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Old 02-19-2021, 09:12 AM
Cool Manchu Cool Manchu is offline
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I bought these years ago thinking I’d stumbled upon factory S&W mags that had already had the “bumps” removed for a 4013 that had been converted to 10mm.

Uncovered them in the drawer the other day and it dawned on me... I think all S&W 10xx third-gens used 9rd magazines.

These are definitely marked “8” and I’ve tried to load one more. I can’t.

What gives? Any and all insight welcome.
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Old 02-19-2021, 12:23 PM
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Those are definitely 10XX mags since they are marked as such and have 8 holes (all of these were 9 rounders with 8 holes - white or yellow followers - flat base plates). There are a few extended + capacity FBI mags floating around but these aren't those.

I suspect if you pull the pinky extension off and inspect the follower/spring/mag body you'll find out why you can't load 9. Perhaps 2 flat baseplates are all you need. It would make no sense if someone fiddled with the mag body and did something to "pin" it to only 8 rounds. If you have another 10XX mag, a punch, and 5 mins, I would just swap parts and see whats up.

Hope this helps
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Old 02-19-2021, 01:58 PM
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That is a good thought, SVT, and I had considered it myself. While I no longer have any other 10xx mags with which to I could compare today, I’ve had these two apart and they appear to be no different than any other factory 3rd gen mag I recall disassembling. I’m going to try and add a pic disassembled.

Curiously, I can’t think of a 10xx mag I’ve seen that doesn’t have a witness hole marked “9” that’s below the (now removed) bump, but maybe I’m just not as well-versed in 10xx mag variations as I should be.
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Old 02-19-2021, 03:59 PM
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Yea, where I could see confusion is all 10XX mags have 8 holes yet are marked 9 rounds. The holes are numbered 2-9 since the first round sits where the follower does with an unloaded mag.

I'd bet a shiny nickel that the 4013/4014 single stack pinky ext base plates are the culprit. I know when I look at a flat plate for a 4506 mag vs a pinky ext plate from a 4516 mag, the pinky plate sticks a little further into the mag body when slid onto the bottom. Just that little extra space is probably why you can't get round number 9 in. Looking on Midway, you can get the flat base plates for about $3 a piece I'd order 2

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Old 02-19-2021, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
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Those are definitely 10XX mags since they are marked as such and have 8 holes (all of these were 9 rounders with 8 holes - white or yellow followers - flat base plates).
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Am I the only that that is counting 7 witness holes?
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Old 02-19-2021, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
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Am I the only that that is counting 7 witness holes?

Correct.

Here is my 1006, with the standard 9 rounder and an FBI 15 rounder.

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Old 02-19-2021, 06:17 PM
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Whoops, maybe I need to learn how to count again. Sorry OP for any confusion. I just glanced at your pictures and went a grabbed one of my 10XX mags to see whats up. I can faintly see a 10mm roll mark on the mag body. Looks factory. Maybe these were test mags for a 10XX in a smaller package? I'm sure Sevens will chime in soon with a much better opinion than mine on this. At a minimum, I'm sure he can count the correct amount of witness holes. *Facepalm*

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Old 02-19-2021, 06:32 PM
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You may very well be on to something, SVT28, and I will likely pick up a flat base plate to see whether it’ll allow for a ninth round, but what still has me puzzled is the missing 8th witness hole marked with a “9.” As clang444 pointed out, there are only 7 witness holes in my mags with the bottom one marked “8.” Just like every other standard 10xx mag I’ve ever seen, Screwball’s 9-rounder has 8 witness holes marked “2” through “9” with “9” being below the bump. My mag has only 7 witness holes marked “2” through “8” with no hole below the bump.
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Old 02-19-2021, 06:34 PM
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Hah! No worries, SVT28. I saw you latest post only after I replied. Looking forward to Sevens take.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVT28 View Post
Whoops, maybe I need to learn how to count again. Sorry OP for any confusion. I just glanced at your pictures and went a grabbed one of my 10XX mags to see whats up. I can faintly see a 10mm roll mark on the mag body. Looks factory. Maybe these were test mags for a 10XX in a smaller package? I'm sure Sevens will chime in soon with a much better opinion than mine on this. At a minimum, I'm sure he can count the correct amount of witness holes. *Facepalm*

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Old 02-19-2021, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Screwball View Post
Correct.
Here is my 1006, with the standard 9 rounder and an FBI 15 rounder.
The 'standard' 9-rd 10mm mags had eight holes in the side of the body, not seven.
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Old 02-19-2021, 07:33 PM
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The 'standard' 9-rd 10mm mags had eight holes in the side of the body, not seven.
Correct... which is why I pointed out that clang444 did count 7 holes.

The picture has a standard 9 round 10mm magazine for reference.
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Old 02-19-2021, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
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Am I the only that that is counting 7 witness holes?
That is what I was seeing but I kind of blew through here in the process of heading out to the shop. I figured we had plenty of expertise here and I must be missing something. Now, still following to see what is going on.
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Old 02-20-2021, 01:31 AM
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Not only are they 8 rounders, but they also look shorter than the standard 9 round 10mm mags. I'm not familiar with any mid-sized frame 10mm guns from S&W, so if I were to speculate, they are for some type of experimental 10mm semi-compact that never made it into production.

Who knows, maybe S&W made up a few "1013s" for testing but killed the project when the 10mm lost favor and was discontinued...
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Old 02-20-2021, 04:48 AM
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Interesting magazines.

Too bad you don't have a regular 10mm mag to compare it to.

Is the front face of the mags stamped with MS1 or ES1? Can't tell.

1006 magazines have the mag catches on each sides, same for the 4013 magazines, while 45ACP magazines only have it on one.

1006 magazines have the lock-out nub/bump centered in the middle of the side (front to back) while a 4013 magazine has it more towards the front edge of the magazine, 45ACP magazines have none.

And 4013 have the crimp/welds on the rear edge of the magazine's body to hold the spacer in.

Your magazines look nothing like 4013 for the above reasons.

Your lock-out nub/bumps are centered on the side so that's like on a 10mm, except someone removed them (maybe so they could work in a 4013/1013 as you already suggested).

4013 & 4516 finger rest base plates "look" the same from the side but they're not. (see side view pic below)

Those finger rest bases in your pic #3 & #4 "appear" to be 4516's from what I can see because the thickness between the bottom of the mag body & the bottom of the finger rest base is thinner on 4516 mags. It's almost twice as thick on 4013 finger rest base plates. (see edge view pic below with arrows)

Both 4013 & 4516 are numbered with 2-8 holes.

Your side views are only of the right sides (180 degrees opposite).

Does the left sides have AccuGuide stamped on them?

How many turns in your magazine springs? Kinda looks like (11)?

1006 magazine spring have (12) turns, 4506 magazine springs have (13), while my original (green tint?) 4013 magazine spring
has (11) turns.

4013 magazines (metal part of the body) measure ~4.20" tall on the rear/back edge while the 1006 magazines measure ~4.80".

What do yours measure?

Sure seems like they could have been prototype magazines for a factory 1013 test pistol.

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Last edited by BLUEDOT37; 02-20-2021 at 05:55 AM. Reason: .add
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Old 02-20-2021, 09:03 AM
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Bluedot37, that is one impressive presentation! Thank you. It appears I may have posted the same pic twice. Apologies. I’ll see if I can fix (fixed 2/20 @ 0807).

The mags are marked MS1 on the front. No “Accu-Guide” on the left, just the S&W TM with “10 MM” above it same as on the right side. Each spring has 12 coils (10 full, 2 ends). The back of the mag body measures 4.35” from the valley between the feed lips to the base.

Last edited by Cool Manchu; 02-20-2021 at 09:08 AM.
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Old 02-21-2021, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool Manchu View Post
I bought these years ago thinking I’d stumbled upon factory S&W mags that had already had the “bumps” removed for a 4013 that had been converted to 10mm.

Uncovered them in the drawer the other day and it dawned on me... I think all S&W 10xx third-gens used 9rd magazines...

Modified 4506 mags were used on the first 1006s...according to this article anyway...

The development of the 1006

early mag shown on this page.

The development of the 1006-1006-1-008-jpg
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Old 02-22-2021, 03:45 AM
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Yeah, but his magazines don't look like the prototype mags.

And his is shorter than a standard 1006 mag & had lock-out nubs at one time, 45 mags never had them.

But they may have been prototypes for a 1013. That's the question I think we're at now.

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Old 02-22-2021, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37 View Post
Yeah, but his magazines don't look like the prototype mags.

And his is shorter than a standard 1006 mag & had lock-out nubs at one time, 45 mags never had them.

But they may have been prototypes for a 1013. That's the question I think we're at now.
I'm thinking that's the answer too.

A model 1013 was in the works, as the 10mm alternative to the 4513, before S&W stupidly canned the whole 10mm program in 3rd Gen line-up.

Obviously it would've fed rounds off a shorter mag body than the full-size 10XX guns.
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Old 02-23-2021, 02:30 AM
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Yeah. I've got at least one 1006 mag that I "de-nubbed" to test in my 1013 & this 4013 mag that I had to "de-nub" when I was trying to make the 1016 feed reliably.

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