I have 3 model 39-2 pistols. One was made in early 1972 and it has a pin hole in the hammer .The other 2 do not . Why was the pin hole put in the hammer? What is the purpose for it?

It was a conspiracy between S&W and my upper command. It was a place to gather dust so command could ding us during inspections.

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183rd FBINA

LOL !!!!!!!

Can you post a pic?

See quote...as far as I know all 39-2 hammers should be identical.

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John 1:17
NRA Life Benefactor

Mine doesn't have a pin hole in it. I just wanted to see one with a pin hole in it.

The hole in the hammer was a feature of the Model 39 and I think it carried over to the early production of the Model 39-2, likely S&W using their existing supply of Model 39 hammers. What was the reason for the hole? Looked to be a bit small for a lanyard and there was already a lanyard loop on the bottom of the mainspring housing.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

I was once told the hole was for a lanyard that could be used for cocking the hammer for dry fire practice. The idea was the lanyard went around your neck the to cock the hammer you extended the gun just a little farther allowing the lanyard to pull the hammer back to the cocked position

I think this is correct. There was another training method back in the day where the instructor would use a string through that hole to cock the pistol for you when dry firing so that you didn't have to move your grip.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Sounds plausible.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

It’s a peep sight

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213th FBINA

To mimic the Commander/BHP hammer!

To lighten the hammer for faster lock time!

Just the cool factor!

Smiles,

The hole is .09" in dia. Will Army boot laces even fit?

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

Never measured mine, but they're a lot more than nine
hundredths of an inch, lol.

I, too have heard the story that the hole was for teaching purposes.

The way I heard it was that upon the sound of the hammer falling on the unloaded pistol, the instructor would yank the lanyard, cocking the hammer, but also mimicking recoil.

A more realistic approach to dry-firing, I suppose.

Whether it is true or not, I don't know.

John

I think it was just the "style" of burr hammers at the time the 9mm Automatic Pistol was introduced, like the High Power and the Colt Commander had at that time.

Why didnt the person learning to shoot just grab a box of ammo and just shoot? A guy behind you wanking on a string? Somewhere in the annals
of the factory there is an engineering directive on the hole in the hammer.
Why on the early guns, but not on the later guns?

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

I no longer have all the old books I used too but I know there was one by a notable target shooter of the late 19th and early 20th century (Winans, perhaps) that had a picture of him using an interesting technique. His single action revolver had a lanyard through the hammer, held in his teeth so that he could cock the gun after every shot without altering his stance or grip or sight picture. It seems kind of silly but what the heck do we know? I think JC is right that many of the early autos had "ring" hammers and S&W just copied the style. They probably decided later that it saved a step to element the hole.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

If I went to the range and saw a guy with a string thru the hammer and
the end in his mouth, I would duck and leave. When you shoot, you have all ready lost your sight picture and your grip has changed.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

My Seabee dad once told me about an old chief on the Navy pistol team who tied a string to his 1911 hammer. He'd extend his arm to the "proper" shooting stance and -- pull the trigger, pull the string; pull the trigger, pull the string -- until he had his desired amount of dry fire practice done.

The hole for a lanyard idea was imagined by the same guys who think the hollow grip in a Glock is to drain water.
Think about it. If you're instructing someone dry firing why are you standing behind them? You can stand next to them and manually cock the hammer if that's what you're wanting to do. You aren't instructing anyone standing behind them.
Also, has anyone ever seen any training manual anywhere by anyone where they're advocating the string in the hole? Nope.
The string in the hole was thought up by somebody who has never trained anyone in anything related to firearms while sitting in his parent's basement. It's one of those stories where "I don't know what it's for therefore that's sounds plausible." No, it doesn't sound plausible if anyone has done any actual instructing.
Why does the Colt Commander series have a hole in the hammer? Or the Walther PP and variants have a hole in the hammer? None of those are for the lanyard in the hammer either. My Colt Jr, Erma Excam, Iver Johnson TP-22 all have hammers with holes. Does anyone seriously think any of those guns were made that way for a lanyard training purpose?
There is some merit to lightening the hammer to get a quicker lock time. Such is desirable for bullseye guns. For a combat gun not so much which is probably why you don't see it on later versions of the 39. There is something to be said for a lighter hammer and quicker lock time. There's also a lot more chance it's just a design feature of gilding the lilly.

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183rd FBINA

All these many years, I've wondered what mathematicians were talking about when they mentioned "String Theory." Now I know......

Is String Theory the same as String Cheese?

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

Might be something as simple as a locating pin for a fixture to machine the hammer....and someone figure out how to machine it without the locating pin and thereby reduced manufacturing cost.

Robert

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

Hello Robert, good reasoning, sounds logical. Why did they go to a solid hammer in the 39-2 series?

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

The most off beat reason I remember from long ago was that early semi auto pistol designers thought the hole would reduce the vibration harmonics generated from the high speed slamming of the action parts during firing. Thus the hammer was less likely to shatter. I am in no way an engineer, but maybe they were thinking too hard or maybe metallurgy of late 1800s was different. Didn't Smith and Wesson put a little piece of leather in the trigger spring of the Sigma pistol to dampen vibration, thus lengthen the service life of a part known to break?

For those who were so vehemently opposed to the notion that the hole in the hammer could be for anything so ludicrous as a training aid, please allow me to quote from the U.S. Army Basic Field Manual FM 23-35:

(5) To simulate the self-loading action of the automatic
pistol take a strong cord about 4 feet long and tie one end to
the thumbpiece of the hammer, the knot on top. Take a few
turns of the other end of the cord around the thumb or
fingers of the left hand. The cord should be long enough to
permit the left hand to hang naturally at the side while aim
ing the pistol with the right hand, right arm fully extended.

(6) Each time the hammer falls a quick, backward jerk of
the left hand recocks the pistol and at the same time jerks
the sights out of alinement with the bull's-eye. This derange
ment of the alinement corresponds very closely to the jump of
the pistol when actually firing.

(7) If the knot is underneath the hammer or if a very
thick cord is used the hammer will not remain cocked when
jerked back."

I didn't need to search very hard to find this information.

It is right down at the bottom of this thread in the "Similar Threads" box.


Here's a link: model 39: why the hole in the hammer spur?

John

John,
You're my new hero!

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

It's a range finder... Definitely a range finder...

I also know the reason for the hole in the .40 caliber hammers...

But now I'm just braggin'

John

"OIL HERE"

Here's a problem with your theory on the S&W 39. And a problem the basement computer commandos don't think about.
When the Model 39 was developed in 1954 the US military pistol was the 1911. The 1911 and variants did not have a hole in the hammer. So therefore this method would not have been possible at the time the 39 was developed. The S&W 39 was developed in the hope of replacing the 1911 which it did not therefore FM23-35 would not have been written to include such training.
The S&W 39-2 which was developed in the mid 1970s did not have a hole in the hammer. This was still at a time when the Army issue was the 1911 and the S&W 39-2 was not adopted by the military. And there still was no hole in the 1911 hammer.
It was not until 1988 when the Beretta M9 was adopted by the military was a service pistol with a hole in the hammer. This was 35 years after the S&W 39 was developed and almost 20 years after the no-hole 39-2 went production.
So this FM 23-35 as 'proof' is not proof of anything. Just more keyboard commando trying to make their theory fit.
I was in command of the small arms training for several years and taught small arms training, both Army and USAF during my 26 years. I also shot on the state National Guard combat rifle and pistol team for several years.
The "string" was never used and I would have removed any instructor who attempted it. Too great of a risk of jerking the gun out of the trainee's hand.
I don't doubt some knucklehead 'instructor' uses the string method. But then there are instructors in the US who think it smart to do live fire training while walking between the shooter and the target to instill "stress while firing". Dummies with a go-pro, firing range, and a youtube connection are still dummies.

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183rd FBINA

I don't understand all the hostility and "computer commando" BS. The pistol that Colt was submitting for the mid-1950s trails was the Commander with a hole in the hammer. Perhaps it was there to facilitate the training methodology specified in FM23-35. I really don't have any emotional equity in this but the manual is pretty clear.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

There may be a problem with his theory about the hole in the 39 hammer, relative to timelines, but there also appears to be a problem with your statements that it was never included in any training - since his quote is directly from an Army Field Training Manual. Apparently YOU never saw anyone use a string for dry fire training, but that doesn't mean the Army never specified, approved, or used the method.

If the Army went to the trouble to specify it as a training method in one of their field training manuals I think it is pretty safe to say some people must have used that method somewhere at some point in time.

Never say never - 'cause never is a long time.

All the kerfluffle about the string theory of dry fire training aside, I want to see a picture of the hole the OP describes. Because he calls it a PIN hole, I'm thinking he is talking about something other than a hammer with a round spur that has a hole through it.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

I'll be honest I have never seen this method used. That being said, I first heard of the string being used with 1911s long before there was an internet. A string could be tied around the spur of a standard 1911 hammer. A hole is required in a rounded hammer (e.g. commander style).

I have no idea if this is the origin of the hole in a commander style hammer. I have no idea if this carried over to the Model 39.

That the hole was used to facilitate manufacturing and later found useful for the "string method" of training aren't mutually exclusive. After all, the cans my C rats came in made a pretty useful stove in the field. Nothing wrong with multi-purposing, officially or otherwise.

A hole in a round hammer has been used since the late 1800’s European semi auto pistols first gained acceptance, most round hammers thereafter have had the hole, I doubt seriously it was included to hang a rope from.

I think the hole was there simply because it looks good.

Since you probably didn't know it but the Colt Commander was not adopted by the US military either. So much for your theory.
There's a lot of other autos manufactured, I named a few, that had/have holes in the hammer that were never US military issued firearms.
Just because someone adopted some method does not mean that was the purpose of the hole.

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183rd FBINA

Because there's too many internet commandos who come up with this kind of stuff and then push themselves off as some kind of expert. When they've never been in the military, never done any serious training, and never trained a single person. They sit in their basement and imagine something as fact then go around spouting it off until they get some other unknowing person to believe them. Then the myth is continued until to unknowing masses accept it as fact without ever knowing a thing about it. And those are the internet commandos. Gun shows and gun magazines are full of them. They become 'experts' not because they actually have done anything or know anything but because they claim themselves to be 'experts'.

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183rd FBINA

You learn something new every day hanging out here, even if sometimes it is obscure and seems implausible. Regardless of what the hole in the hammer is REALLY for on the 39/39-2 pistols this has been a spirited, lively and interesting discussion.

Carry on, please.

I agree to a certain extent--plausible but unsubstantiated assertions get repeated and become quasi-facts. However:

a) the opposite is also true sometimes, i.e. just because someone has a military or law enforcement background they think they are experts at everything, including history.
b) I didn't see anyone in this thread claim expertise, except you.
c) we have many serious collectors and students of history on this forum. To paint them all with such a broad brush and with undeserved vehemence is unfortunate and unnecessary.

There is no question that much of history, be it training methods or military doctrine in general, seems silly with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. The same military manual shows the old "cup and saucer" method of a two handed hold on a pistol and lots of other positions and techniques that have been revised. But the documentation is there for use of a lanyard around the hammer for dry firing practice.

I went back and looked at the original patent for the S&W Automatic 9mm Pistol. The hole in the hammer is in the original drawings but there is no mention of it in the description or the patent claims.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

I first read about the string/hammer trick 40+ years ago in a short blurb in The American Rifleman responding to the question of why some 1911 spur hammers had been found with small holes drilled vertically through the spur.

I think the string/dryfire theory is completely plausible. I was military and teach LE, started in 2000 with the Beretta.

We would dryfire with an instructor/fellow student standing to the primary side of the "shooter", who would briskly hand cycle the slide by gripping the underside, front of the slide. This was fairly easy with the Beretta because of it's scalloped front end.

figured out how to machine it without the hole?

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

First, I never said the U.S. military adopted the Colt Commander (I'm aware they did not).

Second, I made it quite clear I did not know the reason for the hole in the hammer.

Third, using a piece of cord to cock the hammer of a 1911 or 1911A1 is not my theory. This is well documented. As recently as 1960, the Army was still advocating this technique for training in FM 25-35 and the Air Force in AFM 50-17. That was just from a quick search. The Marines suggested 550 cord through the hole in the hammer to aid cocking an M9 while wearing gloves. That tidbit is in MCRP 3-01B, page 1-11. They even included a picture.

Hey, I'm just trying to enjoy a light discussion on a gun forum.

The hole is obviously used a a gauging method for common sense.

I'm not saying this answer sounds far fetched but it does sound just like some Cock & Bull explanation I would make up and tell my little girl when she asked me questions I couldn't answer .

My Dad once told me ...never tell a kid you don't know ...tell them something even if it's a whopper story ... You don't have to know everything ... just act like you do ...have an answer for every question !

I think you been talking to my Dad !

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Certified Cajun
NRA Member

3 Observations:
1. I stand corrected (post 3) in that all 39-2 hammers were the same based on Army field Manuals instructions... FMJ although that leads me to...

2. Where are all the pics of this hole? I am post #49... Not 1 pic of this hole in the hammer? There should be someone who has a pic of a pic at least. Even searching an old post from 2010 referenced the FMJ but no pics.

3 And finally ... 49 posts and 3 days since our OP his posted his question to start this thread. He hasn't been heard from since. OP are you there ? Do you have a pic?

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John 1:17
NRA Life Benefactor

Here's an image from an earlier thread:

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208