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  #51  
Old 12-22-2021, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by F75gunslinger View Post
I would have at least shot the gun first to see how it did. I've seen guns with lots of work shoot mediocre groups and I've seen guns with a bore that looks like 5 miles of dirt road shoot cloverleafs. It all depends on the gun.
Earlier this year I bought a Uberti S&W No.3 replica, and the inside of the bore had several cosmetic issues. I hemmed and hawed over returning it, but then when I shot it I discovered it actually grouped better than my other Ubertis. In the end I decided to just leave it as-is.

Not giving advice to the OP here however. Pride of ownership is a significant factor in owning a firearm, and it's hard to be giddy over a new gun with a bore that looks like the surface of the Moon under magnification. Call S&W back and let them know you're not happy with the repair work performed (assuming they even did anything) and go from there.

BTW S&W is no stranger to making poor-quality barrels. I bought one of the first M&P .22 Compacts to be sold, and the thing leaded terribly until I finally ran enough JB bore compound through it to polish up the inside of the barrel.
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  #52  
Old 12-22-2021, 10:00 PM
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Looks like they just sent you your old barrel back after paying "lip service" to you and the "repair". You might want to punch some VERY small and indistinguishable (to anybody but you) tell-tale marks in a very obscure location, send the gun back and see if that marked barrel comes back to you...
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  #53  
Old 12-23-2021, 01:17 AM
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Looks like itís badly leaded. Thatís likely due to a rough bore. Use a stainless steel brush and shoot it a lot with copper plated ammo to see if it polishes out. If not send it back for replacing. My new PC 41 has been working well with no issues.


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  #54  
Old 12-23-2021, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by 350mag View Post
Looks like itís badly leaded. Thatís likely due to a rough bore. Use a stainless steel brush and shoot it a lot with copper plated ammo to see if it polishes out. If not send it back for replacing. My new PC 41 has been working well with no issues.
It is not leading; it left the factory that way - twice. And the "uglies" survived two deep cleanings by me. Those flaws are indeed in the steel.

I am emailing S&W to seek a replacement barrel or entirely new Model 41 (that has actually passed some meaningful quality control), and failing their agreement, them simply buying it back from me (I had them do so before on another flub of theirs). S&W is closed for the holidays, so I won't have any news until after the new year.
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  #55  
Old 12-23-2021, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
Earlier this year I bought a Uberti S&W No.3 replica, and the inside of the bore had several cosmetic issues. I hemmed and hawed over returning it, but then when I shot it I discovered it actually grouped better than my other Ubertis. In the end I decided to just leave it as-is.

Not giving advice to the OP here however. Pride of ownership is a significant factor in owning a firearm, and it's hard to be giddy over a new gun with a bore that looks like the surface of the Moon under magnification. Call S&W back and let them know you're not happy with the repair work performed (assuming they even did anything) and go from there.

BTW S&W is no stranger to making poor-quality barrels. I bought one of the first M&P .22 Compacts to be sold, and the thing leaded terribly until I finally ran enough JB bore compound through it to polish up the inside of the barrel.
Thanks for your comments; you are right about the "pride" part - in my head a Model 41 just should have such issues. I would have recurring nightmares if I kept this pistol "as is".
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  #56  
Old 12-23-2021, 04:54 PM
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Nothing from S&W surprises me these days...
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  #57  
Old 12-23-2021, 05:07 PM
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I had a m41 35 years ago when they could be had for 375$. I would not say that the one in your pics is worth that now in today's bucks.
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  #58  
Old 12-23-2021, 05:22 PM
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OP,

I am shocked at how S&W is handling this. It looks like steel chips were embedded in the barrel as the rifling was cut.

While relining the barrel is an option, it is NOT an option that I would consider for a brand new pistol! You paid good, hard earned money for a brand new, expensive pistol that is supposed to be a top end target pistol.

What I would consider doing is sharing your barrel photos with either Bartlein, Kreiger, Douglas, Hart or Wilson (well known manufacturers of match grade rifle barrels) and seek their professional opinion as to what you are seeing as damage, and present that opinion when you reach out to S&W CS ... stack the cards in your favor!
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  #59  
Old 12-23-2021, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by 6string View Post
If it was my m41, I'd get the barrel relined by a gunsmith who specializes in custom work for Bullseye pistol.
I recommend Alex Hamilton of Ten Ring Precision, Jerry Keefer, or David Sams.
These guys have great reputations and regularly do this work. For serious target shooting most m41s these days need this type of custom work. Typically costs about $200.
Huh?
Buy a pistol for $1400 and then ship it out to be relined for $200 and probably void any warranty?
I donít agree at all.
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  #60  
Old 12-23-2021, 06:35 PM
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Smith and Wesson 22 handguns seem to be hit or miss. Most are faultless out of the box; others seem to enjoy trips to the "Mothership" for adjustment. All have been worth the effort once broken in. Sorry for the aggravation after such anticipation, also thanks for taking the quality hit for the rest of us. I have been very lucky with this Model 22S.
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  #61  
Old 12-23-2021, 07:18 PM
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Sorry to hear your having issues with your new 41. I love my old one, but it is old, as old as me actually. Hope you get it fixed by the factory.
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  #62  
Old 12-23-2021, 07:32 PM
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They probably shot it, saw that it grouped fine, and sent it back.

Have you fired it yourself?
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  #63  
Old 12-23-2021, 07:48 PM
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Anyone know the current method S&W uses to rifle the Model 41 barrels? Could the imperfections in the barrel be due to an error either during, or while using an incorrect ECM/EDM procedure?

I can't imagine an artifact in a barrel looking like that after broach cutting or hammer forging, etc. Looks to me like the imperfections are on the surface of the bore, and on the lands??

Please excuse my ignorance of the techniques used in the various and currently used rifling processes.
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  #64  
Old 12-23-2021, 09:31 PM
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Sorry for the aggravation after such anticipation, also thanks for taking the quality hit for the rest of us.
Ha! That made me laugh...y'all are welcome.
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  #65  
Old 12-23-2021, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
They probably shot it, saw that it grouped fine, and sent it back.

Have you fired it yourself?
No - for two reasons:

everything you/they see is solely by their doing - factory new quality/condition. I think that's better positioning than, "yeah - I shot a brick through it...now replace _______"


And, I paid almost $1400 for something that looks like it has tiny petrified dino poop in the barrel - I ain't havin' it.
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  #66  
Old 12-29-2021, 06:14 PM
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Default Follow-up email sent to S&W

Today I sent a follow-up email to S&W; it's self explanatory. Tried to be more polite than I feel, I'll keep y'all updated...
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  #67  
Old 12-29-2021, 09:07 PM
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Default Disappointed

Your communication sounds reasonable and polite to me. I sincerely hope your concerns are addressed and resolved.

Based on my recent (last 10 years) experience with the company and "Customer Service", I have been baffled more times than I have been satisfied.
Apparently, communication skills are not accounted for when workers are appointed to positions where they actually have to speak with paying consumers.
Miscommunications, slow to no responses to reasonable questions, incomplete and incorrect explanations on repair forms, failure to recognize and successfully repair notable reported problems.....the list goes on and on.

Quality control has apparently been delegated to the remaining consumers. In recent years, I have purchased a NIB revolver that would not function, which is truly alarming from a safety standpoint. This clearly indicates that they are no longer routinely, without exception, inspecting, function testing and test firing every example of every model prior to shipping.

It's a shame, and disappointing, but based on my own "recent" experiences, and the experiences that others have reported here on the forum, I will no longer send any of my firearms to them....for any reason.
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  #68  
Old 12-29-2021, 09:24 PM
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It looks like leading to me also. Perhaps it was a “loaner” gun to some writer or event where it got shot a lot. 22’s shouldn’t lead like that though.
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  #69  
Old 12-30-2021, 06:49 AM
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Well... this is the first thread I found when looking for information on a new model 41!

I saw a video on YouTube by a poster named 22Plinkster and was impressed by his Performance Center model 41.
He mentioned some extraction problems with 36 grain ammo but nothing as in depth as this.

I'm not ordering a new pistol from S&W now.
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  #70  
Old 12-30-2021, 01:28 PM
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Totally unacceptable quality control in the manufacturing process and irresponsible customer service policies. I have followed your tale of woe from the beginning, and as much as I was hoping that it would get resolved the first time around, I'm not in the least bit surprised at the outcome. From what I have seen both here and with people I know, it takes 3 trips back to the factory before they do more than "test fire" it, call it "repaired" and ship it back. If it were me, I would get on the horn with S&W customer service and not leave them alone until I spoke with someone who will take personal responsibility to get your issue fixed. Then I would ship it back to S&W "in care of" that person. It is a long, drawn out pita process but if your wheel doesn't squeak enough to be an annoyance, you'll get no grease.
On the bright side, 3 trips back to S&W is still faster (and cheaper) than one 19 1/2 month trip back to Colt.
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Old 12-30-2021, 04:04 PM
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I can't tell they did anything. What a shame.
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  #72  
Old 01-08-2022, 11:52 PM
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I am very disappointed in S & W overall. I will never buy another gun that they produce! Quality control is terrible. They don’t communicate with their customers. Takes too damn long to get your gun back from the factory—-6 to 8 weeks. I will buy CZ next time.
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Old 01-09-2022, 12:29 AM
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Well, I hope the barrel problem on the 41 gets straightened out soon. I have remarked (complained ) here about S&W barrels of a couple of new guns Iíve ordered, one of a 329PD and another of a 1911. The 329PD barrel APPEARS to be an ECM barrel. The 1911 barrel is likely broached. That is just my opinion, not confirmed by S&W or anyone else.

Both barrels, while they look terrible, shoot acceptably. The 1911 actually shoots well enough I havenít replaced the barrel. The 329PD I think shoots as well as I can hold it, and with that beast, itís hard to tell.

Since having the bad experiences with these two guns Iíve been keeping a close eye on the barrels of new S&Ws I can examine. I have yet to see another atrocity like the two I bought, but the rifling and crown work sure donít look like they did 30 or more years ago.
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Old 02-25-2022, 02:24 PM
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Default I'm back with an update...

Quick refresher - up in post #66, you'll see the email I sent S&W in December. They ultimately responded with, "we'll send you a shipping label" ignoring my request to talk with someone responsible. I replied with this (below) and sent it off mid-January.

"Okay, send me a label (thanks), but can a supervisor look at my work order/issue history and give me call now anyway? I know you will need the firearm for resolution (replace barrel, replace entire firearm, or refund), but I would like to talk with him/her about the defects, how it got through quality control, why it was sent back after "repair" with the same defects, and what the plan is for resolution. Please..."
I called about two weeks after it arrived at S&W to ask about status and to speak with the supervisor about what they were going to do...no call came.

So today, about 5 weeks after its been in their hands, I get an automated email saying FedEx will be delivering my pistol this coming Tuesday. Zero details on what they did, or didn't do. So I called S&W a few minutes ago and talked to a representative to ask her to look at my case and tell me what action was taken. She reports that the barrel was replaced with a new unit (my "option #1" in post #66 above).

While I am pleased with the news, I am tempering my enthusiasm until I see the barrel and shoot it. I will report back with results.

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  #75  
Old 02-25-2022, 04:58 PM
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It's encouraging to hear that the barrel has been replaced. You have been more than patient. Wishing you the best on this one.
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  #76  
Old 02-25-2022, 05:17 PM
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When I first purchased my 686-6, back in 2013 I was dismayed to find it locked up with defensive loads. Sent it back better, not perfect. This is a off the shelf model, not PC.

After witnessing your story, I will never purchase a PC firearm. Of course, I'm really not in the market anymore...
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Old 02-25-2022, 07:15 PM
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I hope your new barrel is the way it should be. Put that borescope in again and post some pics please and let us know.

That said, I was cleaning my 1997 41 the other day that I bought used a couple of years ago, it is a gorgeous pristine gun looking as new. After cleaning I too saw an area with my naked eye that did not come clean. Used everything solvent wise, 100+ brush strokes, nada. Then I bought a borescope to take a closer look. Think your barrel is bad? What you see here is the aftermath of a very dull cutter and or chip load in the cutter. It is atrocious to say the least. Same with yours, that is poor rifling, not leading, not heat cracking, shoddy workmanship. The lands are not to bad but the grooves, holy smokes!

I then borescoped my 1965 41, 7 and 5" barrels as well as another 5.5" barrel I recently bought on GB. They were beautiful, shiny, smooth, perfect.

So I called S&W, they sent me a return label. I also talked to several respected smiths and they both said the same thing, poor tooling. I also found a bullseye smith 2 hours from me that specializes in relining that meets bullseye accuracy. So I debated, him for $350 and 8 weeks shop time (he's very busy) or send to S&W and roll the dice. Side note; I sent S&W a 29-2 a few years ago for cylinder lockup issues, paid $150, locked up again on the 3rd shot! So I educated myself and fixed it myself and it works perfect. Strike 1.

My decision? I sent it to the renowned smith for relining. Note, the gun did shoot pretty well, however, I think this needs to addressed.

Enjoy the pictures! Nothing like I've ever seen in my 66 years! And it's the entire barrel too.

Video link too:
Model 41_x264.mp4 - Google Drive
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File Type: jpg Snap_005.jpg (43.0 KB, 100 views)
File Type: jpg Snap_004.jpg (44.5 KB, 98 views)

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Old 02-26-2022, 05:31 AM
Larks Larks is offline
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I look forward to hearing your update on this and also to hearing that your next beer with M41 in hand is a “celebratory” one.
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Old 02-26-2022, 08:26 AM
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My love for vintage S&W's is as strong as ever and those are the only S&W's I have bought since 1994 when I purchased my last factory new S&W - a M60-7. The mid 90's is when the decline started (IMO) It is very unfortunate that the head honcho's running the Company and the major share holders are so in denial, blind and deaf that they are literally going to be in command of a ship half under water as soon as customers finally wake up and understand that the Company is not the one that existed in their heyday and that what they are producing and selling is only because of their past reputation and longevity in the firearms business.

This is NOT bashing - it is simply stating what has happened to S&W (just not deniable any longer) and that customers are finally starting to see the light. Any manufacturer can have a bad day, week or month - but there has unfortunately been a steady decline over QC and ethics for quite a long time now.

I believe the tail that wags the dog at S&W has been their plastic guns which by all account is what they are able to produce best. They are the simplest products to produce because the gun is mostly produced by machines and computers. Old style traditional metal guns are becoming a thing of the past and every year that goes by there are less & less old timers and qualified Gunsmiths who understand their production methods and the type of customers who are attracted to them. Labor of love, work ethics, pride, = GONE!

I hope your problems are resolved and they finally send you an acceptable M41! Please keep us informed.
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Old 02-26-2022, 11:24 AM
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I don't know what to say about the barrel. That just doesn't look good at all. I will assume the obvious, that you thoroughly cleaned it and that isn't gunk.

As to the safety - mine is tiny and is also very stiff. But I don't care - it's a target pistol. It's never loaded unless I am firing it. I've never had a reason to engage the safety. I consider it to be a non-issue, it wouldn't bother me a bit if they had produced it with no safety at all.
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Old 02-26-2022, 12:13 PM
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I would send it back and request a refund. That's all Bs
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Old 02-26-2022, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AreWeNotMen? View Post
Okay, to cover a few posted comments (and not artificially build my post count):

The hassle of buying used w/o inspection, shipping costs, up to $100 fee at FFL to accept a private party or dealer transfer, etc. was not appealing to me. None were local, and prices here in CA tend to be stupider than most other places.

Although I've bought more handguns used than new, sometimes my OCD tendencies rule and I cannot get pass some other icky human having "violated" what I plan to own. Examples? Last few new vehicles I bought literally just came off the delivery truck (yet I've bought innumerable used vehicles without issue), I reach for the box further back in the display of whatever at the store...I know its weird and inconsistent, but its me.

Twas cleaned thoroughly the same night I got it home - that's when the bore scope found the uglies.

I emailed v. called because I like a written record; they sent a prepaid FedEx label this morning and I shipped it back this afternoon.

I don't want my money back, I want an appropriate quality Model 41.

I've tried before, but in my experience S&W does not explain their failures, does not sufficiently explain what they did to "correct" the issue, and has little empathy with us - their customers.

The answer to "the $1400 question" is I dunno - didn't want to waste time and ammo shooting a gun I knew was going to be different in its ultimate configuration (shooting club is 30 minutes away - no "back 40 range" here).

As disappointing as this, I'll be sure to let you know how it goes.

PS - I'm adding a pic of the "third-world quality" muzzle/crown for for fun.
I know it doesn't make you feel better but the one I bought last year looks worse than yours. Looks like the rifling is off center on the picture of yours also. Just sent mine to Ten ring precision for a reline. SW brushed me off when I sent it back to them.
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Old 02-26-2022, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larks View Post
I look forward to hearing your update on this and also to hearing that your next beer with M41 in hand is a ďcelebratoryĒ one.
Iíll also be interested to see what the muzzle looks like on the replacement one - your old one looks like it has a barrel liner rather than being a rifled billet...????

Good Grief S&W, Strike Three! (new Model 41 7") - see post #92-photo_20211104123624-jpg

compared to what Iím seeing on mine - here are both of my barrels side by side

[IMG]IMG_3125 by Greg Larkin, on Flickr[/IMG]

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Old 02-26-2022, 08:52 PM
clwebster clwebster is offline
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I thinks SW philosiphy now is if it ain't right, they will send it back.
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Old 02-27-2022, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larks View Post
Iíll also be interested to see what the muzzle looks like on the replacement one - your old one looks like it has a barrel liner rather than being a rifled billet...????

compared to what Iím seeing on mine - here are both of my barrels side by side

[IMG]IMG_3125 by Greg Larkin, on Flickr[/IMG]
Hmmm - interesting observation! I just thought is was goofy lighting in my pic. If it was a liner and they thought it was a "fix", it's hard to imaging what the OEM barrel looked like if they thought this was better! And in looking at your muzzles, they appear shockingly rough/primitive also!?!
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Old 02-27-2022, 09:12 AM
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Thanks all for the support and commiseration. I realized I was taking a chance on buying a new firearm from S&W, and like several others here - this has convinced me it will be my last. In thinking about how S&W has handled this, it's nothing short of sociopathic - much like the DMV! S&W seems to see themselves as No. 1 so they don't have to give a **** (DMV does so because they are the sole option). It is obvious they are riding on the coattails of their past quality and customer care - both non-existent now. And clwebster, your observation is correct - they keep sending unresolved junk back, wearing out the customer until he/she gives up and settles, just finds another fix, or sells the inferior product off.
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Old 03-04-2022, 12:28 AM
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I have a model 41 I purchased years ago and it is very well made. This thread makes me sick and I will be very careful buying anything from Smith in the future. Thanks for all the info and good luck with your new barrel.
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Old 04-04-2022, 11:46 PM
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I have both old and new. Both work well. The old one refuses to digest hv ammo.


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Old 04-05-2022, 04:34 AM
Jimbo41 Jimbo41 is offline
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I have several, none new, but do empathize with the OP’s troubles with a new gun. What is it about guns that you can’t just take it back to the retail store and have them take it back, as if it were any other product. Enough of that rant.

I only shoot SV ammo, and I have never used a buffer of any sort, never even tried. Am I missing something?

I bid buy a bully barrel, I wanted a threaded barrel to suppress that was designed for mounting an optic.

To the OP, sorry for any thread drift and good luck! FWiW, I think they’ll make it right eventually, they just need to learn that you won’t give up.
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Old 04-05-2022, 01:23 PM
rolandj rolandj is offline
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Default Pic.

Attached a pic. in Post #47 of the defects in the barrel. S & W did replace the barrel on the 3rd trip back to them. It did take a phoncon with a supervisor to get it replaced.
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Old 04-09-2022, 08:39 AM
jim1K jim1K is offline
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I have or should I say I remember having a new 41, it has been at S&W repair for over 4 months. It had a bad barrel also, only had lands and grooves half way out the barrel. The trigger is junk, they never broke the edges and you need a box of band aids to handle it. It never cycled in 8 shots and it key holed every shot, they even managed to screw up the serial number by double stamping the last digit..... Jim

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Old 04-11-2022, 09:32 AM
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Default The Saga Continues

S&W did send a replacement barrel...aaaand it's going back again.
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Old 04-11-2022, 10:05 AM
jim1K jim1K is offline
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That looks good to what I had, So I guess I know what to expect when mine ever gets back.... I have a new barrel ordered from Clark.... Jim
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Old 04-11-2022, 02:28 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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That's awful. My 1970s M41 is fine but the late Jerry Keefer said that any of them would warrant relining for serious competition by a Master level shooter. He also made 10 twist M52 barrels, and had his own spec for 1911 .45 barrels.

I heard of one dud barrel that the owner could not get fixed or replaced so he made a sub rosa deal at the PD. They had a confiscated M41 that was to be scrapped - it had apparently acquired criminal habits - so he was allowed to swap barrels. The naughty barrel shot just fine.
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Old 04-12-2022, 06:33 PM
AveragEd AveragEd is offline
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Well, I can only hope I have better luck. I ordered a Model 41 (the standard version; I think the PC version is unattractive and I also prefer the longer barrel which isn't available on the PC gun) direct from S&W back in November and received a call this morning from S&W's media department for my payment. They advised that it would be shipped with "priority" as I am an outdoor writer so I expect my gun shop will receive it this week. If I'm not mistaken, handguns must be shipped via second-day air anyway.

Given the backorder situation with no expectation of when production might occur, I considered buying a used one on GunBroker but the very nice examples were selling for more than my media cost for a new one and since they were manufactured prior to S&W instituting their lifetime warranty, any problems would strictly and solely be mine. Accordingly, I went with new.

Please do keep all of us posted on your progress with your Model 41. Unless I missed it in these posts, how does it shoot?

Ed
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Old 04-12-2022, 06:39 PM
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You need to just buy something else.
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Old 04-13-2022, 03:15 PM
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I'd get my money back, and call it a lesson learned. JMHO
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Old 04-14-2022, 06:40 PM
jim1K jim1K is offline
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Well I got the 41 back with the new barrel and guess what two of the lands don't go out to the muzzle. I don't think they are capable of good work at this point, you are replacing a barrel and no one looked in it to see if it was good? Send it back for an other 4+ months to get what ever back again.. Time to get liner put in ..... Time is money also at time is precious ... Jim
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Old 04-14-2022, 06:47 PM
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Sorry to hear Jim. That's why I chose the Gunsmith path
Been 8 weeks here, he should be starting on it anytime. I will report back here too.
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Old 04-14-2022, 07:14 PM
jim1K jim1K is offline
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I really think they should close the doors because they are not capable of building match grade guns. I never had a S&W with barrels that looked this bad. Two in a row, my barrel is going to be relined by Ten Ring.... Jim
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