Non-Railed, Caliber Marked TSW’s

4T5GUY · #1 10-17-2020, 01:26 AM

I know I’ve asked this question before, (about individual TSW examples,) but this question is broader.

Thanks to 18DAI I found out about the 7 rnd 4513 non-railed TSW’s, (not the pre-rail 6rnd ones,) He was instrumental in me finally finding/getting one and it’s a great compliment to my 6 rnd non-railed 4513TSW. From him I found out that there were also some 4566 TSW’s that were non-railed and of course I want one. I’m pretty sure that I asked about the non-railed 8 rnd 3913TSW’s existence here also. (?).

I’ve seen non-railed 40TSW’s, marked 40TSW, (not TSW,) that were obviously LE trade ins so they exist but i’ve never seen a non-railed 3913TSW.

I’m finding that the TSW’s are everything that the PC examples are, especially the latter TSW’s AND they’re less expensive. Maybe because they were LE contracts they got “special” treatment?

So what other non-railed TSW’s are out there? I mean the latter non-railed caliber marked, most likely LE special order, (45TSW not TSW in .45 cal, 40TSW not TSW in .40 cal. etc.) Anyone else notice any improvement over the standard S&W pistol offerings of like pistols?

Jim

JohnHL · #2 10-17-2020, 02:35 AM

Jim, the railed TSW models (whether the purchasing agency chose to have the rails or not) have always been my favorite models (at least since their debut), because they represent the culmination of everything S&W learned about building service semi-auto pistols in their half century of doing just that.

It is my understanding that ALL of the railed TSW pistols were available without the rail if the purchasing agency so desired.

But because rails were a popular accessory at that time, few agencies chose to delete them.

And that usually meant that the rail holes were plugged.

Still, for a large enough order, I'm sure S&W would have been happy to NOT drill the holes at all.

I wish I could tell you where to find some.

John

18DAI · #3 10-17-2020, 06:56 AM

While you never say never when it comes to S&W, I cannot recall ever seeing a rail free 3913TSW. 8-round gun.

Atlanta PD had rail free 5903TSWs. So, I would guess that perhaps they ordered some rail free 3913TSWs for off duty/plainclothes units.

Back a decade ago, J&G had some rail free 4563TSWs. Traded in from an Arizona LE agency. THAT is a gun I wish I'd aquired. With a spurless hammer installed, it would be an ideal carry gun, for me.

I am back working part-time at the local indoor range as an instructor. There is a S&W expert who comes in periodically. I will ask him about rail free 3913TSWs next time he does 4T5GUY. Regards 18DAI

toddcfii · #4 10-17-2020, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4T5GUY

I know I’ve asked this question before, (about individual TSW examples,) but this question is broader.

Thanks to 18DAI I found out about the 7 rnd 4513 non-railed TSW’s, (not the pre-rail 6rnd ones,) He was instrumental in me finally finding/getting one and it’s a great compliment to my 6 rnd non-railed 4513TSW. From him I found out that there were also some 4566 TSW’s that were non-railed and of course I want one. I’m pretty sure that I asked about the non-railed 8 rnd 3913TSW’s existence here also. (?).
I’ve seen non-railed 40TSW’s, marked 40TSW, (not TSW,) that were obviously LE trade ins so they exist but i’ve never seen a non-railed 3913TSW.

I’m finding that the TSW’s are everything that the PC examples are, especially the latter TSW’s AND they’re less expensive. Maybe because they were LE contracts they got “special” treatment?

So what other non-railed TSW’s are out there? I mean the latter non-railed caliber marked, most likely LE special order, (45TSW not TSW in .45 cal, 40TSW not TSW in .40 cal. etc.) Anyone else notice any improvement over the standard S&W pistol offerings of like pistols?

Jim

Why so interested in the non rail vs rail guns? Simply rarity? Also why does it make a difference to you that it be marked with caliber and TSW, i.e. 45 TSW vs a 45 marked TSW? Also rarity? Any actual quality difference?

4T5GUY · #5 10-17-2020, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toddcfii

Why so interested in the non rail vs rail guns? Simply rarity? Also why does it make a difference to you that it be marked with caliber and TSW, i.e. 45 TSW vs a 45 marked TSW? Also rarity? Any actual quality difference?

The early marked, (non-railed,) TSW were marked just that. The “latter” ones were marked caliber and TSW. Even same year same caliber ones were marked different because they are different pistols like my 4513TSW’s. 6 vs 7 rnd, 7 vs 8 rnd. The latter ones are matching numbered frame and slides that stayed together throughout.

I am not interested in railed examples but want everything offered with them. WITHOUT the rails.

Jim

GaryS · #6 10-17-2020, 12:21 PM

Although the SCSW doesn't specifically mention it, the rails on my pre rail 3913TSW are more square than on my 3913s (when I had them) were. Also, the rail from that gun will not fit on my 6906.

I don't know that they were machined as a pair, but there is more beef on the rails.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4T5GUY

The early marked, (non-railed,) TSW were marked just that. The “latter” ones were marked caliber and TSW. Even same year same caliber ones were marked different because they are different pistols like my 4513TSW’s. 6 vs 7 rnd, 7 vs 8 rnd. The latter ones are matching numbered frame and slides that stayed together throughout.

I am not interested in railed examples but want everything offered with them. WITHOUT the rails.

Jim

4T5GUY · #7 10-17-2020, 01:13 PM

The latter, (caliber TSW marked pistols,) were matched frame with slide. The are numbered so. That number has nothing to do with the pistols serial number just like the early PC examples I have. The PC ones I have are electro-penciled not stamped for matching/mating though.

Jim

Martya · #8 10-18-2020, 10:22 AM

My 4513TSW 7+1 mag was ordered without the rail, so I refer to it as "never rail." Some folks have the rail, some folks have remnant holes or plugs where the rail was removed. But only a rare few uncover the "never rail" version. Rare few.....

BTW, 4T5GUY, seems our guns are brothers, your serial # is just 10 numbers different from mine. Funny, nearly the exact same label, even the same yellow stain!

18DAI · #9 10-18-2020, 11:28 AM

Only 4 digits from mine. Same product code.

Thank you again Martya for helping me get mine!

Last gun I will ever part with. Regards 18DAI

tt66 · #10 10-20-2020, 10:03 PM

I have this Mod 4053TSW. The slide is marked 40 Tactical. It is a non rail, 9rd double stack, DAO, alloy frame with a 3.5" barrel. The frame and slide are each numbered 527. Something that is interesting to me is that on pg 375 of Version 4 of the SCSW, it shows the identical gun, but with a rail.

I purchased this from the estate of a dear friend. I sent it back to S&W for night sites and an action package that they were offering at the time. It is really sweet but it is my only .40 so it gets more carry time than it does range time.

4T5GUY · #11 10-20-2020, 11:00 PM

Yes that is exactly what my original question was. Thank you for your post and great pictures of a very nice non-railed caliber marked TSW example. I suspect the trigger is perfect and the slide to frame rail tolerances are tight. So tight you have to really want it to reassemble.

I’m sure there are more of the caliber marked TSW’s out there.

Jim

Green Frog · #12 10-21-2020, 08:48 AM

OK, my curiosity is getting me. This is probably a silly question, but were there any 2nd Generation metal framed guns that came from the factory rail equipped? I’m visualizing a round trigger guard, late production gun with a screwed on plate, if such a variant would exist. I’m guessing no, but just to get the matter settled can I ask someone to give a definitive answer and “disprove a negative” for me?

Froggie

JohnHL · #13 10-21-2020, 12:06 PM

I've never seen one, Froggie.
Even back in the day.

The whole light thing on guns didn't take off until well after the debut of the 3rd gen models.

John

Green Frog · #14 10-21-2020, 12:17 PM

That’s what I feared.

Now I’ll have to look @ one of those later things and see whether the concept could be adapted to a Gen 2 gun... bummer! But I’m bound and determined to stick with an all metal frame... not even wrap-around grips. Call me a Luddite, but I like to just think of myself as being “old school!”

Oh well, if it were easy, anyone could do it!

BTW John, once I swapped out the sear lever on the Franken-Smith, it’s working as slick as the green stuff on my pond!

Froggie

PS would I find the plate on a full sized 3906 or something similar?

JohnHL · #15 10-21-2020, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green Frog

That’s what I feared.

Now I’ll have to look @ one of those later things and see whether the concept could be adapted to a Gen 2 gun... bummer! But I’m bound and determined to stick with an all metal frame... not even wrap-around grips. Call me a Luddite, but I like to just think of myself as being “old school!”

Oh well, if it were easy, anyone could do it!

Putting a light rail on a non-rail pistol has been attempted (not by yours truly, yet) and the subject has been broached vis-a-vis 3rd gen S&W pistols.

Two thoughts come to mind:

The radius on the 9mm dust cover is slightly smaller (IIRC) than the radius on the 9/40 TSW models, so if you could lay your hands on a 9/40 TSW rail (S&W won't sell them), you could probably drill the holes to mount it on a 2nd or 3rd gen non-TSW dust cover.

In years past, Brownells sold light rails for 1911 pistols, so possibly one of those could be adapted.

I think one of those rails from Brownells was a "glue-on" unit.

Quote:

BTW John, once I swapped out the sear lever on the Franken-Smith, it’s working as slick as the green stuff on my pond!

Froggie

I'm happy I could be of service!

Quote:

PS would I find the plate on a full sized 3906 or something similar?

I'm sorry.

I don't understand this question.

John

antilamr · #16 10-22-2020, 02:48 AM

"but i’ve never seen a non-railed 3913TSW"

This one was just sold locally. I'm usually on the board daily but was distracted due to helping grandma with her house. Listed 6 days ago and sold quick for $650. I've attached pictures for you.
It would have been mine If I had saw it first. My 3913 needed someone to keep it company!

Green Frog · #17 10-22-2020, 08:38 AM

I asked:
“PS would I find the plate on a full sized 3906 or something similar?”

You Replied:
“I'm sorry.

I don't understand this question.

John”

You answered my poorly worded question John. I was wondering whether there was a rail available (on a “plate”) to be added to the bottom of the dust cover of a full sized third gen 9mm. So it appears that S&W won’t sell me one and Brownell’s used to but may not now... this was what I was asking for. I’m now trying to decide whether “Frankie” would benefit sufficiently from a light to suffer the indignity of more “stitches” (screw holes) added to his dust cover.

This “simple project” seems to be getting out of hand, but it started out as an exercise to build the gun I would have ordered from the S&W Custom Shop when these guns were in production if I had possessed the ability to do so. As I learn more about their history, more features seem to be creeping in to the plan. What can I say? I’m attracted by “shiny things.” This is going to end up being the “Swiss Army Knife” of 9mms.

Best regards,
Froggie

4T5GUY · #18 10-22-2020, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antilamr

"but i’ve never seen a non-railed 3913TSW"

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4T5GUY

I’m pretty sure that I asked about the non-railed 8 rnd 3913TSW’s existence here also. (?).

So what other non-railed TSW’s are out there? I mean the latter non-railed caliber marked, most likely LE special order.
Jim

Yes the early, 7rnd pre/non-railed 3913TSW's are really nice. It took me a long time to finally get one. They are out there but I had a very specific condition and price in mind. (High condition, low price.)

Someday I'll find an 8rnd, non-railed 3913TSW.

Jim

hemiram · #19 10-23-2020, 03:02 AM

I had a 4006 TSW with the rails that was about 99% condition, except the rail was loose enough that if you put a light on it, it shook a little. I wish I had sent it into S&W for new night sites and reriveting the rail ad kept it, but I sold it along with all my other .40 stuff.

TercGen · #20 10-23-2020, 07:14 PM

OK, so technically this is a non-recessed grip frame 3913TSW pre-rail, but it's the closest thing I've ever seen to a non-railed, caliber-marked 3913TSW. Yes, I tried to track this particular gun down, and no, I was not able to purchase it.

GaryS · #21 10-23-2020, 08:30 PM

That has to be an ultra rare variation. No wonder you couldn't track that down. Might even be a one off or prototype.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TercGen

OK, so technically this is a non-recessed grip frame 3913TSW pre-rail, but it's the closest thing I've ever seen to a non-railed, caliber-marked 3913TSW. Yes, I tried to track this particular gun down, and no, I was not able to purchase it.

4T5GUY · #22 10-23-2020, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TercGen

OK, so technically this is a non-recessed grip frame 3913TSW pre-rail, but it's the closest thing I've ever seen to a non-railed, caliber-marked 3913TSW.

I sure wish I could see all the numbers on it.

Can you see what the three lettered prefix of the serial number is? Thanks for posting the picture for sure, very interesting.

Jim

18DAI · #23 10-23-2020, 09:33 PM

I was going to suggest that looked like a 3913TSW top end on a standard frame TercGen, till I saw the beavertail shape.

S&W put that same "cut" - chopped looking beavertail on the original rail free 3913TSWs. Looks like you found a Unicorn!

And the picture was too pixilated when I blew it up to make out the serial prefix. But it sure resembled "TD.....something. TDU, TDT and TDR being common LE gun serial prefixes for models made after the "official end of production", for LE orders of 50 guns, or more.

Very interesting pistol. There you go, TercGen proved they DO EXIST!

Regards 18DAI

GaryS · #24 10-23-2020, 11:15 PM

Odd that it's not caliber marked either.

TercGen · #25 10-23-2020, 11:58 PM

I would have to agree with you guys - this was a very rare pistol. I've never seen another like it. Like you noticed 18DAI, it's definitely the pre-rail beavertail, and very obviously has a full-length grip frame.

Digging around, I found a few more pics of this gun, including the serial # and the box tag. It's listed as a 7-round! Spec ord would date this to '98 most likely, which makes sense for the normal pre-rail 3913TSW's. I'd have to agree with Gary, probably a one-off or prototype of some kind.

4T5GUY · #26 10-24-2020, 08:19 PM

Thank you for the better pictures and also for keeping my original post alive. Seems there are some different combinations with the 3913TSW pistols and other TSW’s (?) It’s really cool seeing different ones, at least to me.

There’s that same yellow high lighting of the product code. Am I starting to see a pattern here or what?

Jim

cnette01 · #27 10-24-2020, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4T5GUY

The latter, (caliber TSW marked pistols,) were matched frame with slide. The are numbered so.

Jim

That's very interesting. I have a 4013 TSW (non caliber Tactical marked billboard) that was purported to be part of the CHP series. I checked the frame and slide and it does have matching numbers. Does this mean that my 4013 TSW is a later model that was matched frame with slide?

4T5GUY · #28 10-24-2020, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnette01

That's very interesting.

No that’s very interesting.

My 4013TSW is not frame/slide numbered matched, but neither is my 4006TSW CHP. (Last picture.)

I’m getting more confuseder.

It’s obviously number matched so frame and slide were meant to stay together throughout. That’s great.

Jim

cnette01 · #29 10-24-2020, 10:49 PM

My CHP 4006TSW doesn't have matching interior numbers either for the frame/slide.

4T5GUY · #30 10-24-2020, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnette01

Does this mean that my 4013 TSW is a later model that was matched frame with slide?

Your example is the earlier 4013TSW.

The picture I “stole” and attached is of a latter one. I’ve seen a few of these that were non-railed but they were high priced and low condition. Some day though.

Jim

18DAI · #31 10-24-2020, 11:04 PM

Later production and SOME LE Special order TSWs, did away with the matching numbers on the slide and frame.

They were still as well made and as tight, in my experience. Regards 18DAI

JohnHL · #32 10-25-2020, 02:55 AM

I'll need to check my notes to recall which models, but one TSW had a number on the frame but I could not find one on the slide, until I removed the rear sight.

And one had a number on the slide but I could not find one on the frame, until I removed the sear spring.

Both the Lord and S&W work in mysterious ways.

John