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  #1  
Old 05-09-2009, 09:13 AM
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Just curious, are there any advantages with the 40 S & W vs. 45 ACP, other then possibly magazine capicity?

I have wondered from time to time why the FBI just didn't the 45 ACP.

Best

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Old 05-09-2009, 09:35 AM
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Two that I can think of; lower ammunition cost and lower recoil.
On the other hand, the .40 bullet may fail to expand, but the .45 will not shrink.

I am not certain about the reasons for the FBI decision to go to 10 mm, which came first, rather than .45. I have heard lots of various opinions, perhaps someone here has the facts.
IMO the decision is clouded by the “fog of time”. Wanting something new, not the obsolete 45acp probably was high in the bureaucratic mind.
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Old 05-09-2009, 10:42 AM
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I carry a .40 because of the higher mag capacity (which you mentioned), but other than that the only thing I can think of is that most .40 pistols are smaller than the .45ACP variant of the same pistol (for example the M&P45 fullsize is a noticably larger pistol than the M&P9 and 40).
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Old 05-09-2009, 12:27 PM
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40 caliber pistols could be made on existing 9mm frames.
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Old 05-09-2009, 01:47 PM
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S&W 40 guns are usually cheaper than the 45 and 40 S&W is the last handgun ammo that vendors have in stock.
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Old 05-09-2009, 01:59 PM
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.45s are authorized by the Bureau but it wouldn't have been a good choice for standard issue...simply a size and recoil issue.

Glock 22s are actually big enough that a significant portion of the female agents simply can't conceal them properly..same for some of the smaller men. Right now most are getting a G23 to help with that. It's not a big difference in size, but it's a big difference in concealability.

For the women and men with smaller hands, the G22/23 is about the largest grip size they can shoot well. Going to a G21 wouldn't work at all for many of them and the additional recoil would only make it worse. R,
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Old 05-09-2009, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BobsSmith:
I have wondered from time to time why the FBI just didn't the 45 ACP.
There is an excellent post about this topic that I'm sure is burried by several pages. It is an excellent read from some people that are/were close to the FBI at the time.

F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP.

Cheers,
Sam
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Old 05-09-2009, 04:58 PM
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if you shoot a great deal the advantage with the forty is 1) small pistol or rifle primer works and seats easy 2) less lead costs less sometimes. the Miami shootout changed things at the FBI. 60% of FBI arrests involve automobiles and penetration is important. I think it was Ayoob who did an article showing after action reports , medical examiners info, etc. the FBI people I knew kept that 10mm in the trunk and carried a smaller gun, only using the 10mm to qualify.
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Old 05-10-2009, 08:35 AM
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There are no advantages that make up for the smaller caliber.
Bob Ray
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Old 05-10-2009, 09:20 AM
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I consider the 40 S&W a 9x19 Plus. The bullet diameter has been increased from 9 mm to 10 mm. Nothing to get excited about.

I shoot 9x19 in practice and competition for its economic ammo availability, no need to reload.

I shoot 45 ACP in competition because of Major scoring and the challenge.

I do not shoot 40 S&W, because it is just a 9x19 with a bigger ego.
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Old 05-10-2009, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mxbob:
There are no advantages that make up for the smaller caliber.
Bob Ray
So we should all carry Howitzers?
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Old 05-10-2009, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lucky Derby:
So we should all carry Howitzers?
Notice he said "the smaller caliber" thus referring to the 40 S&W. Not a smaller caliber in general.
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Old 05-10-2009, 10:23 AM
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135 gr Federal Premium JHP (.40)
vs
165 gr Federal Premium JHP (.45):

.40: 1,190 ft/s, 424 ft-lb
.45: 1,060 ft/s, 412 ft-lb


165 gr Speer Gold Dot JHP (.40)
vs
185 gr Speer Gold Dot JHP (.45)
vs
200 gr Speer Gold Dot JHP +P (.45)

.40: 1,150 ft/s, 484 ft-lb
.45: 1,050 ft/s, 435 ft-lb
.45(+P): 1,080 ft/s , 518 ft-lb


My point? Both are fine calibers. I personally feel many people like .45 because it's a .45. Just like many people like .9mm because its a 9.

I'd take a .357 mag over anything though.
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Old 05-10-2009, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by sasu:
I consider the 40 S&W a 9x19 Plus. The bullet diameter has been increased from 9 mm to 10 mm. Nothing to get excited about...

I do not shoot 40 S&W, because it is just a 9x19 with a bigger ego.
Huh? If you don't like 40S&W, just say so. Trying to discredit something you don't like by using a line of BS like you just used is like Obama taking credit for cutting the defecit. Congrats, you and Obama share the same sense of logic.

You say increasing the diameter from 9 to 10mm is "nothing to get excited about". Maybe you're right, it's roughly 1/2 a caliber (.355 vs .400). Doesn't sound like a lot - maybe it isn't. But just for the sake of argument - and objectivity - let's check the difference between the diameter of 40S&W and .45acp. Well slap me silly - it's also roughly 1/2 a caliber (.400 vs .451). So you dismiss 1/2 a caliber increase from 9 to 40, but champion the 1/2 a caliber increase from 40 to 45?

So you say a 40S&W is a "9x19 plus" and a "9x19 with a bigger ego"? Huh?? That's like saying the 45acp is nothing more than a 40S&W with a "bigger ego". Both statements are blatantly false.

And for the record, I own and shoot all three calibers. In reality, there are advantages and disadvantage for each. What is gained by making false statements to justify or rationalize one's choie of caliber?
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  #15  
Old 05-10-2009, 05:47 PM
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With today's quality ammo, the only rea difference is probably bragging rights.
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  #16  
Old 05-11-2009, 11:48 AM
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These discussions go on and on and on and the fact is either caliber will kill you in a heart beat if the shooter hits you in the vitals.
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Old 05-11-2009, 12:37 PM
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And even a grazing shot with a .50 BMG won't either!
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Old 05-11-2009, 01:07 PM
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I say just have one in each caliber then you can choose what you want to carry and what works the nighstand drawer.
Hows that sound?
And........If they happen to be Generation III Smith see me for a New set of Gator Grips the best of both worlds. Great to hold on to and conceals very well
Thanks
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  #19  
Old 05-11-2009, 02:44 PM
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I can't see why people complain about recoil of the .45 ACP round. I'm just a little guy and I have no trouble shooting it. Especially in an autopistol where much of the recoil is absorbed by the springs.
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  #20  
Old 05-11-2009, 03:55 PM
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When considering caliber selection, it is important to remember that with their best loads, all modern 'service caliber' pistol cartridges do the same thing to the 'bad guy' - put a ragged-edged hole a bit over a foot deep and about two-thirds of an inch in diameter in his body. Where you put that hole is MUCH more important than a hundredth of an inch or so hole diameter difference. 'Secondary' characteristics, such as muzzle blast and feed reliability, along with controllability in a pistol of a given size and weight are actually more important that illusions of 'stopping power'.

.40 S&W operates at a higher pressure than .45ACP and might be a bit less desirable for home defense use because of its more intense muzzle blast. If greater capacity is required, the 9x19 is the way to go. Also, a more compact pistol can be built around the 9x19 and its shape is inherently more feed reliable than the .40 (or the .45ACP, for that matter).

For me, the .40 is 'neither fish nor fowl'. After considerable .40 S&W trigger time on several platforms, I go with 9x19 for everyday carry - a pair of S&W 3913s, one to carry and one in reserve. If I could afford a third pistol (instead of something more urgent), a .45ACP for nightstand - S&W 4506 or 4566. The .45 would not be chosen for 'stopping power', but for the reduced indoor muzzle blast (there might not be time in certain situations to throw on the amplified hearing protectors kept with my 'bedside kit').
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Old 05-11-2009, 04:52 PM
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Sheeish

.40 S&W and .45 ACP are specific cartridges which have caliber as a characteristi.

for the O.P. the .40 S&W was designed for an overall cartridge length (O.A.L>) to fit the same length magazine well as pistols designed
originally for a 9mm LUger/9x19 cartridge.

Price - example Double Tap similar bullets
.45 ACP $38.95/50 rds
.40 S&W $35.95/50 Rds

1 small advantage of the .45 ACP is
shot shell ammo available for it. Anybody
know of a company making shot shells
for the .40 S&W?

Randall
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  #22  
Old 05-11-2009, 05:30 PM
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Another advantage of the .45 ACP - in the
230 gr. defense loads it's subsonic < 1120 FPS
which is quieter than having the sonic booom
added in to the gunblast.
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  #23  
Old 05-11-2009, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
1 small advantage of the .45 ACP is
shot shell ammo available for it. Anybody
know of a company making shot shells
for the .40 S&W?
CCI makes shot shells for both the 9 & 40 S&W.
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Old 05-11-2009, 08:24 PM
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This is like the 41 mag 44 mag debate.
Good points -41 is more powerful than 357 and kicks less than a 44.
Bad points-41 kicks more than the 357 and isn't as powerful as the 44!
No need for the 40s&w or the 41 mag.
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Old 05-12-2009, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by James NM:
Quote:
Originally posted by sasu:
I consider the 40 S&W a 9x19 Plus. The bullet diameter has been increased from 9 mm to 10 mm. Nothing to get excited about...

I do not shoot 40 S&W, because it is just a 9x19 with a bigger ego.
Huh? If you don't like 40S&W, just say so. Trying to discredit something you don't like by using a line of BS like you just used is like Obama taking credit for cutting the defecit. Congrats, you and Obama share the same sense of logic.

You say increasing the diameter from 9 to 10mm is "nothing to get excited about". Maybe you're right, it's roughly 1/2 a caliber (.355 vs .400). Doesn't sound like a lot - maybe it isn't. But just for the sake of argument - and objectivity - let's check the difference between the diameter of 40S&W and .45acp. Well slap me silly - it's also roughly 1/2 a caliber (.400 vs .451). So you dismiss 1/2 a caliber increase from 9 to 40, but champion the 1/2 a caliber increase from 40 to 45?

So you say a 40S&W is a "9x19 plus" and a "9x19 with a bigger ego"? Huh?? That's like saying the 45acp is nothing more than a 40S&W with a "bigger ego". Both statements are blatantly false.

And for the record, I own and shoot all three calibers. In reality, there are advantages and disadvantage for each. What is gained by making false statements to justify or rationalize one's choie of caliber?
The Obama thing was uncalled for. You may be technically correct, but back off a little. Just the facts, Mam' just the facts
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Old 05-12-2009, 11:06 AM
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Increased magazine capacity is the visible difference.
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Old 05-12-2009, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeb Stonewall:
This is like the 41 mag 44 mag debate.
Good points -41 is more powerful than 357 and kicks less than a 44.
Bad points-41 kicks more than the 357 and isn't as powerful as the 44!
No need for the 40s&w or the 41 mag.
Other point: .357 is the gold standard man stopper so there is no need for any other round.

Just because you're not a fan, doesn't make it obsolete. I have .40s and .45s, I like the increased capacity of my .40s
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Old 05-12-2009, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Walthernut:

The Obama thing was uncalled for...
Well, it might not have been necessary, but I did think it was funny.
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Old 05-12-2009, 06:34 PM
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for me it would be recoil, but then i am older.
which is the best round i say 45. don
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Old 05-12-2009, 09:52 PM
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Me, like many others on this fine forum, know that 40 S&W is an inferior and unneeded caliber. That caliber is very popular, though, just like Obama as a president.
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  #31  
Old 05-12-2009, 10:11 PM
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The stopping power of the 40 is equivalent if not better than the 45.

45 auto
Load vel. energy penetr F.Dia. One-stop
230gr Hyd-shok 850 349 12 0.78 94%
230gr Goldsabr 875 391 14 0.75 93%
Corbon 185grJHP 1150 544 11.3 0.70 92%

.40 auto
Corbon135gJHP 1300 507 9.8 0.56 96%
Fedrl 155grJHP 1140 448 12 0.65 94%
165gr Goldsabr 1150 485 12 0.68 94%

.357magnum
Fedrl 125grJHP 1450 584 12 0.65 96%
Fedrl 110grJHP 1295 410 10 0.40 90%
125gr GoldSabr 1220 413 13 0.60 84%

Obviously, the .40 has consistently high stopping power. The .45 is roughly equivalent. The .357magnum, mostly a revolver caliber, has exceptionally good stopping power with an inexpensive Federal 125 grain jacketed hollow point.

Secondary defense calibers, with lesser but still effective stopping power, are the 9mm and the .38 Special. In both calibers, the most effective load is the Cor-bon 115 grain JHP+P. Both of these calibers, especially the .38sp, are known to have limited ability to penetrate intervening obstacles like automobile windshields, or hard targets like the human skull.

Load vel. energy pentr. F.Dia. One-stop
9mm auto
Corbon115grJHP+P 1350 466 14 0.55 91%
Rem.124grGoldSabr+P 1180 384 12 0.65 83%
Win 115grSiltip 1225 383 8 0.72 83%

.38special
Corbon115gr JHP+P 1250 399 15 0.58 83%
Win158grSWCHP+P 890 278 15 0.62 78%
Fedrl 125grJHP+P 945 248 12 0.69 73%

Corbon 115grain Jacketed Hollowpoints +P(highpower) are the clear winner...but these hot loads are expensive and should only be used in high-quality guns that specifically say they are suitable for +P ammo.

http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/calloadgoshin.htm

Personally, I like 9mm, 45, 40, 357 and 38 special.

I just want the bullet to be in the .380 inch range or larger.
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Old 05-12-2009, 10:33 PM
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Here is another link with supporting data.

http://www.neiassociates.org/caliber.htm

The 357 magnum, 9mm, 45 and 40 are all 90+% on one stop shots.

The .40 is the winner but only by a tiny percentage.

IMHO, there is nothing wrong with carrying a nice compact 9mm or 40 as both have decent stopping power and more capacity than a typical 45.
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Old 05-13-2009, 08:26 PM
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Flatter trajectory, wider range of bullet weights, ever-so-slightly better terminal ballistics (if you believe the FBI study), and since it was designed to fit into a modified 9mm platform its firearms are traditionally smaller and lighter with a higher capacity.

Not that the 45 doesn't have its own advantages-- operates at half the pressure of 9mm/40/etc., displacement (.45") and bullet weight (hard to argue with 230gr).

Pick the one that shoots most accurately in YOUR hands.
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Old 05-14-2009, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by sasu:
Me, like many others on this fine forum, know that 40 S&W is an inferior and unneeded caliber...
Well, I guess it's settled then. The sicence of sasu has spoken. Just like the science of man made global warming. Once the science has been settled, the debate is over.
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:30 AM
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Thank you for accepting the facts. Please remember to vote for me when I run for an office. You need smart people like me to manage your lives.
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:56 AM
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I had a .40 once. Discovered that I couldn't shoot it near as well as either the 9mm or the .45. Tried several factory loads and uncounted handloads, but the accuracy just wasn't there. Might have just been my gun, but I've never bothered to buy another to find out.
I'll stick with my .45s. I shoot it well and am completely satisfied with it.

I notice that some of you .40 lovers seem to be a might touchy about others putting it down. Kinda like Glock owners.
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Old 05-14-2009, 10:55 AM
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martialcomp,

Those 'one shot stop' percentages are based on statistically unsound methodology (like disregarding data that did not 'fit'). No weapon that can be hand or shoulder fired by an individual (except for rocket assisted and/or explosive warheads) will reliably stop an assault with a generic torso hit. Even the 12 ga. shotgun with full power loads will sometimes fail to produce the desired results.

Human beings are not computer models or bags of generic jelly. Like most other vertebrates, they have large areas that contain no mechanisms that are immediately required to sustain life or purposeful action. Hits in such places, even with the afore-mentioned shotgun, will depend far more on psychological factors than on actual physically causal effects for 'stopping'. Purposeful activity can be maintained for short periods of time even without a functioning circulatory system. You may have just inflicted a fatal wound, but failed to prevent the dying assailant from finishing his immediate business.

As I mentioned previously, there is no real difference between the permanent wound channels created by good bullets in any of our standard 'service' calibers. The only exception to this might be the .357 magnum using true 'full power' loads and even it fails far too often (in one case, a petite female was able to kill her ambush assailant after he nearly destroyed her heart with a .357). The full power .357 should not be included in a consideration of 'service' calibers because its blast and recoil make it difficult for the average person to shoot well under stress in a revolver of 'normal' size and weight.

The controllable 'service' cartridges all have 'power factors' of between 130 and 180 or so and produce muzzle energy levels in the 350 to 450 foot-pound range. This is far too little momentum or energy to reliably do the job. Consider the rifle cartridge recommendations for hunting deer. Deer are about the size of human beings and are usually no threat to the hunter, yet most people who have extensive experience will recommend nothing less than the .30-30 WCF (or its equivalent) for deer. Even the lowly .30-30 dwarfs any of our 'service' pistol cartridges in power.

We carry pistols because rifles or shotguns are inconvenient. We should focus our attention on becoming proficient with a pistol that we will actually carry - every day. We should choose that pistol for reliability, controllability and 'availability'. As long as we can put the bullet where it belongs (accuracy and penetration), caliber considerations are irrelevant. Is your chosen cartridge 'inadequate'? Yes, but so are all the rest...
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Old 05-14-2009, 01:11 PM
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The 40 S&W has a lot of detractors but in it's defense one must realize that you have alot of advantages - nearly the same expansion and penetration of the 45 acp (especially shooting through car doors and windshields) with nearly the capacity of the wondernine. So really it is an effective cartridge of comprimises that fills a need.
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Old 05-16-2009, 01:17 PM
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.45ACP has lower pressures, fewer kabooms!
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Old 05-16-2009, 09:46 PM
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I'm not sure where all the statistics are coming from, but I'm going to throw in a couple pennies worth. I never trust the latest Gov. reports on balistics and stopping power. What I do trust is the several wars this country has been involved in. This brings to mind the Spanish American war in which the .38 cal. military issued side arms where absolutly worthless. Granted it was the .38 colt. Many soldiers stated they would have been better off throwing rocks at the enemy. Thus enter the .45 cal. Colt model 1911. Again involved in two world wars and many other campaigns in which EVERY report from actual soldiers killing the enemy had at least a 90% or better "one shot stop" and in many cases death. I enjoy reading and this is one topic that is found in many of our wars history books and records. Just what can a fresh collage grad. working in a lab for the FBI or some other Gov. building tell me or anybody else about stopping power or killing power that history hasn't already. My thinking is the old .45ACP or even the 45 LC is a tried and true man stopper. I know this is why I own several and enjoy shooting them. When and if I need to defend myself or my family, I know I will be very well armed. Truth is the bigger the hole the better. And it does not take a supersonic bullet to acomplish this. I do agree that shooting through cars and other various objects may be a different story. I appoligize for the very short history lesson, but we all can learn from our history. Our military went to the nato 9mm simply on account that there is more females in the militay (amongst other reasons) and recoil was an issue. It is a fact that the military now teaches "three shot stops" and not the older "one shot stop". In my opinon thats why the smaller cal. guns need the additional magazine capacity, need more shots to do the job. I will never give up my .45's as our countries history states loud and clear this round is one hell of a manstopper. Just my two cents.
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Old 05-16-2009, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by martialcomp:
The stopping power of the 40 is equivalent if not better than the 45.
There is no such thing as stopping power unless your talking about cars, trucks, and busses.
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  #42  
Old 05-18-2009, 01:10 PM
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The .40 is a great caliber - at least for me and in my opinion... Many will certainly disagree...

I find that I can squeeze off more rounds more quickly and accurately with the .40 vs the .45.

I have average-sized hands. A .40 in a double stack mag is a more managable grip in my hands and gives a greater rounds per magazine than a comparable single stack mag in .45.

The lesser recoil is helpful in multiple shots. I find with a .45 I tend to "milk" the grip after about 6-8 rounds or so... I don't find myself "milking" the .40 until about round 10-12.

I know: shouldn't be "milking" any pistol at all, but...

As compared to a 9mm, I like the added "bang" that the .40 provides.
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  #43  
Old 05-19-2009, 01:34 PM
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Go shoot some heavy steel targets (hinged). Make your own comparison between the .45 230gr and the .40 165gr. I carry and like them both but for different reasons. If you want to knock a bad guy down for the count its the .45
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  #44  
Old 05-19-2009, 01:55 PM
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The biggest advantage to the .40 S&W is the ability to carry a reasonable number of larger caliber rounds in a medium frame semi-auto. A double stack .45 ACP magazine is generally too large for most people, i.e., Glock 21, however, a Glock 22 is exactly the same frame as the Glock 17, and many feel the Glock is very controllable. Whether or not the .40 S&W (higher pressure) generates more recoil the the .45 ACP is highly subjective; once you start shooting .45 ACP+P, the ability to perceive differences in recoil gets very clouded.
I've used the .40 S&W as a duty round in S&W and Sig-Sauers, and would feel comfortable carrying it again.
Today, I prefer the 9mm because it is not so damaging to my arthritic hands and wrists.
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Old 05-19-2009, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BlindJustice:
Sheeish 1 small advantage of the .45 ACP is
shot shell ammo available for it. Anybody
know of a company making shot shells
for the .40 S&W?

Randall
you talking about this stuff...$12.37/10rnds
http://shop.sportsmansguide.co.../cb/cb.aspx?a=289683

almost got some for my 92D but was iffy about it..
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  #46  
Old 05-19-2009, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by safearm:
Whether or not the .40 S&W (higher pressure) generates more recoil the the .45 ACP is highly subjective; once you start shooting .45 ACP+P, the ability to perceive differences in recoil gets very clouded.
I was referring to the .40 S&W's higher pressure being harder on the gun, not the shooter. That's why the Glock 22's have all those KABOOMS!
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:35 AM
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I thought they had all those kabooms because of the partially unsupported chamber + the reloading of once fired(by a glock) brass.
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Old 05-20-2009, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by LuddhaBuddha:
I thought they had all those kabooms because of the partially unsupported chamber + the reloading of once fired(by a glock) brass.
The partially unsupported chamber is a contributor to the problem. Brand new factory loads have blown them apart as well, not just reloads. The pressures in the S&W .40cal are very high.
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  #49  
Old 05-20-2009, 10:21 AM
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More angels dancing on the heads of pins.

Does Erich still have the same signature line?

I just shoot whatever comes to hand. I'm about an equally lousy shot with all three, the recoil doesn't really bother me with any of them, and my hands are big enough that a Glock 21 grip is too small.

That's why I like the replaceable backstrap on my 9 mm M&P.
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Old 05-21-2009, 03:38 AM
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Caliber wars.
Gotta love 'em.
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