My history with the 4563TSW

[18DAI]

I have had light weight S&W 3rd gen 45s for a few decades now. I recall being handed an early 4506 and thinking, wouldn't this be perfect for carrying all day if it had an aluminum frame. Many years later, I learned that someone else thought the same thing and there were a handful of 4503s made. Some even escaped the factory and are in private hands today.

Many agencies loved the 4566TSW. But some folks complained about the weight. S&W was reluctant, back in the day, to even make a 45 handgun. Much less one with an aluminum frame. But gunrag writers - this was back when people still purchased and read them - were pushing S&W to produce an aluminum framed 45. The majority wanting a compact "carry" 45 pistol.

S&W was quietly working on the prototypes of what would become the model 457 during this period. IIRC it was the mid 90s. The Performance Center, formed in 90/91, was also working on what became the Shorty 45.

But the large LE market, while wanting a compact, light weight 45, also wanted a service size/full size 45 lighter than a 4566. In 1997 they got the compact 457. But it was not till around 2000 - 2001 that the 4563TSW made its debut. Basically a 4566 with an aluminum frame, it made carrying a full size 45 pistol easier on officers dealing with an increasing number of items on their duty belts and the subsequent weight increase.

I was working plainclothes coat and tie investigations at the time. We had gone to semi auto pistols around 2003 IIRC. I carried a 4506-1 and a 4516 off duty. I also was issued a 4566. An aluminum framed version of the 4566 held some appeal, but alas, on my salary, I could not afford a new one. And that stupid tack on rail was a turn off too. We carried our lights. Back then we didn't hang anything on the pistol.

Around 2007/2008 I got a call from my gunsmith. He knew I liked and purchased S&W 3rd gen guns and was carrying same. He told me he had taken in a few surplus 4563TSWs. Did I want one? I told him yes, but I didn't want to deal with the rail and I needed a spurless hammer as I had been saving money on sport coats and suit coat liners by carrying 4566s and 4516s with spurless hammers. Iliked them. A lot!

My gunsmith was a talented fellow and good salesman. He replied, no problem! I will make you one just like that. And he did. He dropped the rail and filled the holes in the dustcover with plastic rivets. He found a spurless MIM hammer too and installed it. It was the "perfect" carry 45, for me.

Around the same time I aquired a one of one prototype 4563, 45CQB from the Performance Center. I was really enjoying the lighter weight full size guns. But shortly afterwards, I aquired my first 4513TSW. And going through a divorce at the time, needed funds more than guns. So, sadly and inexplicably, I let the "custom" 4563TSW go. I have regretted it ever since. And for years I posted on local gunboards in the WTB section. Hoping whoever bought my 4563TSW would sell it back to me. But no joy to date.

So, I was extremely pleased when my friend vigil617 pointed me to a rail free 4563TSW on the big auction board. Like the LE Special order 7-round 4513TSW my friend Martya hooked me up with several years back, this is one made with no holes in the dustcover. Alls it will need is a spurless hammer and some new springs to become my new carry gun.

According to the USPS Tracking data, she should be here at my FFL sometime today. Hopefully I will pick it up this afternoon. If not, then Monday. I will tear it down for a good cleaning and lube. Then test fire it early next week. Range report and pics to follow. Regards 18DAI

[vigil617]

A great read, sir! It's fascinating to learn the Third Gen 45ACP history as you experienced it over the last couple of decades, and from an LEO viewpoint. Your description makes the evolution of these models gel for me and increases my appreciation for these guns that so many of us on this board use, shoot, and collect in all the iterations. I for one cannot wait to see your photos and read your range report!

[M29since14]

Waiting...

[Dparker]

Congratulations on finally acquiring your “grail gun”!! Indeed there are some amazing/helpful/informative people in this forum! Looking forward to hearing your range report!

Cheers!
David

[4T5GUY]

You got me excited too.

If you want and or need a .45 spurless hammer I have one I’d be happy to send you. It’s almost new, (but a forged one if that would make a difference.)

Jim

[Erocksmash]

PICTURES.... PICTURES.... PICTURES....

I'm in love with my 4566TSW! Something even lighter i had no idea existed....

[18DAI]

4T5GUY Thanks for the kind and generous offer! Much appreciated! But the day I won it, I placed a WTB ad and have a spurless MIM hammer inbound. It has a MIM trigger, so I need a MIM hammer to make it drop in.

I am contemplating doing it myself, so I wanted it as simple as possible. But thank you!

Thanks all! It is still "in transit". So, looking like Monday before I get my hands on it. Regards 18DAI

[Martya]

Originally Posted by 18DAI

4T5GUY Thanks for the kind and generous offer! Much appreciated! But the day I won it, I placed a WTB ad and have a spurless MIM hammer inbound. It has a MIM trigger, so I need a MIM hammer to make it drop in.

I am contemplating doing it myself, so I wanted it as simple as possible. But thank you!

Thanks all! It is still "in transit". So, looking like Monday before I get my hands on it. Regards 18DAI

Careful when cleaning / modifying, many of those parts interchange with your 4513TSW.

Was the 4563TSW using a spurred hammer? MIM?

[18DAI]

Martya, yes, the 4563TSW ws produced from 2000 to 2006. With evidence that there were some LE orders (50 guns or more) later than 2006.

All of them were produced with MIM hammers and triggers. And my understanding is that if you go to forged parts, you need to change the trigger as well as the hammer to get the best, smoothest pull. Also, going with a forged set requires some gunsmithing. Filing of the hammer hooks ect.

I can't recall if it was Fastbolt or Vito at the Performance Center who told me that. Anyways, they also told me that - for my minimal skill level, a MIM hammer installation was easier to accomplish. Just use the strut in the 4563TSW and the MIM hammer I have inbound.

I am in no hurry though. I will be testing and Shooting the 4563TSW, as is, at first. I am instructing and working at the local public range. Carrying a full size 45 when doing so. I wanted a full size - but lighter gun to carry as some shifts are 10 hours when working. After around 6 to 8 hours, the 4566 starts to drag your drawers down.

I currently have no need of a concealeable gun at either job. We don't conceal our guns at the range. And as a Magistrate I am armed by statute and with all the stupidity currently going on, I don't care who sees the pistol. Regards 18DAI

[vigil617]

18, going back to your original post, what's this about a 4503 model?

I'd never heard of such, and one reason I frequent this part of the board is so I can learn more about the back stories of S&W production.

[18DAI]

vigil617 there were either four or six 4503s made. I can't recall exactly and of course I can't find my notes, because I need them.

I was informed of their existance several years ago, by a person who was a retired employee and owned one. He said there was at least one other example in private hands. I believe it is owned by a collector here.

Essentially a 4506-1 with an aluminum frame. The computer system at the time did not have the nomenclature, so the sale, to him, was recorded as a "4506". Other than begging him to sell or trade it to me, thats about all I know about those Unicorns.

Perhaps one of the SWCA folks will descend from Mount Springfield and share the rest of the story on the 4503 with the great unwashed here. But don't hold your breath. Regards 18DAI

PS : The same fellow also owned and told me about a handful of Melonited 4506-1s. Made up as LE sales samples. He also owned one of those. Which I also begged him to sell or trade me!

EDITED TO ADD: I wish SmithNut, Grinder and KurtC were still here. What those gents knew about rare and one off S&Ws most of us will never know. They are missed!

[jsbethel]

I recall seeing one on Gunbroker a few months ago - 4503

[18DAI]

Interesting! Glad I didn't see it. I would probably be working through a 2nd divorce.

Linked thread says ten made with two out in circulation. So there you go. $3K too for the sold example. Anyone here buy it? I would love to see some pics of it. Regards 18DAI

[vigil617]

Wow. Don't know how I missed that 4503 thread or the GB auction. Thanks for sharing, jsbethel.

Three grand for that unicorn!

It would be fascinating to know why S&W decided not to proceed with production. I'm sure it came down to "wouldn't have been profitable," but the what-if of that model joins that of other guns that never made it into production.

Would be great to know how many of these were produced. You don't see them that often, even in the railed version, and it's interesting there were so many more of the 4566TSWs even though it was a heavier gun.

EDITED TO ADD: Interesting, too that the Performance Center produced so many more of the 4563 CQB pistols in two varieties (total of 314) compared to the 4566 ones (91, plus around another 20 or so special order ones), back in 2000/2001.

[jsbethel]

Originally Posted by vigil617

It would be fascinating to know why S&W decided not to proceed with production.

I believe some of the correspondence shown in the auction was with an involved former S&W employee who indicated that the prototype frames cracked after extended testing.

[jsbethel]

Originally Posted by 18DAI

I would love to see some pics of it.

Here is a google pic pulled from the auction.

[18DAI]

Awesome! Thanks jsbethel! Regards 18DAI

[Sevens]

I may have saved pictures of the communication that was posted in that auction. I’ll have to dig. I do recall that (at the time!) they did not have the geometry figured out and they had frame failures, obviously if they had tried again later with the experience they had gained, a 4503 most certainly could have been produced that was safe, durable and viable.

If you think about it, there are arguments to be made against the idea. Much like the 3906 got killed off quickly (why full steel and full size but only single stack in a generation of hi-caps?!), similar would be the argument against an alloy frame full size .45, when an alloy frame 4566 seemed to make more sense.

They are silly arguments when you consider that S&W made sooooo many variations that even company representatives couldn’t keep track of all of them, but that was the likely argument, sigh.

18DAI, I always love it when you dig out your memories and hands-on duty experience, it brings a REAL angle to all of these guns that I have never had and never will have. Quite often it feels like we are getting whisked back a few years when these guns were still in production and in active duty. Great stuff as always!

[18DAI]

Thank you Sevens for the kind words! Much appreciated. Hardly a day goes by that a thread here doesn't trigger a walk down memory lane, for me. My pleasure to share some of them here.

Hard to believe it has been so many years since these guns we buy, use and talk about were mainstream and in daily use by LE Agencies.

I am still using them daily. For serious purpose as well as tools for teaching new shooters. Great pistols that production ended on much too soon. IMO of course. Regards 18DAI

[vigil617]

Originally Posted by jsbethel

Here is a google pic pulled from the auction.

Is it just me, or does that gun have a particular beauty and elegance to it?

Thanks again, jsbethel. It's great to have a photo of that gun here on the Forum, if nothing else for the value to posterity.

[18DAI]

I picked up the 4563TSW from my FFL today. I just now finished cleaning it. I don't think it was ever cleaned or lubed. The good news is I don't think it has been shot more than a hundred times.

The rails are in excellent condition with most of the finish still intact. It does need a new trigger play spring. But I bent the one in it till the click ceased. I installed a new recoil spring and a new set of Hogue grips. Lubed and it is ready for a range trip tomorrow.

Interesting , to me, the grip frame appears to be 2mm too short. Sort of like the 4503 above, but not as bad. The Hogue grips hang 2mm below theend of the grip frame. I had not encountered that before. Mags still drop free and lock in, so it is not an issue. Just unusual.

I got to meet my friend Jeppo at the FFL - thank you again for lunch my friend! Jeppo noticed it too.

Anyways, here are some pics as promised. Regards 18DAI

[Jeppo]

Enjoy your new shooter. What a find!

Do the new grips also extend down below the frame? So strange.

[18DAI]

Yes Jeppo. The new Hogues descend below the grip frame the same 2mm as the ones you saw on it today. Strange.

And it appears a factory Delrin fits the same. With the same overlap. The only thing I can think of is that being this was an LE Special order, it was done purposely, so that you can rip the mag out of the well in case of a malfunction. It does facillitate that.

Thing is, I don't recall the same happening with the other 4563TSW I owned. IIRC, the fit of the grips on it, was perfect. Which would mean a longer grip frame. Anyways, no matter. It doesn't look unsightly nor does it affect function.

Going to try to run by work tomorrow and run a couple of mags through it to confim function and see that POA = POI with Winchester RA45T.

BTW, the gun cleaned up really well. And I was able to push the trigger play spring further forward eliminating the click.

I have a prototype stainless steel trigger play spring. Maybe in the spring when I go on vacation I will send the gun to BMCM and ask him to install the steel trigger play spring. Never have to worry about it after that.

Always a pleasure to see you my friend! Lets go shooting again soon! Best regards, 18DAI

PS: Thank you again vigil617! I love the pistol!

[4T5GUY]

Nice, I’m glad finally it arrived safely. It does look to be in very great condition and I’m sure it will become a favorite.

Just out of curiosity and for my own interest, (without disclosing all of the serial number,) what is the three letter prefix of the serial number? I think I can make out a T, (?) maybe followed by a D or O?

Thanks to you and a few others I’m starting a list of these no railed TSW’s prefixes, (and complete serial numbers when available.) As you know there is a pattern.

Jim

[18DAI]

4T5GUY - TDU57XX is the serial. Thanks for tracking these scarce birds! Regards 18DAI

[vigil617]

Here's your best photo, turned so we can see it better, 18. Nice looking pistol!

[18DAI]

Thank you vigil617 - for EVERYTHING!

The gun has some exterior holster wear and a few handling marks. But they are of no concern, to me, because it is going to be used - a lot!

After carrying 4566s, I had forgotten how light the 4563 feels in comparison. In fact, my friend who owns the FFL where I had it shipped, commented on how light it was. A very good feeling gun.

Now to throw some rounds through it and get it into my holster. I go on duty tomorrow and would like to have it while I am watching the "show" tomorrow night. Thanks again my friend! Best regards, 18DAI

[4T5GUY]

It’s actually getting easier. Three of us here, you included have TDUXXXX in the 7nd no rail 4513TSW that are within very close serials of one another.

Now again TDU for a no rail 4563TSW. Hate to always jump to conclusions but there is definitely a pattern in these special run TSW’s. At least in the .45’s. I’ve got MSF in pre-railed ones of different calibers. Be interesting to see if TDU was also for different calibers of these special order TSW’s.

Also by chance, although it doesn’t really matter, do you have the box or spec ord #? As you know some of the other TDU’s were 1999 and an overlap of the MSF 1999 pre-railed 4513TSW’s.

Again thanks for your post, (s,) as always. Learning is fun.

Jim

[4T5GUY]

Originally Posted by vigil617

Here's your best photo, turned so we can see it better, 18. Nice looking pistol!

I thought I was the only one who “righted” 18’s images.

Jim

[18DAI]

No box or docs 4T5GUY. Shipped in plastic wrap. I paid premium price for it. But as a friend pointed out today, "I thought you were a shooter, not a collector. Did you want it? Whens the last time you saw one? Think you will see another for less anytime soon?"

Wise fellow. I now have zero buyers remorse. And if it shoots as good as the trigger feels, it will take a jackhammer to get the smile off my face.

Range report to follow. Regards 18DAI

[Jeppo]

4T5GUY

You’re looking for s/n prefixes on any TSW gun or just those two specific prefixes?

[4T5GUY]

Originally Posted by Jeppo

You’re looking for s/n prefixes on any TSW gun or just those two specific prefixes?

I was just noticing that these “different” no railed TSW’s were sharing the same prefix. I can’t imagine that this is an accident but I don’t know for sure. I don’t have very many non railed, (not enough,) TSW’s but MSF and TDU seem to be a common prefix in the ones I have. There’s a TDM there too but it’s the only one I have. I do realize that some were only made for a couple of years so that explains the like prefixes.

I think it’s interesting, at least to me to track these special order examples. Of course 18DAI was the reason I started down this path. I was very happy with my pre-rail examples until he shared a picture of a no rail 7rnd 4513TSW example with me. He thankfully was instrumental in me getting one. They are not just somewhat rare and difficult to find/get, but they are extremely perfectly built pistols. Slide to frame rail fit is a tight as any PC pistol I have. Really. Triggers are perfect and better than some PC’s I have. They hold there own in accuracy with the Briley bushing ones I have. I’m comparing the “working” .45 PC examples I have and not the target ones.

Jim

[Jeppo]

Got it. I’ve got a TSW in each of the three flavors but they must be “normal” examples.

[4T5GUY]

I’m sure none of the TSW’s are “normal,” and a big step above their regular production counterparts. There probably is no difference in the latter ones at all, (other than a rail.)

I just don’t have a railed one to compare the others to and I don’t foresee myself getting one. It’s just a personal preference for me and have no doubt that the TSW railed versions are top notch and put together with extra attention and skill.

Jim

[vigil617]

I sure hope 18 has his work schedule arranged to allow for some of that range time he's been needing for the new acquisition.

S'posed to be a pretty and unseasonably warm weekend here in North Carolina, so maybe we will get that range report he's been promising.

[18DAI]

vigil617 I was on duty the last 4 nights, including tonight. I am scheduled to work at the range all day tomorrow.

Either before we open or after we close, I intend to run a few mags through the 4563TSW. Not an extended range session, but enough to check function and make sure she shoots to point of aim. Sorry for the delay! Regards 18DAI

[18DAI]

I finally got to shoot the 4563. We were VERY busy all day, till around 10 minutes before closing. So I had to use a lane that "broke" yesterday. Someone hit the travel rail, causing the target carrier to not go beyond the 10 yard line. But that worked, for me, as I was tired and didn't have my range bag to rest the pistol on.

So I ran 4 mags - 32 rounds - to test for function and check that POA = POI. I used 8 rounds of S&B 230 ball, 8 rounds Sig Performance 230 ball and 16 rounds of Federal HST 230 JHP Standard velocity.

The gun ran 100% as expected. I had done the "pencil test" after cleaning to check for function and it had launched it across the room. Ejection was good, throwing everything up and over my right shoulder. I ran the S&B first. It went into 4" with 1 flyer. The Sig ball did a little better ar around 3.5", again with a pulled shot, from me. The HST grouped best, as expected for premium defensive ammo. Both groups averaging around 2".

I am VERY happy with the rail free 4563TSW! -Thank you again vigil617! It will go in my holster when working the range and also get carried a lot this winter.

I may change the grips out to the thinner OEM Delrins with a rubber grip sleeve. The Hogues on it now felt....thick, to me. I had to keep adjusting my grip in between mag changes. All my 3rd gen carry guns wear OEMs with the rubber sleeve set up. It anchors them in my hands better. And enables me to shoot tighter groups, faster.

Of course the trigger is a primary considerstion in an accurate pistol, despite what you may read elsewhere. The trigger on this 4563 is great. Very smooth with a crisp let off in DA and SA. Short reset like every 3rd gen. A couple of the younger guys working with me tried the trigger and were amazed by it. Their exposure is only with plastic striker fired guns. They had never experienced a good trigger. I teased them that I was old enough to remember when manufacturers strove to give handguns a good trigger right out of the box, without having to resort to aftermarket to obtain one.

I intend to spend more range time with the 4563 when my schedule slows down......if it slows down. With the tragic election outcome I anticipate a high volume continuing at the range and many more private lesson students on my days off. Ammunition availability appears to be going to get worse. But between the police supply and the instructors ammo discount I have managed to put up enough ammo that I can still shoot a few hundred rounds a month. And the next few months will be used familiarizing myself with the superb 4563TSW. Regards 18DAI

[vigil617]

Fixed it for ya!

Really glad this gun has turned out to have met your expectations. It's always a bit of a risk to buy something sight unseen, but the good thing about Third Gen pistols on auction sites is that we can feel confident from the get-go that they've been manufactured well and built to last. Still, it's good to find out for sure that what you've invested in is a "keeper."

Looking forward to more updates as you're able to wring it out over time. Keep us posted!

[M29since14]

A lot of good points in your last post, particularly about grips and triggers. Always gratifying to find someone who reinforces opinions you have already developed on your own. I don’t understand this modern business of trying to fluff off terrible triggers. A terrible trigger is a terrible trigger! Of course they are an impediment to accurate shooting. Why would anyone claim otherwise? (I guess we know the answer to that one. )

Hogue grips on S&W automatics have never felt right to me, but the Handall things cure the grip problem for me. Not pretty, but they work.

Great to know the gun has worked well and that the purchase was a good one. Congrats!

[18DAI]

Amen brother!

As we have discussed triggers and accurate shooting at the range that I am working at again, I and one other older fella (who carrys a TDA pistol also) realized that the younger guys, don't know what they don't know.

A few of them are young Marines, transitioning from active to reserves. All their experience has been with striker fired plastic. Glocks in their case. They have been conditioned to the "same trigger pull" is good enough. And that works, for them. To a degree.

But the other "old guy" and I routinely best them on the range. Because we both came up on revolvers, know a good trigger and how to work it and have shot just about everything out there. As far as handguns go. So these young guys have started trying other types of pistols and are discovering the benefits of a smooth crisp trigger. And they are shooting better groups.

With manufacturers pushing cheaply made guns out the door and people lining up to buy them, it is little wonder that no effort is made to provide a decent trigger on their product. And Apex tactical is probably pleased with that.

But there are a few manufacturers that are trying. We recently evaluated a few new pistols, for the rental case. The Mossberg MC2c was one of them. A thin 9mm with a GREAT feeling grip. And the trigger was not awful. Fairly smooth with a short reset. The gun shot well. For all of us. Walther also has a decent striker fired trigger on its pistols.

I don't own any striker fired plastic guns. I've no use for them. But my friendJeppo recently pointed out to me that it would behoove me to purchase a current production gun, for the sake of my private lesson customers. Most of whom have no idea how to find and purchase out of print guns online. Wise counsel.

So I may pick up one of those Mossberg MC2c pistols to teach with. Easy enough to shoot and manipulate and easily found for sale locally. For not too much money either. Regards 18DAI

[Jeppo]

18,

As always, your posts are a joy to read.

About “revolver guys” and triggers...

We have a mutual friend (who’s been too overwhelmed with work recently to post much here) who is very much a revolver shooter. Once he collected (he prefers the word “accumulated”) one or more of every S&W revolver ever made (ok, so that’s maybe a small exaggeration), he began vacuuming up 3rd Gens.

A couple years ago, he generously offered me a recently purchased 6904. When I asked why he would unload such a nice gun (and one he’d apparently been excited to find), he explained that he recognized he prefers DAO because each trigger pull remains “revolver-like”. It would be interesting to see how your young colleagues improve (or don’t) if they only shot revolvers or DAO for a period of time. I’d like to believe that 2019 dedicated ONLY to my 66-1 helped me, at least a bit.

If I bring a 39-2 over to the range, do you think you could convince them all to shoot it? That might be entertaining.

[18DAI]

Jeppo they view revolvers as archaic. When they heard, from long time members who stopped to welcome me back, that I shot and at one time carried revolvers, they were in shock. "Cap n ball?" They joked. These young guys have no use for revolvers. And despite what I read on this board, neither does anyone else in the buying public.

But thanks for the offer! And YES it would help them if they had the desire to try one.

Very kind of you to offer the 39-2. And hilarity would probably ensue. But since it "only" holds 8+1, I'm afraid it would also be a non starter. Even the guy, besides me, who carries a TDA pistol, will NOT carry a single stack. I am the only one with a single stack gun. And the only one with a 45 too. But thank you for the generous offer!

I'm working all day tomorrow. Stop on by! Regards 18DAI

[NCBeagle]

Originally Posted by Jeppo

18,

A couple years ago, he generously offered me a recently purchased 6904. When I asked why he would unload such a nice gun (and one he’d apparently been excited to find), he explained that he recognized he prefers DAO because each trigger pull remains “revolver-like”.

Responding to 18DAI: What an awesome find. Great thread.

Responding to Jeppo: I remember that 6904. Glad it has a good home. You've accumulated a broad collection of third-gens to keep it company.

[Jeppo]

Originally Posted by 18DAI

Very kind of you to offer the 39-2. And hilarity would probably ensue. But since it "only" holds 8+1, I'm afraid it would also be a non starter. Even the guy, besides me, who carries a TDA pistol, will NOT carry a single stack. I am the only one with a single stack gun. And the only one with a 45 too. But thank you for the generous offer!

You know me. I’m nothing if not persistent. If it’s gotta be a double stack and capacity is the name of the game...

how ‘bout a 30+1 Model 59?

[fuzzymcnab]

Hey 18DAI,

Can you tell me more about this?

"PS : The same fellow also owned and told me about a handful of Melonited 4506-1s. Made up as LE sales samples. He also owned one of those. Which I also begged him to sell or trade me! "

A buddy of mine has a gun marked 4506 he bought new, that might be melonite. Is there a way to determine this via serial number or product code? He has the box.
Thanks, fuzzy

[18DAI]

fuzzymcnab, sorry, but that right there is all he told me. A "handful" which IIRC was the same term he used when telling me about the 4503s.

So, I would assume the same or a similar amount produced. Just Melonited 4506-1s. All black. Forged hammers and triggers, again, IIRC. Wish I knew more. I believe he said they were made up as LE sales samples. For LE reps to show to agencies, to generate interest/orders. None were ordered AFAIK.

This guy was the real deal. He worked at S&W at a high level, for quite awhile. He had some VERY interesting guns that he purchased before he left. Regards 18DAI

[fuzzymcnab]

18DAI,
Man I could sit and talk to a guy like that all day. The stories must be fascinating.
Thanks for the response. I will have my buddy verify the forged hammers and triggers for starters. Maybe we will never know.
fuzzy