FBI 1076 & the Performance Center Question

[LE6920]

There used to be a posting some where on the internet that claimed the FBI 1076 was the most expensive S&W production automatics in terms of cost to S&W to make because all the guns were sent back to the Performance Center and had $2,500 (or so) worth of retail PC work done after the initial problems with the gun were identified. Work was stated as 1) new parts, 2)blue printing and 3) polishing of parts.

Is there any proof to this claim to the cost and work performed?

[torrejon224]

Not that I'm aware of. I have two "papered" FBI 1076s with all the trimmings to include the hi-cap mags. I would think that maybe at first several guns were sent to the PC to ensure full reliability but I doubt that every gun sold to them went there. The cost would have been staggering and if it did happen S&W probably ate a good deal of it themselves.

[XTrooper]

Of all the literature I've read regarding the FBI 1076s which covers a lot of ground and which includes information from former FBI agents, nothing even vaguely like what you describe was ever mentioned. The fact is, the Performance Center won't even do a trigger job on either of the frame-mounted decocker models (1026 & 1076).

This story is almost certainly pure BS.

[martialcomp]

I could have sworn that Wesman told us the story about the 1076 and how it ended up being the most expensive production pistol ever produced specifically for the reasons mentioned in the original post.

[LE6920]

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&gl=us

I found a little bit of info.

"All were then sent back to S&W and went through the Performance Center and were then returned to service"

[XTrooper]

Originally Posted by LE6920

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&gl=us

I found a little bit of info.

"All were then sent back to S&W and went through the Performance Center and were then returned to service"

Even if factual, there's quite a difference between going "through the Performance Center" and spending an additional $2500 on a pistol that never retailed for more than $778.

[TheGreatGonzo]

Originally Posted by torrejon224

I have two "papered" FBI 1076s with all the trimmings to include the hi-cap mags.

The hi-cap mags? Sweet Liza Minelli. It was my issued weapon and we never even got the hi-cap mags. Quantico repeatedly denied having any, although rumors abounded that they were there.
Gonzo

[LE6920]

Originally Posted by XTrooper

Even if factual, there's quite a difference between going "through the Performance Center" and spending an additional $2500 on a pistol that never retailed for more than $778.

Good point, however, I don't think the 2,500 or so FBI 1076's were ever considered by S&W to have a "retail price point" from S&W, meaning, the guns got the attention needed to fix the issues and maybe save the contract????

[XTrooper]

Originally Posted by LE6920

Good point, however, I don't think the 2,500 or so FBI 1076's were ever considered by S&W to have a "retail price point" from S&W, meaning, the guns got the attention needed to fix the issues and maybe save the contract????

My point was this. Even if you bought all the parts individually and built a completely new pistol, you couldn't come anywhere near $2500 in cost. Besides the apparent lack of evidence to support the story, the thought of it costing $2500 in 1990-1991 dollars to "fix" the FBI pistols borders on the realm of science fiction. Without some concrete evidence to support the claim, the idea seems beyond belief to me.

[shawn mccarver]

Originally Posted by XTrooper

Of all the literature I've read regarding the FBI 1076s which covers a lot of ground and which includes information from former FBI agents, nothing even vaguely like what you describe was ever mentioned. The fact is, the Performance Center won't even do a trigger job on either of the frame-mounted decocker models (1026 & 1076).

This story is almost certainly pure BS.

I would respectfully disagree. The literature I recall reading at the time said that the 2,500 or so 1076s that went back to the FBI after the recall all went through the Performance Center. One article mentioned that Paul Liebenberg was there at them time, and they made sure every gun worked.

[martialcomp]

Yep, that is the story I remember. Wesman told it before the board was upgraded.

And, yes, Wesman specifically said that the 1076 ended up being the most expensive production gun ever made by Smith and Wesson. I believe that Wesman was there along with Paul Liebenberg.

If we still had access to the old board postings then we could reference the story.

[Gary1911A1]

Originally Posted by TheGreatGonzo

The hi-cap mags? Sweet Liza Minelli. It was my issued weapon and we never even got the hi-cap mags. Quantico repeatedly denied having any, although rumors abounded that they were there.
Gonzo

I do remember seeing in a gun magazine that covered the new 1076 a picture of a 15 round extended magazine, but I've never seen one in person.

[bad_man_ one]

Originally Posted by Gary1911A1

I do remember seeing in a gun magazine that covered the new 1076 a picture of a 15 round extended magazine, but I've never seen one in person.

Please refer to my post of 6/9/09:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/showthr...t=71538&page=4
Regards,
BM1

[XTrooper]

Originally Posted by shawn mccarver

I would respectfully disagree. The literature I recall reading at the time said that the 2,500 or so 1076s that went back to the FBI after the recall all went through the Performance Center. One article mentioned that Paul Liebenberg was there at them time, and they made sure every gun worked.

I wasn't questioning the fact that they may have gone to the Performance Center, but I find incredulous the story that $2500 worth of additional work was done on each of them. I honestly don't think that is or was even possible to spend that much repairing a Model 1076 in 1990-1991 or today for that matter. An itemized invoice of $2500 worth of work on a 1076 would be interesting to see to say the least.

[LE6920]

Originally Posted by XTrooper

I wasn't questioning the fact that they may have gone to the Performance Center, but I find incredulous the story that $2500 worth of additional work was done on each of them. I honestly don't think that is or was even possible to spend that much repairing a Model 1076 in 1990-1991 or today for that matter. An itemized invoice of $2500 worth of work on a 1076 would be interesting to see to say the least.

I don't remember the exact amount the posting quantified as the work performed. However, anyone that disagrees that $2,500 is impossible is thinking more on the lines of parts vs. labor costs.

[LE6920]

Originally Posted by XTrooper

Of all the literature I've read regarding the FBI 1076s which covers a lot of ground and which includes information from former FBI agents, nothing even vaguely like what you describe was ever mentioned. The fact is, the Performance Center won't even do a trigger job on either of the frame-mounted decocker models (1026 & 1076).

This story is almost certainly pure BS.

I think we now know it is not all pure BS

[XTrooper]

Originally Posted by LE6920

I don't remember the exact amount the posting quantified as the work performed. However, anyone that disagrees that $2,500 is impossible is thinking more on the lines of parts vs. labor costs.

I am no means a gunsmith or have any real knowledge, however, as a drag racer I have seen $700 aluminum Big Duke BBC castings have over $20k of machine work performed - per head - in a single week. Having seen the amount of money spend in the racing industry on "one off" items, I never argue that something can't cost that much until I am sure I speaking to someone in the know.

I laugh at people all the time when they see a 499 CI BBC engine and say "there is no way that motor costs over $100K to build", "is it made of gold???????????"

I've already spent too much time on this debate, but, before I bow out, I'd like to point out that you're talking apples vs oranges with your drag car analogy. I again point to the fact that we are talking about a pistol that, at its height, cost no more than $778 new. Talking labor "costs" in this instance is silly in any case because however much time the Springfield gunsmiths spent on these pistols, S&W certainly didn't charge themselves for the labor. Whatever labor cost they may have come up with at the time was "in theory" only, so they were free to claim any amount, no matter how fantastical, because they didn't have to try and get someone to actually pay for it!

[LE6920]

Originally Posted by XTrooper

I've already spent too much time on this debate, but, before I bow out, I'd like to point out that you're talking apples vs oranges with your drag car analogy. I again point to the fact that we are talking about a pistol that, at its height, cost no more than $778 new. Talking labor "costs" in this instance is silly in any case because however much time the Springfield gunsmiths spent on these pistols, S&W certainly didn't charge themselves for the labor. Whatever labor cost they may have come up with at the time was "in theory" only, so they were free to claim any amount, no matter how fantastical, because they didn't have to try and get someone to actually pay for it!

I must go now, as my work as a CPA (by day) continues.
But its all "BS"................................ right?

[XTrooper]

Originally Posted by LE6920

I must go now, as my work as a CPA (by day) continues.

Sounds like exciting stuff. Enjoy.

[bad_man_ one]

I had heard the $2500.00 figure also, ask DMC8163.
This is a copy of one of his posts, D, I hope you don't mind.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/showthr...t=77847&page=2

Originally Posted by dmc8163

Despite the fact that the FBI 1076 was the most accurate handgun ever issued by the FBI is also suffered from a number of significant issues. After an internal inquiry concerning the reliability of the FBI 1076 was conducted by investigators in May 1991 the FBI elected to discontinue use of the FBI 1076 and return all pistols in its possession to the S&W factory in June 1991. After negotiating revisions/modifications to the 1076 S&W shipped an unknown number of the enhanced replacement 1076s, commonly referred to as Performance Center pistols, [sources indicate around 2,500] back to the FBI beginning in 1993. An undetermined number of those pistols were eventually returned to S&W after the FBI and S&W mutually agreed to cancel the contract “for the convenience of the government.” That slight of hand ensured that S&W did not lose any money when they lost the contract and perhaps justifiably so.
At the request of many on duty Agents S&W established a program in 1993 under which Agents could purchase as many of these returned 1076s as they wanted for $350 each (they were sold to the Bureau for $295 which included four 9-round mags, two 11-round mags and one 15-round mag). The FBI 1076s not purchased by Agents or internally by S&W personnel were ultimately shipped to major distributors like Lew Horton for re-sale as "USED GUNS." They sold cheaply and poorly due to the reputation acquired while at the FBI. But it was not at all unusual for an Agent, having first hand experience with the pistol, to buy three or more pistols. The program was completely independent of the FBI as it was illegal (or at least a violation of regulations and policy) then, as now, for a Federal agency to sell its surplus firearms to its own employees or to trade the weapons in on replacements.
Historically, the FBI has destroyed many thousands of Colts (all Colts in the possession of the FBI were cut up and buried in the mid-80s (with the exception of display Thompson SMGs in each field office) and Smiths (smelted) over the years as a result of laws and regulations that prohibit the Feds from trading, selling, or even giving away their surplus weapons. The S&W deal worked because all the FBI 1076s that were returned to S&W were done so under a rather novel interpretation of a vaguely worded “warranty clause” in the contract. That is, all the 1076s the gun vault could lay its grubby hands on. Many Agents refused to give up their 1076s and kept them until retirement or they were threatened with administrative action (me being one) if they did not give them up so they could be issued Glocks. There are active Agents that still have their issue 1076s [they will be destroyed when they are finally turned in just as mine was].
The FBI 1076s on the market to day are the only FBI owned and issued FBI firearms ever to see the light of day in modern times. Only today are collectors really beginning to appreciate how rare and collectible the FBI 1076s really are. At best there are only 2.500 pistols available and that number is likely entirely too high. Many of the FBI 1076s were deactivated into "red handle" training guns for the New Agents and any pistol turned into the gun vault after the organized warranty return were subsequently destroyed by the Bureau (mine for example in 1998). The actual number of FBI 1076s that eventually reached the civilian market is unknown at this time but it certainly was less than 2,500. It is only a matter of time before more collectors’ recognize that the FBI 1076 is not simply any other 3rd Generation S&W pistol. Or even any other law enforcement trade-in pistol for that matter. The FBI 1076 is a historically significant firearm and the fact that any survived at all is but a fortuitous quirk of fate. I often pose this question to potential collectors of the 1076: How many other documented FBI issue firearms do you know of that are selling for around a $1,000 in many cases? For that matter, how many documented FBI firearms are available for civilian purchase at any price?
It is my hope that this information, researched from actual FBI documents and interviews of actual players involved clears up at least a couple of the misconceptions surrounding the much maligned FBI 1076.

[LE6920]

November 30, 1992
WASHINGTON, Nov. 30 /U.S. Newswire/ -- FBI Director William S. Sessions annou Smith and Wesson (S&W) Model 1076 10mm pistols to approximately 2,400 field agents.

Recognizing the need to arm FBI special agents with more powerful weapons, in January 1990, S&W won a contract to develop a 10mm semiautomatic pistol specifically for the FBI. This program has now been enhanced with developments and special features designed for the FBI by the S&W Performance Center.

[dmc8163]

Actually, per former employees in the PC at the time (and yes Paul headed the PC at that time), none of the 2,500 FBI 1076s had any special PC work done on them. What they did did do is: 1) assemble each pistol in the PC by the best gunsmiths in the company and 2) they used only the best parts. That is, each part was carefully measured and only those tightly within the specs were used. The only added expense for S&W was the time spent by its top gunsmiths on the program.

The FBI 1076s you can purchase today are not (with very rare exceptions) PC pistols. What you are getting is one of the original 1,000 recall pistols. By the way, none of the original 1,000 pistols were returned to the FBI as part of the 2,500. The FBI had their serial numbers and never wanted to see them again. S&W sent the original 1,000 pistols out as "Used Guns."

The FBI has now destroyed nearly every PC FBI 1076. As of several months ago the Gun Vault had about 10 left in inventory. Several field offices also keep one or two in inventory for discussion and display purposes only. They can not be issued or carried by any Agent.

[dmc8163]

WESMAN has referred to the FBI 1076 in those terms. However, he is refering to the entire FBI 1076 program and what it cost S&W in $$$$$ by the time they got out of it. Average the total cost and divide by the total run of only 3,500 pistols and the cost per pistol is staggering.

[XTrooper]

Originally Posted by dmc8163

WESMAN has referred to the FBI 1076 in those terms. However, he is refering to the entire FBI 1076 program and what it cost S&W in $$$$$ by the time they got out of it. Average the total cost and divide by the total run of only 3,500 pistols and the cost per pistol is staggering.

When explained in those terms, the cost claims make much more sense. Thanks for your insight.

[bad_man_ one]

D,
These are some of the pictures I took with the permission of Paul Liebenberg of Pistol Dynamics in Palm Bay Florida.
It is the original S&W FBI 1076 Test and Evaluation gun that was always referred to when a 1076 was in question for any reason.
It was the one that all the other 1076's were compared to,
with the "PROTOTYPE" - 9, 11 and 15 round magazines that are truly one of a kind.
Notice the metal follower on the 9 round magazine.
Was this a PC gun?

Regards,
Bad_Man_One

[Gary1911A1]

Originally Posted by dmc8163

Actually, per former employees in the PC at the time (and yes Paul headed the PC at that time), none of the 2,500 FBI 1076s had any special PC work done on them. What they did did do is: 1) assemble each pistol in the PC by the best gunsmiths in the company and 2) they used only the best parts. That is, each part was carefully measured and only those tightly within the specs were used. The only added expense for S&W was the time spent by its top gunsmiths on the program.

The FBI 1076s you can purchase today are not (with very rare exceptions) PC pistols. What you are getting is one of the original 1,000 recall pistols. By the way, none of the original 1,000 pistols were returned to the FBI as part of the 2,500. The FBI had their serial numbers and never wanted to see them again. S&W sent the original 1,000 pistols out as "Used Guns."

The FBI has now destroyed nearly every PC FBI 1076. As of several months ago the Gun Vault had about 10 left in inventory. Several field offices also keep one or two in inventory for discussion and display purposes only. They can not be issued or carried by any Agent.

Somebody at the FBI should have their butts kicked for destroying these pistols. What a waste of money. No wonder China owns so much of us.

[dmc8163]

Sorry, don't blame the FBI. They are required to destroy their surplus firearms by federal law passed at the urging of the firearms industry. The industry can't stand the thought of all those surplus Federal guns hitting the market.

[LadyFed]

Hey Guys, happy 4th. Just got back from a month on the job in parts unknown and it was nice to see more discussion on my favorite S&W. Wish we still had it in service.
Eliza

[LE6920]

There is a nice "non FBI" on GB right now at $900 with three days left.