged. The safety is a decocker, something his beloved CZ-75 does not have and was a danger until B variants were made since a slip of the hammer while manually decocking the gun meant it could go off.

The entire mindset behind a gun like the Model 645 is that the gun is carried with the safety off and hammer down. The DA pull makes it better for the shooter to bring the gun into action. Something that famed German Gunsmity and Designer, L.W. Seecamp learned in WWII.

I respect Col. Cooper and I am a fan of the 1911. But even then he was outdated.

Oh well, enjoy the blast from the past.

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Old 07-25-2020, 10:17 PM
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Thx for posting this. Brought back some memories.
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Old 07-25-2020, 10:26 PM
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Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA.  
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In his writings and in person he was "full of himself". Believing on his ideas mattered.
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Old 07-25-2020, 10:31 PM
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Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA.  
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How refreshing to read somebody's unabashed perspective without feeling as if they need to please everybody! Col. Cooper always was a good and honest writer. Personally I think he was too hard on the 645, but I sure love his style!
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Old 07-25-2020, 10:38 PM
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Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA.  
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Cooperism at itís best!
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Old 07-25-2020, 11:16 PM
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Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA.  
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Frankly, I've never understood why so many folks are so enamored with Jeff Cooper because just about everything I have ever had the misfortune of reading by the guy gave me a distinctly negative impression of him. Jeff Cooper has always struck me as arrogant, condescending, disrespectful, and often times ignorant.

That being said, my exposure to the works of Jeff Cooper is by no means extensive, and there are a lot of folks in the world who have extremely low self-confidence, thus they are easily impressed by swagger over actual virtues. Such people have a terrible habit of only showcasing the unflattering aspects of anyone in the public eye, so it's all too easy to get the wrong idea of someone when so many people only ever bother to focus on the very worst aspects of someone's personality.
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Old 07-25-2020, 11:53 PM
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Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA.  
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That’s a crazy article! I knew that Manny Mansfield of Lucky Gunner fame was a satire of fudds, but I didn’t know it was specifically Jeff Cooper.

I’ll just leave this here...
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/r...ocket-pistols/
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Old 07-26-2020, 04:31 AM
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Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA.  
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The sidebar article mentions Tom Campbell's prototype "45 SuperGun" is virtually identical to the 745. Really?

.



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Old 07-26-2020, 04:48 AM
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Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA.  
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I love reading old gun reviews. While I respect the wisdom of Col. Cooper, it seems he pretty much disliked any pistol that was not a 1911. Although, I find it interesting he was a fan of CZ-75.

For all you 645 owners, is the DA trigger better than Beretta 92? It is funny Col. Cooper critizes the Beretta, as I find the 92 has one of the better DA triggers on a pistol, at least in the FS configuration.
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Old 07-26-2020, 06:37 AM
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Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA.  
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It was nice to see a review written that wasn't just an advertisement for the gun.
That being said, that poor pistol was doomed from the outset, due to it's operating mechanism.
I am of the opinion that the DA auto is the ideal system for Law Enforcement. It's not easy to "accidentally" make my DA Smiths discharge in the DA mode. After the first round is intentionally fired, most of the SA triggers are pretty decent.
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Old 07-26-2020, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCantu357 View Post
I love reading old gun reviews. While I respect the wisdom of Col. Cooper, it seems he pretty much disliked any pistol that was not a 1911. Although, I find it interesting he was a fan of CZ-75.

For all you 645 owners, is the DA trigger better than Beretta 92? It is funny Col. Cooper critizes the Beretta, as I find the 92 has one of the better DA triggers on a pistol, at least in the FS configuration.
He was not a fan of DA/SA semiautos at all. I had a pretty good idea of how the review was going to.go before I even read it.

If you were Smith&Wesson at that time, Cooper is not the guy you want reviewing your new DA semiauto.
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Old 07-26-2020, 08:20 AM
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Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA.  
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I remember reading that article, I bought that copy of American Handgunner at the Winn-Dixie Supermarket where I was employed. Those were fun days. Anyway, Colonel Cooper did not whitewash his reviews and he was not a fan of TDA pistols with the exception of the CZ-75, but mostly because it could be carried cocked and locked.
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Old 07-26-2020, 08:30 AM
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Thanks for posting that! It dates from just before I "discovered' American Handgunner, so I never saw that one. I probably started reading it around 1988 or so.
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Old 07-26-2020, 08:31 AM
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To me the biggest issue on that pistol is... Accuracy was nothing to write home about. Fine for "center of mass" at 25 yards, but that's it.
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Old 07-26-2020, 09:18 AM
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Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA.  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishwishin View Post
How refreshing to read somebody's unabashed perspective without feeling as if they need to please everybody! Col. Cooper always was a good and honest writer. Personally I think he was too hard on the 645, but I sure love his style!
Mike Seeklanders on American Warrior Society podcasts a few years ago did an interview with Ken Hackathorn. Hackathorn was talking about his early days with Cooper at Gunsite. Cooper hated everything that wasnít a 1911, except the CZ-75; a gun chambered in 9mm. A Cartridge Copper always claimed he hated.

Ken said woe be upon you if you showed up with a Hi Power or *gasp* a wheel gun. Also went on to talk about that Yaqui holster Cooper loved to always carry. He basically stated thatMilt Sparks absolutely hated to make it but did so just for the Cooper.

Cooper wasnít always right about some things and I did appreciated his politics and style of writing. But he was outdated . Hell, in 1975, he claimed the Min-14 was superior tot he Colt SP1 Rifle and Carbine.
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Old 07-26-2020, 09:20 AM
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Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA.  
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To me the biggest issue on that pistol is... Accuracy was nothing to write home about. Fine for "center of mass" at 25 yards, but that's it.
And honestly, that's what its intended role was. It was to be a police duty gun with the ability to function properly and hit center of mass. Shoot a rattle trap mil-spec 1911 and it will not be the accurized and tuned 1911s you see coming out of the ASU or some high end custom smith's shop.
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Old 07-26-2020, 09:53 AM
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Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA.  
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And honestly, that's what its intended role was. It was to be a police duty gun with the ability to function properly and hit center of mass. Shoot a rattle trap mil-spec 1911 and it will not be the accurized and tuned 1911s you see coming out of the ASU or some high end custom smith's shop.
But the truth is you can to that with the rattle trap 1911. Mine can do it(Ithaca Remington Rand mixer in Augusta) and it will not miss a beat.

As for the Double action "thing", it seems to be a "solution in search of a problem". This has nothing to do do with the merits and "ego" of Jeff Cooper. Just my personall view.

I'm not much into "gurus".

Edit. Just so you know. My "service pistol" was a Walther P.38.
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Old 07-26-2020, 09:56 AM
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Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA. Col. Jeff Cooper reviews the S&W Model 645 .45 ACP DA/SA.  
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The entire mindset behind a gun like the Model 645 is that the gun is carried with the safety off and hammer down.
FWIW, these guns were often carried with the safety engaged by law enforcement agencies as an additional defense to disarm attempts by suspects.
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Old 07-26-2020, 10:20 AM
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I had the very good fortune to be trained by Col Cooper.

Over the years, Iíve found his views to be the best guide to guns and gun handling available.
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Old 07-26-2020, 10:34 AM
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Frankly, I've never understood why so many folks are so enamored with Jeff Cooper because just about everything I have ever had the misfortune of reading by the guy gave me a distinctly negative impression of him. Jeff Cooper has always struck me as arrogant, condescending, disrespectful, and often times ignorant.

...
He wasn't always like that. I bought a bunch of really old Guns & Ammo magazines and found his articles very insightful, respectful, and detailed. He even spoke of the 9mm without scorn or derision!

Unfortunately, they were also really long and scholarly. My guess is that as time went on the editors said
"Jeff, you gotta spice up your articles, nobody reads 'em!"
So he became a lot more opinionated and curmudgeonly.

Over time, he developed a cult following. You couldn't go to a gun show without running into a dozen or more wannabe Jeff Coopers telling you that anything besides the .45 ACP M1911 was useless in a gun fight. Like they would know.

So "stardom" definitely changed his writings and his persona.

I think he was also greatly influenced by the weapons in use during his formative years as a Marine. Not only did he come to think the M1911 was the best pistol ever designed, the M1 / M14 was the best rifle ever. I wouldn't be surprised if he thought the Jeep was head and shoulders above the HumVee. I think a lot of us are guilty of seeing our long lost youth through rose colored glasses, harking back to a time when everything was fresh and new, when we were young and vigorous, etc. (OK, enough remote psychoanalysis!)

He really did come to relish the adulation he got from the role of the Gun Guru, to the point he became a caricature of himself.
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Old 07-26-2020, 01:07 PM
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You know, I always sort of wondered if Jeff Cooper was a persona when it came to his writing, because his opinions are often times so heavy-handed that it he came across like he was playing a role rather than actually being himself, and intentionally pushing the envelope to grab the attention of readers.

As much as I generally dislike sensationalism, it's at least better than him being a legitimately arrogant and rude person.
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Old 07-26-2020, 01:52 PM
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Very perceptive post, Forte Smitten Wesson. He was an intelligent man. I often wondered if he was having fun with the fame and notoriety some of his bombast produced.

I think, for what it's worth, as time went on, he really did become that person. As one observer said
"Jeff Cooper doesn't advance logical arguments, he makes pronouncements."
If he believed, it was true. When he referenced himself, it was always first person plural, the "Royal We".

In his last years, when he was too old and infirm to conduct gunsite classes himself, he would often bust in on a class, unscheduled and unannounced, and drone on for a hour or so about whatever was on his mind. It's actually kind of sad.
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Old 07-26-2020, 03:46 PM
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I read and admired Cooper's earliest writings. He was willing to stand up the newfangled what ever against his beloved 1911 in competition. But there is more to life or duty than just competition. I happily carried my 645 and would tomorrow.

Even his pronouncement couldn't save the Bren Ten.
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Old 07-26-2020, 04:29 PM
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Col. Cooper did more to advance the understanding of personal defense than any other one person, and likely more than most. He also did more for firearm handling than most, if not all. My academy firearms staff were ALL Gunsite range masters, and we benefitted from that second hand influence.

He was somewhat of an elitist, a reflection of the time in which he grew up and developed as a Marine officer. He had a graduate degree as I recall, I think a Master's in history, at a time when relatively few did. While there are really savvy people who advocate the DA/SA pistol as a police sidearm (our member Nyeti in his professional life as a cop and trainer being a good example thereof, and he makes really good arguments for the position) the main problem in Cooper's day was that most cop administrators even then (and more so now) were not at all firearms savvy. They were fearful hoplophobes whose own skills were well below any objective standard, and who were intellectually subpar with regard to firearms and a lot of use of force issues. Cooper and his acolytes took them on because the main impetus for the DA/SA ignorance based fear, not sound analysis.

My agency was only able to go to auto-pistols because the FBI did, and the first was the 1076. It was fragile at best. You may not recall, but the FBI had some serious problems with theirs. While mine worked fine most of the time, it ate an extractor at roughly 600 rounds and was a bear to repair - Smith no longer supported them. The Sig style decocker was a blessing, especially for me as I am left handed. Their successor was the 4566, a pig for which there was not nearly enough lipstick. I never had any trouble with mine, but I saw far too many of them have fatal malfunctions (not correctable with an immediate action drill, but requiring a gunsmith) on the range, including some that failed spectacularly right out of the box. (I never had a problem with the DA/SA transition and considered it overblown, but I was also not a competitive level shooter - I only cared about self-defense use.) The slide mounted decocker/safety is and was a complete disaster, and I cannot understand how any savvy and responsible agency can allow them as they are counterintuitive and a staggering pain except for those with relatively large hands.

You had to be there and actively engaged in the serious firearms/LE field to have the historical perspective to see this. To be even handed, our first issue of Glock 21s was flawed; the ambi mag release was awful and as I recall all of the frames ended up being replaced as a result. I had carried the optional USP and then a 1911, so I missed that debacle, and did not go to the G21 until after that issue was resolved.
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Old 07-26-2020, 05:55 PM
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Well I hope Doug M is at least partly wrong, since I just picked up an unfired 4566!

As far as Cooper, over 20 years ago I took a SD class and everyone said "ditch the Sig and get a 1911." I bought a used Springfield 1911. Stove-piped, but SA had it back to me in less than a week and it's been flawless since, free of charge.

Since then, I've owned just about every variation of pistol one can buy, some as recently as last week, but can't say any handle better than the 1911. Shootability of the 1911 is like no other, for me. The grip size is about perfect for me. Doublestack 9mms are too fat, though I'm warming up to my 6946. I actually owned a 645 long ago, sold it because it was just too big for anything I needed it for. Then, a few years ago, bought another 645, I guess to to prove it to myself??? Since sold it. Just can't let it go though, so I recently grabbed a 4566 - still need to take that one for a drive.

I guess, for me, the 1911 isn't perfect for every CCW scenario, so I continue to seek nirvana.
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Old 07-26-2020, 08:04 PM
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The 1911 is a fantastic firearm, if it wasn't then it wouldn't have remained popular to this very day, especially abroad where it doesn't have any sense of patriotism attached to it.
However, the 1911 is not an ideal carry pistol and hasn't ever been so, (hence the persistent pursuit of shrinking the 1911 down smaller and smaller) nor was it ever bar none the best fighting handgun ever produced, otherwise it would have received the same widespread (i.e. international) adoption as other pistols which were introduced before and after it like the Luger C96, P08, P38, Hi-Power, etc. And before anyone makes any silly comments about sissy Europeans being unwilling to adopt or especially incapable of handling the mighty .45 ACP, there were a variety of 1911 clones and derivatives chambered in smaller cartridges which didn't catch on any better than the standard .45 1911.

So yeah, try not to flame me too hard, I love the 1911, it is a fantastic pistol with design elements which were truly revolutionary, iconic, and influential, but Jeff Cooper's arbitrary assertions of the pistols objective superiority are just that, based entirely upon his own preferences, experience, and opinions rather than tangible fact. Yes, he knew his stuff when it came to firearms training, but said training was built upon the training which he had received in the military, so obviously his opinions were slanted in favor of what he already knew and was proficient with. Furthermore, lets just put into perspective here that Jeff Cooper was really pushing for the 10mm Auto cartridge and the Bren Ten, which he believed were superior to the 1911 and .45 ACP which he favored so, yet 10mm never obtained anywhere near the popularity of the .45 ACP and the Bren Ten went on to be nothing more than a footnote in history which only managed to achieve any mainstream notoriety by appearing in Miami Vice for a single season before the company went backrupt and production ceased. Sure, the Bren Ten still has it's admirers, but it's basically the firearms equivalent of the DeLorean DMC, an extremely stylish design with a big name and lots of hype behind it that ultimately went nowhere, and while there have been repeated claims of it being put back into production by some company or another, it never actually happened and probably never will.
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Old 07-26-2020, 09:00 PM
Jessie James 58 Jessie James 58 is offline
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If you read about Coopers time in the military, You can understand his love for the 45 and it's need to be ready to shoot in an instant.
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Old 07-27-2020, 02:55 AM
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"Jeff Cooper... If he believed, it was true.
Sounds a little like "We choose truth over fact."

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Old 07-27-2020, 07:52 AM
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Well I hope Doug M is at least partly wrong, since I just picked up an unfired 4566!

As far as Cooper, over 20 years ago I took a SD class and everyone said "ditch the Sig and get a 1911." I bought a used Springfield 1911. Stove-piped, but SA had it back to me in less than a week and it's been flawless since, free of charge.

Since then, I've owned just about every variation of pistol one can buy, some as recently as last week, but can't say any handle better than the 1911. Shootability of the 1911 is like no other, for me. The grip size is about perfect for me. Doublestack 9mms are too fat, though I'm warming up to my 6946. I actually owned a 645 long ago, sold it because it was just too big for anything I needed it for. Then, a few years ago, bought another 645, I guess to to prove it to myself??? Since sold it. Just can't let it go though, so I recently grabbed a 4566 - still need to take that one for a drive.

I guess, for me, the 1911 isn't perfect for every CCW scenario, so I continue to seek nirvana.
I owned or have owned two 4566s and a. 4583. Never had a problem with any of them and I shot those guns regularly.

I do not doubt there was a bad run of guns or two during the 44xx production run but in general they are robust and reliable handguns.
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Old 07-27-2020, 08:04 AM
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Col. Cooper did more to advance the understanding of personal defense than any other one person, and likely more than most. He also did more for firearm handling than most, if not all. My academy firearms staff were ALL Gunsite range masters, and we benefitted from that second hand influence.

Exactly this. Col. Coopers contributions to the art and science of defensive pistolcraft were huge.

While I might not agree with everyone of his opinions, he did much to advance the art science of defensive pistolcraft and training.

And yes, as he got older he seems to have gotten more opinionated and cantankerous but so have the rest of us.
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Old 07-27-2020, 09:38 AM
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If you think back to the 90's every gun magazine had an article every month, that either began, "Is the 1911 obsolete?" or began, "Is the 9mm big enough?" The article would hem and haw, carefully avoiding offense to the sponsors while also pandering to the 1911 Acolytes. The article would tell a story about John Browning, always including his middle name. The article might mention a failed police gunfight. The article would end by opining that the 9mm might be OK, but the 1911 was supreme. Jeff Cooper was the spiritual father of all the writers, though of course he did not care if he offended sponsors. But the man could write! I cannot find the article but he once wrote about how beautiful 50 BMG brass looked glittering in the sun as planes strafed islands in the Pacific. His prose was amazing.
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Old 07-27-2020, 09:45 AM
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I found the quote from Cooper:
"One aspect of the battlefields of World War II was its profusion of 50−caliber empties. In any place where the going was heavy, the terrain was asparkle with brightly gleaming cartridge cases. You could also see this extravagance from the air. I was particularly impressed by it at Guam, when just as the landing craft started in, the F6s went for the beach, and up there against that beautiful blue sky each airplane was suddenly accompanied by a shower of gold as it commenced strafing. This is one of those rare things in war that is not sufficiently enjoyed."

When someone writes this well there is probably a huge temptation to get drunk on your own words.

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Old 07-27-2020, 10:49 AM
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I took all three basic classes (handgun, shotgun and field rifle) at Gunsite back in the prehistoric days when Cooper still ran the operation. Yes, he very definitely had more than a bit of "My way is the way that works best" about him, but not without some cause. He could think clearly, write clearly and teach well. There is a great deal to be said for those skills. They are sorely lacking in many people these days.
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Old 07-27-2020, 01:19 PM
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Charlie Askins said he was told to write provocative articles to boost readership, generate letters, etc. All of the great gun writers were men of strong opinions and preferences-cf. Skeeter Skelton and the 44 Special, he also preferred the S&W M-27 in 5". Bill Jordan and the M-19. Jack O'Connor and the .270 Winchester. And as a military man Jeff Cooper knew you what you will use what you are issued, not what you want, it is better to master what you can get. And like many combat veterans he understood that marksmanship is the basis for combat shooting but other techniques and the combat mindset is required.
We all have our like and dislikes. With me, steel frames only, no polymer, aluminum, titanium, no "safe" triggers, etc. I won't have an S&W with a lock,
a Ruger New Model, etc.
Cooper wrote well and he was pretty up front about his likes, dislikes and preferences.
And he wasn't that opinionated and dogmatic. I recall him answering one reader's letter:
"As much as I favor the 45, I wear a 44 in bear country."
P
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Old 07-27-2020, 01:46 PM
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FWIW, when I first started getting training back in the 90s, it was all pretty much based on The Modern Technique...Weaver stance, flash sight picture, etc.

I'm probably not as well-read on Jeff Cooper's work as many here, but I think his biggest contribution to modern pistolcraft was coming up with a methodology that looked to experimentation through competition to see what works and what doesn't. And I think where he falters is losing that sense of experimentation and becoming dogmatic in his approach.

It's that sense of experimentation, carried on by others, that led to the predominance of the Isoceles stance both in competition and in the self defense world. And now we get feedback from those who've "been there, done that," video footage of real incidents, force-on-force training, etc.

I think all that originated with Cooper's experiments at Big Bear.

Just my opinion.
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Old 07-27-2020, 01:57 PM
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I bought my 645 right after reading this article when it came out.
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Old 07-29-2020, 05:08 PM
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Jack Flash
Quote:
He wasn't always like that. I bought a bunch of really old Guns & Ammo magazines and found his articles very insightful, respectful, and detailed. He even spoke of the 9mm without scorn or derision!

Unfortunately, they were also really long and scholarly. My guess is that as time went on the editors said
"Jeff, you gotta spice up your articles, nobody reads 'em!"
So he became a lot more opinionated and curmudgeonly.
Yep. I have many back issues of Guns & Ammo from the fifties and sixties also. You're right about Cooper becoming COL. JEFF COOPER later in his writing career. It really becomes obvious as he advanced through the Seventies and into the Eighties. However I also recall eagerly reading everything he wrote back in the Eighties, when I was a teenager and a young soldier/student.

I look back on his writings now (I'm 52) and I find myself rolling my eyes at time, but I didn't do that in 1983. Back then I took everything he wrote very seriously and I still read some of his older writings. He was very knowledgeable and those who did not care for him were very quiet.

Times change though. Nevertheless there is no denying that he left behind large footprints. For example: he's been gone fourteen years, but he can still get a thread going and keep it going.
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Old 07-30-2020, 08:46 PM
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Upon reading the article. It is clear that even in 1986, Col. Cooper was confused on the purpose of a DA/SA gun. It is not and never intended to be carried with a safety engaged. The safety is a decocker, something his beloved CZ-75 does not have and was a danger until B variants were made since a slip of the hammer while manually decocking the gun meant it could go off.

The entire mindset behind a gun like the Model 645 is that the gun is carried with the safety off and hammer down. The DA pull makes it better for the shooter to bring the gun into action. Something that famed German Gunsmity and Designer, L.W. Seecamp learned in WWII.
Have to say, I agree with this.

As much as I love the trigger on my EDC C&L 1911, I'm actually faster drawing from concealment with my ex-L.E. S&W 4566 which has a decock-only lever.

I can draw the 4566 from an AIWB, or in cold weather an OWB crossdraw rig, and put 8+1 rounds into the COM of a reduced silhouette faster than with my 1911. Not having to hesitate a half-second while fumbling to swipe off a thumb safety is likely the main reason.

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Old 07-30-2020, 09:37 PM
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It would have been interesting to have been present at an actual in person debate between Jeff Cooper and Bill Jordan on the auto vs. the revolver.
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Old 07-30-2020, 11:25 PM
Injunbro Injunbro is offline
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A few decades ago I hung out @ the same gun shop as Jeff Cooper (Bucky O'Neils in Prescott, AZ). He had a degree in political science, could fly a plane, hunted all over, won matches, etc. He was opinionated but could back up what he said on the range, hunting or combat. He encouraged differing opinions but only if they were backed w/ good reasons. If you disagreed & had experience to back it he was respectful... but heaven help the dingus who only had opinions! He thought the Model 94 .30-30 carbine the ideal police rifle & made excellent points for it's use. The .45 ACP was not his favorite handgun round, the 10mm was but few decent guns were made in it during his life, he often lamented it. He thought highly of the Model 10 S&W but didn't carry one since he believed you should either carry a SA auto w/ safety or DAO w/out, swapping shooting systems was a good way to foul up when things went wrong (I agree 100%). He loved .308 bolt action scout rifles & proved it's ideal for everything smaller than a buffalo. Kind of miss the old codger, he was very educational.... be kind of fun to hear what he'd have to say to Glock fanboys!
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Old 07-31-2020, 05:19 AM
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It is hard to escape the influence of Col. Cooper's techniques. When I first learned to shoot a handgun, my grandfathers revolver, he forced to master the Weaver stance before I could even fire the first shot. The Isocleses stance was actually taking over as the preferred method at the time, but the Weaver was considered the technique!
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Old 07-31-2020, 08:47 AM
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He thought highly of the Model 10 S&W but didn't carry one since he believed you should either carry a SA auto w/ safety or DAO w/out, swapping shooting systems was a good way to foul up when things went wrong (I agree 100%).
I, too, agree, which is why my CCW sidearms are either a S&W Model 6946 or a Model 640-1. DAO, not even the capability of SA.

The CZ-75 is great because it has 15 or 16 round magazines, can be carried in condition 1, and the double action provides a second strike should a round fail to fire on the first attempt. I'm eyeing the Taurus G2 and G3 as a potentially good option for a striker fired pistol as it normally fires from a "partially cocked" striker position, but should that first attempt fail to ignite the primer, there is that double action second strike. Can't do that with a Glock. Maybe Glock is not perfect?
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Old 08-01-2020, 02:30 AM
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How refreshing to read somebody's unabashed perspective without feeling as if they need to please everybody! Col. Cooper always was a good and honest writer. Personally I think he was too hard on the 645, but I sure love his style!
Ditto

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Originally Posted by Kurusu View Post
To me the biggest issue on that pistol is... Accuracy was nothing to write home about. Fine for "center of mass" at 25 yards, but that's it.
Man, that sure is news...to me. I recalled how sweet it was with duty ammo back then. I'm pretty certain it held to sub-3", rested, if I did my part.

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...he was outdated . Hell, in 1975, he claimed the Min-14 was superior tot he Colt SP1 Rifle and Carbine.
Back then, I'd say it prolly sure as heck WAS. You have to imagine frolicking around in the much and mire with each.


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Originally Posted by Doug M. View Post
1- My agency... first was the 1076. It was fragile at best. You may not recall, but the FBI had some serious problems with theirs. While mine worked fine most of the time, it ate an extractor at roughly 600 rounds and was a bear to repair - Smith no longer supported them.

2- Their successor was the 4566, a pig for which ... I saw far too many of them have fatal malfunctions (not correctable with an immediate action drill, but requiring a gunsmith) on the range, including some that failed spectacularly right out of the box.


3-I never had a problem with the DA/SA transition ...The slide mounted decocker/safety is and was a complete disaster, and I cannot understand how any savvy and responsible agency can allow them as they are counterintuitive and a staggering pain except for those with relatively large hands.

.
1- My Range chief gave me the GO to carry one, but I had to provide my own ammo, natch. I put scads of full-power LSWC reloads through mine, as well as several hundred Win. SilverTips, which was what I was authorized for carry. Never a problem. Then again, i was an example of ONE, out of about 120, LOL.

2-All Smith DA guns were authorized for us. The city to our north issued the 4506, to get away from the optional 1911 that was quite popular. Over 300 cops back then. NO problems. Now, if 'Commanderizing' the big one by 3/4" caused a fuss, again...I was unawares.

3- Neither did I, but in that era, the Smith and Beretta were the only two 'common' guns w/external safeties. For me, the Smith was a breeze to use, whereas the 92 was lacking.
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Old 08-01-2020, 03:24 AM
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Ditto



Man, that sure is news...to me. I recalled how sweet it was with duty ammo back then. I'm pretty certain it held to sub-3", rested, if I did my part.

At what distance did you get those sub 3" groups?

The one I tried would do about 4 1/2 average at 25 meters. Since the intended use in my case was competition, that was not good enough. And I was not the only one evaluating it. Maybe that particular gun was a lemon.

Anyway, sub 3 at 25 meters is not enough for winning.
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