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Old 01-09-2021, 01:49 PM
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Default 457 - And a girl who can shoot!

Last week I was working the counter at the range. A young lady came in, carrying a Glock case. She wanted a box of 45s. One of the other instructors who was also working the counter asked her if she had ever shot a 45.

The instructor is a good all around fellow who is very experienced. All of it military. And he made a big and common mistake among "gun guys". He prejudged the shooter. Based on her small size, small hands and the fact she was female. It surprised me, a little.

Anyways, this tiny woman took his question well and she smiled and said "Oh yes! I've shot this Glock 21 a few times." Glock 21 - which belonged to her brother and was almost as big as her. And she can shoot it too! 3 inch groups out to 20 yards. But she admitted it was too big for her. She wanted a small 45, to carry. As the smallest 45 we have for rent is an m&p compact, I told her that she should try to find a range that had a G36 or a CW45 for her to rent.

The other instructor told her he had a G36 that he would loan her (see - he is a good fellow! ) and I told her I had a CS45 and a 457 she could borrow to try. She signed up with me for a lesson and I brought both pistols. She liked them both. She thought the CS45 - wearing the excellent TercGen grips with a rubber grip sleeve - was too much for her small hands to shoot well. Even though she had no problems maintaining the 10 ring on a B27 with it.

But my BMCM customized 457, with Novak night sights and OEM grip, also with a rubber grip sleeve, was just the pistol she was looking for. She shot it VERY well. In fact, she shot the 457 better than I do. Which made me grin and make a mental note to work with that gun some more! That tiny girl got more than one cloverleaf ragged hole in the B27 with the 457. At 3, 5 and 7 yards, she didn't miss. She did vertical string shots a few times. But I attributed that to her getting tired, hand fatigue and maybe a little bit of recoil anticipation.

So, she will be back next week. To shoot the G36 and she asked me to bring the 457 again. I did caution her that the 457 had some work done and she would not find one EXACTLY like it, but they were out there. For rather ridiculous prices, currently.

The thing I walked away with from the encounter with this tiny female, new shooter was this - reinforcement of my belief in not prejudging things. Don't prejudge the shooter OR the pistol. Most handguns are FAR more accurate than the people shooting them. And tiny little people can handle hand cannons too! IF they so choose.

I have always regarded the 457 as an overlooked and highly underated 45. The young womans reaction to it reinforced that view too. And yes, I will be practicing with the 457 more in the coming weeks - "onset Arthur-ritus" be damned. I mean, who wants to be bested with their own pistol.......by a girl. Regards 18DAI
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Old 01-09-2021, 02:11 PM
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Nice post. The one thing that I walked away with from reading this post is that I'm probably going to have to ask TerGen to make me a set of grips for my CS9.

Thanks, Pal.

Actually, the other thing is maybe it's time for me to bring one of my 457s to the range more often. I do like shooting them.
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Old 01-09-2021, 02:21 PM
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Gals generally shoot better than guys. Better "digital dexterity"?
Seen it too many times, 'teaching' gals to shoot.
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Old 01-09-2021, 02:34 PM
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Gals generally shoot better than guys.
I had a somewhat anti-gun girlfriend once who would sit on a bench behind me and read while I was shooting at the range. When asked if she wanted to shoot, she would nonchalantly put a magazine of 9BPLE through my Walther P88C into the 10-ring and then go back to reading. Some just get it (although she didn't really care).
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Old 01-09-2021, 04:09 PM
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Maybe because they don't grow up watching shows on TV and learning the wrong way to do it. Thus, they listen to the instructor.

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Gals generally shoot better than guys. Better "digital dexterity"?
Seen it too many times, 'teaching' gals to shoot.
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Old 01-09-2021, 04:14 PM
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I like my 457's too , I have 3 of them . My wife sounds about the same size as that girl and she shoots my 457 as well as my 845 and 945 . She's been around guns most of her life and isn't intimidated by them . Her favorite though is her 3913LS worked over by BMCM . I really need to send him her 3914LS also , but I understand he's busier than all get out . That's what happens when you do excellent work and treat people right .
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Old 01-09-2021, 04:58 PM
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Another good story from a really good story teller!

Seriously, 18, you have a unique style and, as I've said before, you should write professionally!

(Although, sometimes, making your avocation your vocation, can take some of the fun out of it.

Ask me about the motorcycle business. )

I agree with you, pre-judgement is rife with come-uppance!

My only question about the story is that the shooter found the TercGen CS45 grip with sleeve to be too large for her hands, yet found the 457 grip with sleeve much better.

Is not the 457 grip the same as the modified TercGen CS45 grip?

(Rhetorical question. I know they are the same. The TercGen CS45 grip is just a little shorter on the bottom.)

So, to what do you ascribe this seeming contradiction?

John?
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Old 01-09-2021, 07:14 PM
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This past summer I was waiting for a group of friends to show up at the trap range. I watched a tiny little gal walk out by herself and start a round of clay busting. She missed 1 of 25. She shook her arm a bit, stepped back and filled her shell pouch and started another round. About midway through a guy walked up and we started chatting. I asked if he was dad or coach. He said both. The second round she missed zero. When she stepped back to where dad and I were talking I could clearly see her beat up shoulder since she was in a tank top. When I say tiny, I would guess under 5 foot and 90lbs dripping wet. Turns out she took nationals for High School girls. I continue to see here out there now and then. She was nice as could be and shook my hand like meeting any other shooter on the range. Hope to see her in the Olympics one day soon. Just glad there was no money rounds going on since I only average around 21-22. Never judge a book by the cover.
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Old 01-09-2021, 07:50 PM
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JohnHL the CS45 wears a chopped up Hogue grip sleeve - "Glock sock" with palm swells and back strap cusioning rubber. Slightly thicker and bigger in circumference than the thin, textured rubber grip sleeve on the 457. By virtue of the palm swells alone. Makes the CS45 fit MY hand and gives me more control when shooting. But still thinner than the OEM Hogues that originally came on it. The "...too much for her small hands to shoot well...." was more in reference to the CS45 shooting characteristics than the grip size.

Also, she didn't care for the....violent recoil of the slightly smaller CS45. She described the feel of the CS45 as "chunky". I can see that. Even with the TecGen grip improvement, the "feel" of the CS45 - vice the 457 is more "weight centered" over the top of the shooting hand.

Where the 457 (which was a Goldilocks gun for her ) has a slight muzzle heavy feel in comparison. And IMO points better. Mine has better, easier to see in all light conditions, sights too. Thanks again BMCM!

As an instructor I certainly agree that females, generally, shoot better than males (that have never shot before either). And they have no bad habits! And they DO listen and are open to constructive criticism as well.

Plus, a very few of them are fun to stand behind and watch shoot. Regards 18DAI
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Old 01-09-2021, 08:52 PM
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A few years ago my wife and I were woodchuck hunting the farm of an old friend. He's a very macho dude (an ex Army Ranger) and big too. One day he came down to a field we were checking-out and he spotted a chuck. It was my wife's turn to shoot (5' 2"; 110lbs) and she immediately grabbed her Remington Mod. 7 (youth) in .223; she asked where he saw it. He said:"Oh it's way way out there Caryl". She repeated "where".... Well, it's not the end of this field, and not the end of the next field, it's at the end of the third field in the left hand corner. She lifted her rifle (she only shoots off-hand; no rest for her) and stood UNDER his left armpit while he looked thru his binocs. One shot. He puts his binocs down and says...it's impossible, but she may have hit it; you know the rules "no body; no kill". So we tramped out there while he stayed by the truck with his range finder. We held up the dead chuck and when we got back, he told us the reading was 297 yards. She's done shots like that since then; she never even saw a gun until she turned 49 when she met me. You gotta love her.
J.

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Old 01-09-2021, 09:26 PM
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Great stories here. My wife used to be a pretty impressive shot with a Bersa 380. She walks with a cane now and her vision isn't great. She could probably still out shoot me though.
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Old 01-09-2021, 09:47 PM
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Love the good stories from the store and range! 18 always has great stories. I was gonna say that more eloquently but stinkin’ JohnHL used all my words before I got here, sheeesh.
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Old 01-10-2021, 12:55 AM
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We’re you purposely holding out with her by not letting her “try” either one of your non-railed 45 TSW’s?

I’d like to hear about her impression of those.

I’ve said this here before but my wife, (of too many years now,) seems to be able to out score me most of the time. I practice more than her and I know I try harder, but she usually does better while seemingly not to care.

Jim
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Old 01-10-2021, 01:24 AM
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No 4T5GUY, the customers don't get to shoot the "good stuff". Just the easily replaced working/teaching guns.

And my friend Jeppo gave me some sage advice recently. Buy a current production gun to teach with. Keeps the wear and tear off of my guns and is easier for them to find and purchase.

So, I have my dealer keeping an eye out for a few different makes and models. Once I have that pistol, I'll be the only one shooting my guns.
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Old 01-10-2021, 01:53 AM
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A firearms instructor friend of mine, an Asian woman, has such small fingers she normally fits two fingers into the top finger groove of most grips. She's a distinguished expert and a couple of years ago made command pilot for helicopters.
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Old 01-10-2021, 04:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajgunner View Post
This past summer I was waiting for a group of friends to show up at the trap range. I watched a tiny little gal walk out by herself and start a round of clay busting. She missed 1 of 25. She shook her arm a bit, stepped back and filled her shell pouch and started another round. About midway through a guy walked up and we started chatting. I asked if he was dad or coach. He said both. The second round she missed zero. When she stepped back to where dad and I were talking I could clearly see her beat up shoulder since she was in a tank top. When I say tiny, I would guess under 5 foot and 90lbs dripping wet. Turns out she took nationals for High School girls. I continue to see here out there now and then. She was nice as could be and shook my hand like meeting any other shooter on the range. Hope to see her in the Olympics one day soon. Just glad there was no money rounds going on since I only average around 21-22. Never judge a book by the cover.
We have a thriving juniors' program at our club for 3P/4P They at least place every year at nationals. One year we sent 2 teams. They took 1st and 3rd. I LOVE when one of the young ladies hustles an unsuspecting adult in a friendly competition. It makes my day.

I was one of those hustled, way back when. Not too proud to admit that.
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Old 01-10-2021, 09:51 AM
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18

If “violent recoil” was an issue with the CS45, would it be worthwhile putting a CS9 in her hands?
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Old 01-10-2021, 11:26 AM
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Yup! A CS9 is going in her hand, next lesson. And depending when that occurs, maybe a 3913NL too! Regards 18DAI
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Old 01-10-2021, 01:17 PM
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Many years ago I shot lots and lots of skeet.. All American for several years running, etc. It was a serious thing.

We had one gal, I'll call her Margaret (that is her name by the way) who never practiced with us, she just shot league and registered matches. One of the happiest days of my skeet career was when she won a state championship. The grin on her face will always be in my minds eye. It is embarrassing to think of the thousands of dollars down my skeet gun barrels to be thumped by a gal who did not need, nor want to practice. Humbling.

There have been others too, but the stories will be too long. bob
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Old 01-17-2021, 12:44 PM
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I worked with the 457 the last week. Started with the basics - grip, stance, sight alignment and trigger control. You gotta practice what you preach.

I did a good cleaning on the barrel before hand and deep cleaned and lubed the 457, before training with it. The pic below is where I am at with it now. Shot freehand with Federal 230 grain ball. The 457 refuses to group well with WWB or S&B ball.

At anything beyond 7 yards I am still vertical stringing my shots. But as the plastic gun fans are always saying "its not a target pistol!"

The 457 shoots plenty good enough for Government work and I am carrying it regularly both on the range and in the office. Very nice compact 45 and a lot of gun for the money. Even these days! Regards 18DAI
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Old 01-17-2021, 01:31 PM
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When I was ta rangemaster at the PD (120+ officers, about 10% were female officers, mostly in patrol. With one exception, all were generally better shots than the majority of the guys! We (the range staff) used to say that it was because they weren't full of testosterone and not John Wayne-ish.
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Old 01-17-2021, 01:40 PM
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I have a life long friend who has only owned guns for about ten years.

He first bought a 442 and then a Mossberg shotgun. Both acceptable for home defense.

When he got the shotgun, I took him to the range for some familiarization and practice. He'd never fire a shotgun before.

The shotgun "range" at my club is set up mostly for patterning, not much else. Let's say targets are 25 feet away.

I showed him the correct stance and fired a couple of rounds from one of my shotguns. He then took his, ignored what I had demonstrated, and missed the target and said that his shoulder hurt.

I told him that was because he did nothing I had told him and everything that he had seen in movies and on TV over the years.

The second time through, he did what I told him and magically, he hit the target.

Same thing when he shot his 442 and I shot my 642. I mentioned that the safest place to be when he was shooting was standing in front of the target.

He didn't see the humor.
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Old 01-17-2021, 04:11 PM
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Earlier this year I was helping a coworker learn to shoot better. He was working on a NRA B-8 repair center at 25 yards and holding the black well, making round groups and analyzing the good shots.

A early/mid 20-ish woman came in with a compact Sig P320 and started shooting Timed Fire pace on a five target Birchwood-Casey target at 7 or 10 yards a few lanes over. She was making good groups, and when the group opened up, she would concentrate harder and the group would tighten up again. She also did a little happy dance each time she made a good group.

Since she seemed to be shooting well, I invited her to shoot on one of our targets. Her initial response was that at 25 yards it was too far away, but I assured her the same technique and sight picture she used on her targets would work. She again shot a magazine at Timed Fire pace and only had one shot slightly off the edge of the repair center. I noted the date, location and distance on the repair center while commenting that the group looked the same as the groups at shorter range, just opened slightly due to distance. She said she had just started shooting and had bought the Sig and joined the club. I suggested taking a few classes the club offered would work well (there is a female instructor).

And to be skeptical of shooting advice from males.

In this area there are high school shooting teams. I get embarrassed when someone at the indoor range thinks my 25 yard rifle standing offhand group looks good, after seeing what the high school girls shooting 3 Position rifle do.

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Old 01-19-2021, 12:22 AM
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Yup! A CS9 is going in her hand, next lesson. And depending when that occurs, maybe a 3913NL too! Regards 18DAI
Those sound like good choices, and no doubt she'll like them too, but when it comes to women and guns, I'll never forget the most important lesson you've taught me 18DAI - never let them try the 3906!!
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Old 01-19-2021, 06:24 AM
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Great story / lesson ..
I taught my wife to shoot in 2011. Prior to she had never touched a gun. She loved it so much she has her own section of “ her guns” in the safe.
I just taught her the basics. To this day she can out shoot me with any semi Auto I put in her hands. She owns 9mm and 380s but she’s not afraid of any caliber including 10mm.
One day I had the SW 500 with us. My son snd son in law shot it . I asked her if she wanted to try. She took it, and at 15 yards proceeded to lay the 1st shot through the center ( exact center) of a 3” shoot- n -see target. She laid it down and walked away with a grin ear to ear. Never underestimate the size or sex of a person and their ability to handle a firearm. My wife is 5’ 2” small frame and tiny hands.


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Old 01-19-2021, 11:15 AM
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Gals generally shoot better than guys. Better "digital dexterity"?
Seen it too many times, 'teaching' gals to shoot.
I completely agree with this. My two best friends are both female shooters and they both shoot better than I do. Don't tell anyone I said that!
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