Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >

Notices

Smith & Wesson Semi-Auto Pistols Other Smith & Wesson Semi-Automatic Pistols from the 1950's to Present


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-11-2021, 08:07 PM
ElectroMotive ElectroMotive is offline
Member
Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North-Central Texas
Posts: 198
Likes: 34
Liked 80 Times in 42 Posts
Default Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1

In pulling the trigger on my 4506-1:

- DA, when I pull the trigger, if I let off, the hammer will drop. If I pull all the way through, I get a clean 10# Da pull

- SA, I can physically move the trigger forward of its normal position. In SA I get decent 6# pull.


All I have done to this is add a Wolff mainspring and trigger return spring, and I have cleaned up the sear of a nasty burr. Before you say it was me removing that burr, it was doing it BEFORE I removed said burr.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-11-2021, 08:52 PM
Fastbolt's Avatar
Fastbolt Fastbolt is offline
Member
Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1  
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: CA Central Coast
Posts: 4,447
Likes: 825
Liked 5,948 Times in 2,002 Posts
Default

No way to know what's happening with your 4506 without being able to inspect it, but for the purpose of discussion ...

It sounds like a couple of things may be occurring.

First of all, what do mean the "hammer will drop" in DA if you let off the trigger? If you pull back partway and then let the trigger return forward (slowly), the hammer is supposed to go back forward in a controlled manner (not fall).

One of the bench checks an armorer does when installing a new hammer (and drawbar) is to "rock double action". That means to pull the trigger back about halfway (which retracts the hammer in DA), but then let the trigger return forward before the hammer reaches the point where it falls. The hammer should follow the trigger's controlled slow movement forward and backward, and not slip off the drawbar's hooks and just fall forward. This is done 5-6 times to make sure the hammer doesn't slip and fall forward.

If it does slip and fall? It's called No Pick Up DA or Skips DA, and then you're looking at a new hammer, and/or new drawbar, and/or perhaps a new disconnector, or some combination thereof. Either your hammer and/or drawbar DA notches are damaged, worn or otherwise out-of-spec, or the disconnector is out of spec, and the hammer is releasing in DA prematurely.

(The armorer also does a check 5-6 times pulling the trigger all the way to the rear - normally - to make sure the hammer does get released and fall in normal DA.)

I'd also look at the drawbar to see if it's broken. Usually, that means grasping each side and trying to pull it apart. If it's cracked, it'll become apparent when you pull outward on each side. A broken drawbar might occur at either rear corner (especially the older machined versions with the sharp inside corner angles at the rear), or in the middle at the rear, where they used to machine a notch in the back of the tail (behind the disconnector tab ramp). Sharp corners in those older machine cuts could sometimes create stress risers over time and use. A broken drawbar often flexes when pulling the trigger (and hammer) in DA mode, which can sometimes manifest as Skips DA.


In SA, the hammer ought to be able to resist a mild attempt at Push Off. If it doesn't, it's possible the hammer's SA notches are are damaged, worn (rounded) or otherwise out-of-spec. (Might also explain why there was a nasty burr on the sear nose?) Might also be a damaged, worn or out-of-spec sear nose.

Has the hammer ever followed the slide forward, not remaining cocked in SA? Check the sear spring to make sure it's not cracked (lengthwise), is damaged or "curled" at the top, which would reduce tension to hold the sear against the hammer's SA notches.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head. No way to guess what's happening with your gun, though, not being able to have it on the bench.
__________________
Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Last edited by Fastbolt; 01-11-2021 at 09:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 11 Users Like Post:
  #3  
Old 01-11-2021, 09:16 PM
JohnHL JohnHL is online now
SWCA Member
Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1  
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: High Ridge, Mo.
Posts: 2,437
Likes: 6,403
Liked 3,284 Times in 1,356 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectroMotive View Post
In pulling the trigger on my 4506-1:

- DA, when I pull the trigger, if I let off, the hammer will drop. If I pull all the way through, I get a clean 10# Da pull

- SA, I can physically move the trigger forward of its normal position.
If you mean you can wiggle the trigger forward and backward when the hammer is cocked, that usually means the little thin brass "trigger play spring" that is riveted to the top of the drawbar and holds the trigger hooks, is bent or broken.

Beyond that, I defer to Fastbolt's post.

John
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #4  
Old 01-12-2021, 04:47 AM
ElectroMotive ElectroMotive is offline
Member
Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North-Central Texas
Posts: 198
Likes: 34
Liked 80 Times in 42 Posts
Default

OK, so in DA, if I pull the trigger to rear to about 90% of a full trigger pull, and let of the trigger, the sear will trip. It will be as if I pulled the DA trigger 100%. If there was a round in the chamber, it would fire. It does not do this with the slide off.

In SA, if I can push the trigger forward of its normal SA position. Enough so that there is a tactile and audible click.

I can try and post a video, but it will be a day or two.

Last edited by ElectroMotive; 01-12-2021 at 04:48 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-12-2021, 05:54 AM
Fastbolt's Avatar
Fastbolt Fastbolt is offline
Member
Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1  
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: CA Central Coast
Posts: 4,447
Likes: 825
Liked 5,948 Times in 2,002 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectroMotive View Post
OK, so in DA, if I pull the trigger to rear to about 90% of a full trigger pull, and let of the trigger, the sear will trip. It will be as if I pulled the DA trigger 100%. If there was a round in the chamber, it would fire. It does not do this with the slide off.

In SA, if I can push the trigger forward of its normal SA position. Enough so that there is a tactile and audible click.

I can try and post a video, but it will be a day or two.
90% of the normal DA trigger travel?!? Why are you pulling the trigger in DA that far and trying to "let off"? That's a very good way to experience a ND with a loaded gun.

If you pull the trigger in DA mode far enough (which is before the trigger reaches and bottoms out against the frame at the end of its possible travel arc), the drawbar's throw notches are going to cam off the hammer's corresponding DA throw notches and the hammer is going to be released to fall forward. (Sooner, if the throw notches are worn, damaged or there's some other problem.)

The check for "rocking the trigger in DA", which is done with the slide off the frame, doesn't go back nearly that far. Maybe halfway, at the most. Easier to see it demonstrated, and practiced, in a class than to discuss it in text. Armorer students learn right away that if they pull the trigger too far in DA, the hammer is going to fall. (Save that for the other test, confirming the hammer falls in DA as it's supposed to fall when the trigger is fully pulled to rear. )

In SA mode ...

If the trigger can be moved forward a little bit when the hammer/trigger are cocked in SA, a small amount of movement is considered normal. That's "trigger play" which may occur before the trigger hooks engage the drawbar and push it forward to release the hammer. The trigger play spring usually helps to keep that sort of "slop" from occurring, or at least being noticeable.

When the hammer is cocked into SA - with the hammer's SA notches resting on the sear's nose - the trigger's forward "hooks" are positioned forward within the generous area of the drawbar head's V-notch. The points of the "hooks" (or ears or prongs, if you'd rather) may move a bit within the tall and wide drawbar head V-notch.

The movement of the hook's points can manifest at the longer "other end" of the trigger assembly as the potential for a minor back/forth movement. Hence, the role of the trigger play spring in tensioning the trigger in SA. The gun will function normally without the trigger play spring (and some LE guns have been ordered without them installed), but the trigger can have a little bit of loose "wiggle" (slop) in the SA mode.

When the trigger is intentionally pulled in SA, though, the points of the trigger's hooks drop forward into the center of the drawbar head's V-notch and push the drawbar forward. This causes the leading inside edge of the drawbar's tail to contact the rear of the sear and push the top of the sear to pivot forward, pushing the sear nose out from under the hammer's SA notches. SA hammer fall.

Sometimes the tips of the trigger hooks (especially in the .45/10 frames) might end up rising high enough so the they push up just over the top edge of the drawbar head. (Outside the top of the V-notch). Pulling the trigger can result in a "clicking" sound as the points of the hooks drop down over the top edge and go back into the V-notch. Annoying to some owners, but not considered an actual functional "problem" according to the folks at S&W.

Here's a pic I took of the optimal relationship of a trigger play spring holding the trigger hooks forward in the center of the V-notch. This was just done to show the angle of the spring under tension against the rear of the trigger hooks, with the assemblies outside the frame of a gun.


With and without a trigger play spring on the drawbars, to "simulate" the function of the spring to help reduce trigger movement in SA mode. Since we're talking about a pivoting trigger ... if the top of the trigger, the hooks, drops back a bit rearward, that's going to translate into forward movement of the bottom of the trigger.



Trigger hooks may vary a bit, within normal tolerance spec (length, sharpness, roughness of edges, etc), among both machined and MIM triggers. (The flash-chromed trigger marked DA is for an older DAO 3rd gen.)



Here's 3 different drawbars (a couple different calibers/widths), showing the V-notch from another side angle.


Wish I could be there to handle your 4506, and perhaps answer your questions. I'm just a former S&W armorer, though, not a gunsmith. Perhaps you should call around your area and find a gunsmith who is familiar with S&W 3rd gen TDA (DA/SA) guns, to inspect yours to see if everything is in normal, good working condition.
__________________
Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Last edited by Fastbolt; 01-12-2021 at 09:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 10 Users Like Post:
  #6  
Old 01-12-2021, 01:37 PM
ElectroMotive ElectroMotive is offline
Member
Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North-Central Texas
Posts: 198
Likes: 34
Liked 80 Times in 42 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastbolt View Post
90% of the normal DA trigger travel?!? Why are you pulling the trigger in DA that far and trying to "let off"? That's a very good way to experience a ND with a loaded gun.
Cant have an ND if you've never put live ammo in, much less ever fired this gun. I noticed this while dry firing using ST Action snap caps. All of my guns have a dedcaited magazine for snap caps in which no live ammo is allowed in the mag. Often I have said magazine cerakoted blaze orange.

That said, this gun has definitely been fired before. I bought it used 8 weeks ago. It was filthy. Whenever I buy a used gun I always tear down the gun to explore it. See how things works, the engagement surfaces, wear patterns, flaws, etc. I also use the opportunity to clean and lube to my specifications, and I change springs because I dont know the history of wear cycles on them, and they are cheap.

I'll try to take a couple of short videos of the phenomena. I am thinking of heading over to the parts shop and grabbing an extra sear.

The trigger return spring looks to be missing the legs that keep the trigger in place, so that's next on the agenda.

Last edited by ElectroMotive; 01-12-2021 at 01:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Yesterday, 03:44 AM
hammy5150 hammy5150 is online now
Member
Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1  
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Northern California
Posts: 123
Likes: 75
Liked 148 Times in 62 Posts
Default

I don't know if it's the same issue you're having, but I'm experiencing strange DA behavior in my 4566TSW that seems to be roughly in the same ballpark. With Promags loaded the DA pull seems a lot more abrupt and will trip the sear a lot earlier than I feel it normally should. SA is unaffected and it doesn't happen at all with factory mags loaded. I wonder if the promags are just out of spec and interfering with the trigger somehow.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Yesterday, 08:20 AM
stansdds stansdds is offline
Member
Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 4,448
Likes: 5,577
Liked 5,231 Times in 2,554 Posts
Default

You take a lot of chances with ProMag magazines. They could be out of spec or the body is thin and more flexible than factory mags, so a full ProMag swells a bit.
__________________
VCDL, GOA, NRA
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #9  
Old Yesterday, 10:26 AM
Frank Black's Avatar
Frank Black Frank Black is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: midwest
Posts: 162
Likes: 204
Liked 207 Times in 90 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stansdds View Post
You take a lot of chances with ProMag magazines. They could be out of spec or the body is thin and more flexible than factory mags, so a full ProMag swells a bit.
Promags are junk, but useful nonetheless.

They test your ability to diagnose and perform immediate remedial service on your pistol during a gunfight.

Remember, the one-way firing range is theory; the two-way range is reality.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #10  
Old Yesterday, 12:24 PM
hammy5150 hammy5150 is online now
Member
Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1  
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Northern California
Posts: 123
Likes: 75
Liked 148 Times in 62 Posts
Default

Messing around with them one will prevent the trigger from functioning in double action entirely. At least their warranty support seems receptive.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old Yesterday, 01:11 PM
JohnHL JohnHL is online now
SWCA Member
Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1  
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: High Ridge, Mo.
Posts: 2,437
Likes: 6,403
Liked 3,284 Times in 1,356 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hammy5150 View Post
I don't know if it's the same issue you're having, but I'm experiencing strange DA behavior in my 4566TSW that seems to be roughly in the same ballpark. With Promags loaded the DA pull seems a lot more abrupt and will trip the sear a lot earlier than I feel it normally should. SA is unaffected and it doesn't happen at all with factory mags loaded. I wonder if the promags are just out of spec and interfering with the trigger somehow.
During Double Action, the sear has no function in dropping the hammer.

It's all drawbar hooks and hammer notches.

It is possible an out of spec magazine body can rub on the drawbar and restrict the drawbar's movement and prevent the drawbar plunger spring from pivoting the drawbar up tight against the bottom of the hammer, causing it to slip off of the hammer notches and create a "skips Double Action" condition.

John
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #12  
Old Yesterday, 05:08 PM
HCH HCH is offline
Member
Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1 Problem With Trigger On My 4506-1  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Hancock County Ohio
Posts: 709
Likes: 2,426
Liked 522 Times in 235 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastbolt View Post
90% I'm just a former S&W armorer, though, not a gunsmith.

A very modest armorer at that. I can't begin to say how much your contributions to this forum have helped me to understand the workings of my S&W pistols.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #13  
Old Yesterday, 05:13 PM
Frank Black's Avatar
Frank Black Frank Black is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: midwest
Posts: 162
Likes: 204
Liked 207 Times in 90 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HCH View Post
A very modest armorer at that. I can't begin to say how much your contributions to this forum have helped me to understand the workings of my S&W pistols.
Fastbolt knows his 3rd Gens, that's for sure.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My first Smith, trigger problem. Need advice. 10/23 Problem solved. ccjcc81 S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 92 12-19-2015 07:09 PM
4506 problem baldmedic Smith & Wesson Semi-Auto Pistols 9 05-21-2013 08:34 PM
4506 Single Action mode Trigger Problem brushy bill Smith & Wesson Semi-Auto Pistols 9 05-01-2012 05:45 PM
Problem with my 4506-1 c3 rolling Smith & Wesson Semi-Auto Pistols 6 03-05-2011 05:15 PM
4506-1 problem Center Villian S&W-Smithing 5 11-30-2009 02:19 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:30 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.42 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)