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Old 11-29-2020, 08:09 AM
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Default 4516 and 4516-1 Why Do They Take Different Mags?

I'm looking at some 4516's on GB.

I see there are 2 different pistols that look very similar but I see the 4516-1's mag is marked as only to be used in that pistol and that pistol only.

What's the backstory with that? Is one pistol better than the other? Was there an issue with the 4516 that made S&W come out with a pistol that took a different mag?

Any info would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 11-29-2020, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by quikdraw67 View Post
I'm looking at some 4516's on GB.

I see there are 2 different pistols that look very similar but I see the 4516-1's mag is marked as only to be used in that pistol and that pistol only.

What's the backstory with that? Is one pistol better than the other? Was there an issue with the 4516 that made S&W come out with a pistol that took a different mag?

Any info would be greatly appreciated.
I believe the info on GB is wrong, but someone else will chime in. The two should take the same mag. Wouldn’t be the first time GB had wrong info on there. Sometimes the seller doesn’t know much about the item he’s selling.
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Old 11-29-2020, 09:25 AM
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This isn't something that the seller posted, this is something I noticed marked on the 4516-1 magazine itself.
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Old 11-29-2020, 10:02 AM
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Here's an old thread,

4516 mag 4516-1 mag what's the diff
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Old 11-29-2020, 10:55 AM
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Thank you.

I'm not sure what to think. A lot of info and some of it contradictory.
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Old 11-29-2020, 01:59 PM
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I can tell you that I own a 4506 (no dash) and a 4506-1 and they both take the same magazines. In fact, I keep a 4516 (no dash) upper on my 4506 lower which essentially makes it a home-brewed 4596 and I've had no issues with the magazines there either.

I have several aftermarket 10-round extended mags for my 4506s and they work just fine as well.

However, the slides and barrels from my no-dash guns will NOT interchange with my -1. It seems that the interface between the frame and the slide was reengineered just enough when they moved to the -1 design.

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Old 11-29-2020, 02:08 PM
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I can tell you that I own a 4506 (no dash) and a 4506-1 and they both take the same magazines. In fact, I keep a 4516 (no dash) upper on my 4506 lower which essentially makes it a home-brewed 4596 and I've had no issues with the magazines there either.

I have several aftermarket 10-round extended mags for my 4506s and they work just fine as well.

However, the slides and barrels from my no-dash guns will NOT interchange with my -1. It seems that the interface between the frame and the slide was reengineered just enough when they moved to the -1 design.
Ok thank you.

The one I'm looking at is a no dash
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Old 11-29-2020, 03:03 PM
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I asked a guy who was a pretty big player in S&Ws LE division about that years ago. Here is what I recall he told me.

When the 4516 no dash was released, there was a problem with tolerance stacking. SOME 4516 no dash pistols would be built to looser tolerances due to wear on tooling and those pistols had issues/malfunctions. S&W had him and some engineers look into the problem.

He took several random, new production 4516s, a few cases of ammo and two helpers and fired the 4516s - till they were too hot to touch. Then they stuck them into pails of water to cool off and shot them some more. He found the guns to be reliable.

But the engineers were running a 4516 no dash, in a ransom rest and recording it firing on high speed cine film. And they thought that the empty shell casings were not travelling far enough - fast enough, from the ejection port, during cycling.

So despite the vigorous defense of the 4516 no dash by my aquaintance and his finding of the tolerance stacking during production, S&W went with the recommendation of the engineers and ended 4516 production at slightly over 5K units and redesigned the pistol. Resulting in the 4516-1.

The 4516-1 had a thicker, heavier slide which changed the timing during cycling. It also got a new single recoil spring instead of the dual nestled springs of the no dash. The magazines were also changed. They got new followers and the feed lips were slightly different. Some early 4516 no dash mags had indentations in them to keep the top round in the mag from moving during recoil - similar, but not the same, as S&W did with the CS45 mags later on. Those indentations were eliminated in the 4516-1 mags. IIRC, there was a slight contour change in the feed lips as well.........or in the spacing between them....

And the early production 4516-1 mags also got the legalese "warning" etched on them to "ONLY USE IN 4516-1". Ironically, according to my aquaintance, S&W had MORE issues with the redesigned 4516-1 then they did with the no dash pistols. Which caused them to modify the guns sent in for warranty work to the old dual nestled recoil spring set up and place a bushing in the end of the spring tunnel of the dustcover.

Eventually, it was decided at S&W that the recoil system and NOT the magazines were responsible for the 4516-1s issues. So the etching of magazines was dropped. And later another new follower, the black followers, were made to be used in every version of the 7 round single stack 45 mags.

I have owned every variant of the 4516 made with the exception of the prototype. And I still own a 4516 no dash and a LE Special order "4516 dash 3". The dash 3 being a 4516-2 made after the official end of production, featuring laser etched markings on the slide and frame. I have used all the various 7 round magazines in all the different 4516 variants. And I still use my "USE ONLY IN 4516-1" magazines, with the red followers and yellow followers as range magazines with no issues. None.

As a matter of fact, several years ago I purchased a LNIB 4516 no dash and ran a "test" of the pistol. Over several years. Recording any malfunctions I experienced. And I shot that gun a lot. And let new shooters shoot it too. With all the different magazines made. And I found the stories about the 4516 no dash being problematic, to be unfounded.

IIRC, thats how I met my aquaintance from S&W. He read my thread. And PMd me the back story. Hope this helps. Regards 18DAI
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Old 11-29-2020, 03:13 PM
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They told us during an armorer class that due to some reports of feeding issues in the 4516's produced, they made some changes (borrowed from the 1006 series guns) and produced the 4516-1's. They revised the magazines, as well, and the changes made them model-specific.

As time passed they eventually settled on a revision that produced the magazine body stamped ES1 (front wall of mag body), with the longer lip indentations (called P-lips in the class, presumably for "pressed"?) to help keep the top round seated under recoil, and the final black follower. We were told the black follower could be retrofitted in all magazines that originally came with a plastic butt plate (not in the 645 mags w/metal butt plates), but just installing the black follower obviously wouldn't change an older mag into a newer one, since the older one would still have the older mag body/lip design.

I don't know where my supplemental notes are for that older class (before the then-pending release of the compact aluminum .45's), so I'm just going on what little I can remember.
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Old 11-29-2020, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18DAI View Post
I asked a guy who was a pretty big player in S&Ws LE division about that years ago. Here is what I recall he told me.

When the 4516 no dash was released, there was a problem with tolerance stacking. SOME 4516 no dash pistols would be built to looser tolerances due to wear on tooling and those pistols had issues/malfunctions. S&W had him and some engineers look into the problem.

He took several random, new production 4516s, a few cases of ammo and two helpers and fired the 4516s - till they were too hot to touch. Then they stuck them into pails of water to cool off and shot them some more. He found the guns to be reliable.

But the engineers were running a 4516 no dash, in a ransom rest and recording it firing on high speed cine film. And they thought that the empty shell casings were not travelling far enough - fast enough, from the ejection port, during cycling.

So despite the vigorous defense of the 4516 no dash by my aquaintance and his finding of the tolerance stacking during production, S&W went with the recommendation of the engineers and ended 4516 production at slightly over 5K units and redesigned the pistol. Resulting in the 4516-1.

The 4516-1 had a thicker, heavier slide which changed the timing during cycling. It also got a new single recoil spring instead of the dual nestled springs of the no dash. The magazines were also changed. They got new followers and the feed lips were slightly different. Some early 4516 no dash mags had indentations in them to keep the top round in the mag from moving during recoil - similar, but not the same, as S&W did with the CS45 mags later on. Those indentations were eliminated in the 4516-1 mags. IIRC, there was a slight contour change in the feed lips as well.........or in the spacing between them....

And the early production 4516-1 mags also got the legalese "warning" etched on them to "ONLY USE IN 4516-1". Ironically, according to my aquaintance, S&W had MORE issues with the redesigned 4516-1 then they did with the no dash pistols. Which caused them to modify the guns sent in for warranty work to the old dual nestled recoil spring set up and place a bushing in the end of the spring tunnel of the dustcover.

Eventually, it was decided at S&W that the recoil system and NOT the magazines were responsible for the 4516-1s issues. So the etching of magazines was dropped. And later another new follower, the black followers, were made to be used in every version of the 7 round single stack 45 mags.

I have owned every variant of the 4516 made with the exception of the prototype. And I still own a 4516 no dash and a LE Special order "4516 dash 3". The dash 3 being a 4516-2 made after the official end of production, featuring laser etched markings on the slide and frame. I have used all the various 7 round magazines in all the different 4516 variants. And I still use my "USE ONLY IN 4516-1" magazines, with the red followers and yellow followers as range magazines with no issues. None.

As a matter of fact, several years ago I purchased a LNIB 4516 no dash and ran a "test" of the pistol. Over several years. Recording any malfunctions I experienced. And I shot that gun a lot. And let new shooters shoot it too. With all the different magazines made. And I found the stories about the 4516 no dash being problematic, to be unfounded.

IIRC, thats how I met my aquaintance from S&W. He read my thread. And PMd me the back story. Hope this helps. Regards 18DAI

Thank you. That clears it all up.
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Old 11-29-2020, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Fastbolt View Post
They told us during an armorer class that due to some reports of feeding issues in the 4516's produced, they made some changes (borrowed from the 1006 series guns) and produced the 4516-1's. They revised the magazines, as well, and the changes made them model-specific.

As time passed they eventually settled on a revision that produced the magazine body stamped ES1 (front wall of mag body), with the longer lip indentations (called P-lips in the class, presumably for "pressed"?) to help keep the top round seated under recoil, and the final black follower. We were told the black follower could be retrofitted in all magazines that originally came with a plastic butt plate (not in the 645 mags w/metal butt plates), but just installing the black follower obviously wouldn't change an older mag into a newer one, since the older one would still have the older mag body/lip design.

I don't know where my supplemental notes are for that older class (before the pending release of the compact aluminum .45's were released), so I'm just going on what little I can remember.
Thank you.
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