Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >

Notices

Smith & Wesson Semi-Auto Pistols Other Smith & Wesson Semi-Automatic Pistols from the 1950's to Present


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 02-17-2008, 09:51 AM
gunfan gunfan is offline
Banned
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 228
Likes: 27
Liked 93 Times in 56 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by SPEEDGUNNER:
Interestingly, as this thread makes it topical, there is an Auto Ordnance 10mm conversion kit for the 1911 for sale on another forum. Isn't the 10mm cartridge by its nature too powerful for the standard government model frame? Isn't the Delta Elite a bit beefier? Just curious, no dog in the hunt on this one...
Not at all. A properly balanced spring arrangement cured the original problems associated with the Delta Elite. This alteration along with a new "bull" barrel (bushingless) arrangement will have the new 2008 Delta Elites humming along with the hot ammunition for a long, long time. Incidentally, the .38 Super has the same peak pressures as the 10mm Auto Pistol Cartridge (37,500 psi.) I have seen plenty of them running with full power ammunition for many years.

With Colt, Dan Wesson, Kimber, Fusion Arms, Wilson Combat and STI building 1911-based pistols running the 10mm Auto Pistol Cartridge for many thousands of rounds. A well-made 1911-pattern pistol of almost any stripe can handle the 10mm.

Scott
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 02-17-2008, 10:25 AM
Hot Toddy's Avatar
Hot Toddy Hot Toddy is offline
Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 98
Likes: 54
Liked 16 Times in 9 Posts
Default

Hey Folks!
Not to flame or start a peeing contest, however I would respectfully disagree with Fastbolt.
I have shot the 10mm for a few years and like any other caliber, practice, patience and shooting will overcome slow reflexes and recovery times.
When I qualified with a SOT team a few years back, I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with the Glock I was forced to shoot because of the rangemasters preference. I was told to stick to being a Medic.
However we were allowed to shoot and carry a "Backup" gun.
Not only did I improve my times and accuracy, but I was in the top 2 shooters of the team. This was with a Colt Double Eagle in 10mm.
The rangemaster informed me that I need to carry the Colt and skip the Glocks.
Also nto to stand by him if I am shooting a Glock! LOL!!
There is simply no substitute for practice and knowing you carry weapon.
With that being said, I agree that the 10mm is not a beginners caliber with any stretch of the imagination.
I can only imagine what it is like to train the great masses in CCW and Fastbolt has my greatest respect and honor.
Just my 2 cents. Take care and God Bless...HT
__________________
Jesus is Lord
John 3:16
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 02-17-2008, 12:29 PM
Old Navy's Avatar
Old Navy Old Navy is offline
Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: State of Misery
Posts: 943
Likes: 0
Liked 32 Times in 25 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Fastbolt:
Well, if that were the case, and if whatever factors and circumstances were involved in making that determination were the primary reason to select a service cartridge ... then you'd think we'd be seeing more of it in LE & military, usage, wouldn't you?
Seems you never been involved in even low level politics, office or government. If that statement were true, we would not have had the M16 problems, not have went to a P92 as standard side arm, but we needed to renew the lease on a USAF base in Italy, and I hate to think of the number of different aircraft the US either took or passed up due to politics.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fastbolt:There's no reason for 10mm enthusiasts to find it unpleasant or insulting that seemingly a number of folks who shoot semiauto pistols seem to find the felt recoil, muzzle blast and overall controllability of a 'full-power' 10mm load to be a bit on the undesired end of things.
True, and 10mm is my choise after many years a 45ACP man. I like the flat trejectory unavailable in a 180G plus 45ACP round.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fastbolt:
I'll grant that the 10mm is seemingly enjoying some apparent renewed interest among the firearms makers, and not just in a revolver platforms which was primarily intended for hunting enthusiasts. It's the major ammunition makers who need to come back into the fold and offer some upgraded defensive ammunition for the new (and old) platforms. I wouldn't be surprised to find some of the smaller ammunition makers enjoying this resurgence.
True enough I guess, but it is some what like saying which came first the chicken or the egg. Which needs to come first gun or ammo.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fastbolt:
I've qualified a handful of CCW folks who carried 10mm pistols, including G20's, a couple of Colt models and S&W 1006 pistols. Virtually without exception these folks all exhibited somewhat slower recoil recovery and recoil management when observed alongside everyone else at the same time, shooting all manner of other cartridges. If that reflects the 'average' lawful CCW person, then wouldn't it be prudent to consider that maybe some folks might ... just might ... be better served with a cartridge which allowed them something of an advantage in these potentially critical issues.
That just goes back to traning and firing the gun enough, most CCW civilians don't just because of the cost of ammo.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fastbolt:
When you consider that CCW folks have generally gone to the trouble to buy their own firearms, equipment and ammunition ... compared to most LE who have it issued to them ... then I'd offer that it might be a valid concern to adopt a defensive service caliber, or a selection of calibers, which might prove better suited to the wide range of folks who enter LE work.
That does sound kind of silly to me, unless I am misreading, that a person should only by what LEO use.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fastbolt:
Not everyone wants a 'heavy caliber' sidearm, nor is everyone likely to be able to be qualified with one.
That is true, but I have seen a lot of LEO's in years past that were helped or fudged to get them through the shooting section of the LEO course

Quote:
Originally posted by Fastbolt:
While felt recoil may not be a problem when it comes to target shooting or performing a controlled pair or 'triple' shot string on a static range ... or during a pleasant afternoon at the local outdoor shooting venue ... sometimes controllability, recovery and even safe handling issues may arise when someone is forced to complete a dynamic, timed course of fire which can involve conditions including, movement, shooting while moving, shooting weak-handed, engaging multiple targets in reduced light conditions which require judgment for Shoot/No-Shoot decisions, etc., etc..
Again most civilian agencies do not do enough arms training. That is why LEO's will sometimes fire 40 or 50 rounds or more at a person and only have a couple of hits if any.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fastbolt:
How many folks do you know who find shooting 10mm pistols to offer them an advantage when competing in IDPA or other competitive venues? If the felt recoil and controllability wasn't an issue, what else would mitigate against it being used with some frequency in events where speed, controllability & accuracy were useful, even if only in winning against time & paper?
People who shoot those courses generally have hand loaded lighter loads to help control recoil, be it 9mm, 38 Super, 45ACP or 10mm caliber.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fastbolt:
Hey, I have nothing against the caliber. I may pick up one of the new Colts at some point. I've always thought that if Colt improved their platform compared to their previous offering, or S&W or Ruger would introduce a robust defensive-type pistol model chambered in the 10mm, that I'd want to get one.

It wouldn't necessarily replace my many other defensive weapons, though. I just happen to think the 10mm was an interesting cartridge to have been developed in American handgun history.

I also liked the .41 Magnum, for that matter.

That didn't remain considered a viable LE/defensive cartridge for very many years,however, either. Still a good cartridge, though.
Don't BS us BS'ers

PS: The 41 revolver died early death due to rise of high compasity autoloading pistols and IMHO the rush to have officers make up defiencies of accuracy by high volume of fire. I mean the LEO went from carrying 18 rounds on average to 40 to 60 rounds in just 3 magazines.
__________________
Cranky Old Retired Guy
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 02-17-2008, 12:42 PM
dmc8163's Avatar
dmc8163 dmc8163 is offline
SWCA Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 207
Likes: 52
Liked 52 Times in 24 Posts
Default

Fastbolt,

You have NO idea how much you will enjoy retirement and how little you will miss “the job.” Honestly.

Back to the 10 mm. I agree with Hot Toddy. When the 1076 was tested at Quantico with the original Norma ammunition even I joined the chorus that opined that the round was absolutely not suitable as a general issue service round. “Hand cannon” was the thought that raced through my mind the first time I fired a 1076 and Norma ammunition. If that is what you mean by a "full power" 10 mm round I would agree. But the point FTU (i.e., John Hall) was making in the recommendation that the 10 mm was in its infancy and had dramatic possibilities for improvement. Instead the entire effort to advance the goal of increased protection of law enforcement officers (and the public) through better firepower was still born for no justifiable reason.

If, for example, the FBI had not unilaterally destroyed the S&W Model 1076 in the eyes of the shooting public stigmatizing the 10 mm for all time where do you suppose the 10 mm round might be at present after 25 years of development?

I submit that in all likelihood the 10 mm would have continued to develop into the standard that the .45 now occupies. I also believe that the .40 would have sprung from the development of the 10 mm and become the standard to replace the 9 mm (as it has now).

As for combat shooting the Model 1076 I have fired 6,500 rounds during qualifying and training runs on law enforcement ranges (’91; ’93-’98). This included CQB, moving targets, night shooting, etc. etc. Prior to the 1076 I fired a revolver and was a certified firearm’s instructor. I never fired better scores or had more confidence in my abilities than when I carried and fired my 1076 (s). And I don’t believe you will any LE officer that carried a 1076 on duty that will say otherwise. There was nothing wrong with the 1076 that could not be fixed through minor engineering changes, training and gun maintenance.

Zounds! Shades of the AR-15/M-16!

After my 1076 was forcibly taken from me by evildoers I was issued a Glock. Although I carried, practiced and qualified for 6 years with both a 22 and a 23 I never achieved the success I had with the 1076 and I absolutely never felt comfortable with carrying the pistol on the street.

Having taken a CCW class post retirement I see your point about the students. Most of the students in the class I took couldn’t hit the silhouette in a target at the 7 yard line with a 9 mm. But we are talking law enforcement and military use here, not civilian. (By the way, bless you for teaching the CCW classes – patience of a Saint)


As for using less powerful handguns for competition – sure, why not go with the leastest you can get away with. They would shoot .22s if you let them. Just look at the loads in cowboy action shooting.

It is my hope that the 10 mm gains more than nominal interest from a devoted but small core of enthusiasts. It has great potential if given the chance.

But I will never, ever forget John Hall’s warnings on handguns in law enforcement. To paraphrase, if you are going to carry a 9mm on the job it’s a good thing you can load it up with 15 or 16 rounds because you are going to need every one of them to stop the bad guy even if you hit him. [My apologies to John if I have butchered his eloquent admonition]
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 02-17-2008, 12:45 PM
Fastbolt's Avatar
Fastbolt Fastbolt is offline
Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: CA Central Coast
Posts: 4,263
Likes: 731
Liked 5,377 Times in 1,841 Posts
Default

I don't see that we really disagree on the idea that familiarization, consistent training and skills development can mitigate the increased felt recoil of the original full-power 10mm cartridge Hot Toddy.

Maybe I should have phrased my comments more carefully.

I think the 10mm requires more training than the average owner/user might be willing to invest in when it comes to their time, focus and perhaps money. We agree that the 10mm likely isn't any body's idea of a 'beginners' caliber, and I just sort of extend that definition to encompass the 'casual' owner or user who only shoots enough to demonstrate minimally 'acceptable' skill levels when required to do so on some basic course-of-fire ... but doesn't do much, if any, practice the rest of the time.

How about the .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum?

These revolver cartridges have both seen a fair bit of LE and non-LE defensive carry throughout the years. Perhaps a significant amount of that usage has involved practice and qualification with a standard pressure or +P .38 Spl in the case of the .357 Magnum, and a .44 Special (or reduced Magnum load) in the case of the .44 Magnum ... but then the owners/users may choose to actually carry and depend on the full-power Magnum loads. I think perhaps some of them do themselves a disservice by not practicing with their chosen Magnum load at least sufficiently enough to have the earned confidence that they can perform as well on a qualification course-of-fire with the Magnum load as with the reduced load.

At a certain point in my career I realized I needed to start practicing and qualifying with full-power loads in both of those revolver calibers. Of course, I can't remember the last time I carried a .44 Magnum inside a city/suburban area, but I still run it through the standard qualification courses-of-fire upon occasion, just to remain current, and I use Magnum ammunition with bullet weights of 240 & 315gr JHP when I do.

Both of these excellent revolver cartridges have served their owners/users well over the years, but it might not be unfair to say that not all of those folks may have really developed their skills and abilities to the point where they were up to the task of being able to shoot the full-power loads as well as the reduced-power loads, especially when things became fuzzy.

I just include some of the 10mm owners with whom I've worked in that general grouping of "not as skilled as they could be in order to effectively use the cartridge". Why do a good number of IDPA folks use the 9mm, do you think? Or a standard pressure .45 ACP if they prefer .45 ACP, instead of +P?

Everyone's got to find their own level, and I think the harder recoiling calibers tend to make a number of folks shy away from them to lesser recoiling calibers. That's fine. I think, however, that the folks who are just handed a piece of safety equipment ... in this case a pistol ... might not have the interest and motivation to ever do as well with a harder recoiling caliber, especially if they aren't gun enthusiasts. When it comes to equipment like handguns, intended to serve a 'bell curve' segment of users, sometimes the equipment most easily used by the greatest number of folks may tend to be on the lesser recoiling, more easily controlled range of the common calibers. The cost of training from an agency perspective isn't exactly insignificant, you know.

BTW, I know an older gentleman (compared to me, and I'm in my mid-fifties ) who owns, qualifies with and carries a pair of Colt Double Eagles for his CCW. Does respectably well with them, too.

I think the newest Colt 10mm is an interesting pistol. About time. I'm hoping it does well enough that Colt keeps it in the lineup this time, and that the other company's models enjoy some increased sales, as well.

Now it's time for the major ammunition companies to get it in gear and offer greater quantities of 10mm ammunition, including target, hunting and personal defense loadings.

Of course, I also think the .38 Super has languished long enough, too.

Best regards. Enjoy that 10mm Colt for many year to come.
__________________
Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 02-17-2008, 01:27 PM
Old Navy's Avatar
Old Navy Old Navy is offline
Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: State of Misery
Posts: 943
Likes: 0
Liked 32 Times in 25 Posts
Default

I still think it was a mistake to go to spray and pray training or attitudes. The 357 would be better in most cases then any 9mm or 40 cal for sure, but politics will be politics.

The 9mm in 1911 frame is probably about the best combo that you could come up with for IDPA or other competitive venues, very low recoil, yet as accurate or maybe more so then the 45ACP.

The 38Super would make a far better round then, IMHO, any 9mm, 40 cal, 45ACP, or 10mm for that matter for lots of reasons. Basically the 38Super power is about that of the 357 magnum and the 10mm was more like the 41 magnum. Wow who would think it would be any other way. Then enter politic's and political correctness and everthing goes to hell in a handbasket.

I thought long and hard about going 38 super instead of 10mm, but 10mm won out for several reasons. Main reasons were availability of guns chambered for those calibers, ease of buying ammo, and finally what handloading could do with the round.

I still may buy 38 super 1911 next year, but not for CCW. I don't like a 1911 for CCW unless I'm using ball ammo due to gun designed for ball ammo. However WW JHPST's seem to do real well in 1911's, and is only ammo I use in my CS45.
__________________
Cranky Old Retired Guy
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #57  
Old 02-17-2008, 02:09 PM
Fastbolt's Avatar
Fastbolt Fastbolt is offline
Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: CA Central Coast
Posts: 4,263
Likes: 731
Liked 5,377 Times in 1,841 Posts
Default

Howdy Old Navy.

The first comment you quoted was made by me with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek. Politics and Police work both start with a "P".

Training. Costs money and time. Then there's that whole 'interest & motivation' thing. Not everyone has all of them. More's the pity.

The cost of ammunition and range time isn't inconsiderable nowadays. I certainly wouldn't be able to shoot as much as I do if I wasn't an instructor. The primary reason I applied to join the training unit in the first place was so I could shoot & train more ... and not spend my own money. Okay, getting paid to do it didn't (and still doesn't) hurt, either.

I have no illusions that my shooting frequency will be a lot less once I retire and no longer have access to the agency's ammunition inventory and range, as well. Of course, I'll have significantly fewer guns pointed in my direction, too.

Quote:
Don't BS us BS'ers
Hey, I really DO like the 10mm as a cartridge. I just lost some interest Ruger decided to change calibers on their pending P90 platform from 10mm to .45 ACP, and only released a P91 in .40 S&W, and then the S&W 10XX platform was dropped.

I knew a number of guys who used to carry .41 & .44 Magnum revolvers as service revolvers, FWIW.

I handled and fired a G20 when they were just being imported into the US, in the late summer of '90, I think it was. Interesting gun. Decently controllable even with the Norma ammunition. Offered one by the Glock rep for $315 w/3 magazines. I was just too wrapped up in my .45's (and still grudgingly accepting the 9mm) at that time. Besides, the Glock still gave me that 'Crosman pellet gun' feeling back then.

I enjoy teaching the CCW classes, for the most part. Teaching cops can have its rewards, but a significant number of them are only at the range because they're required to be there. We give them the guns, the ammunition, the targets, access to a range and the instructors to help them develop their skills ... and yet a disappointing number of them only come when they're required to be there. Even then, there's always that small number that fail to show up until threatened with disciplinary action, too. I try to interest folks in coming down on their own time for some extra practice ... all they have to spend is their time ... but not with a lot of success.

The CCW folks, on the hand, have to spend hard-earned money to get there, have taken time out of their own schedules and have bought their own guns, holsters and cleaning equipment. They generally seem to appreciate someone showing up and helping them complete their classroom training & range qualification.

I could wish more of them showed up having familiarized themselves with their chosen weapons and carry methods before the class, though.

Then, there's the folks who show up with a pistol and ONE magazine. Slows things down for everyone.

Or, the folks who show up with "mystery" ammunition and magazines, sometimes neither of which will complete a string of fire without problems, let alone the whole course of fire. I no longer let them see me shake my head when I ask about the ammunition & magazines and hear some variation of, "But I didn't want to bring my GOOD magazines and ammunition down to the range." There's a reason we've had to start imposing more rules and conditions for CCW ranges over the years.

All in all, though, I do enjoy my time with the folks in the CCW classes. If nothing else, it's refreshing to discuss firearms safety and the laws governing the use of deadly force with folks who aren't impressed with themselves because of the fact they carry a badge. I'll be one of them, soon enough.

I'm really looking forward to retirement dmc8163. All my retired friends keep reminding me to do it as soon as possible, but I still have some things to arrange ... for myself and my family ... in order to feel relaxed and comfortable about it. I could leave tomorrow if someone really annoyed me (which is great feeling by itself), and do fairly well enough, but I'd rather leave on my own terms after lining up everything the way I'd like it to be before walking out.

Quote:
It is my hope that the 10 mm gains more than nominal interest from a devoted but small core of enthusiasts. It has great potential if given the chance.
We can only hope. I wouldn't hold my breath about it ever becoming a mainstream LE cartridge ... (consider all of the 'non-gun enthusiasts' and folks of diminutive stature that are entering the LE field in increasing numbers) ... but I could see it enjoy a reawakening among non-LE users if the ammunition & firearms folks decide there's an increasing interest in the commercial market.

BTW Old Navy, the only reason I made the comment about the ammunition manufacturers needing to devote some attention to the 10mm is that I've repeatedly heard from at least 3 of the major gun companies, during phone conversations and in some armorer classes, that they monitor the production and sales of commercial ammunition when deciding how to manage their firearms production ... and they've all kept saying that commercial sales of ammunition was always lacking when it came to the interest displayed by the commercial market in the 10mm. In other words, they really only seemed to consider the sale of loaded ammunition, and not components (reloading), or, apparently, the success of smaller makers of ammunition for some of the 'niche' shooters.

If both the ammunition and firearms companies prescribed to the 'If you build it, they will come' philosophy regarding the 10mm, things might get really interesting in the near future.

Take care guys.

Best regards.
fb
__________________
Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 02-17-2008, 03:12 PM
Old Navy's Avatar
Old Navy Old Navy is offline
Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: State of Misery
Posts: 943
Likes: 0
Liked 32 Times in 25 Posts
Default

Having retired a number of years ago (about 15) one very important thing to remenber is do your best to make them pay the retirement for a long time. In doing that there is a real sense of having achieved something and got back at the system. So don't wait too long, just remember the guy that said life begins at 50 was a lying *** who didn't know what he was talking about.
__________________
Cranky Old Retired Guy
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 02-17-2008, 03:29 PM
dmc8163's Avatar
dmc8163 dmc8163 is offline
SWCA Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 207
Likes: 52
Liked 52 Times in 24 Posts
Default

KMA must be a wonderful feeling Fastbolt. But I never got a chance to find out. I was happily out the door the day of my eligibility. And I was getting cussed out by my brethren who weren't able to go with me. And wouldn't you know it, six moths later I get a call from *** telling me to turn in my gun and badge or they would open upna criminal case on me. After I calmly and patiently responded that I did turn them in and had the paperwork to prove it they admitted that they must be lost because the gun never reached the gun folks. LOL I love it.
It never ends.

happy Little Camper in NC
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 02-17-2008, 04:30 PM
Hot Toddy's Avatar
Hot Toddy Hot Toddy is offline
Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 98
Likes: 54
Liked 16 Times in 9 Posts
Default

Hey Folks!
Thanks for the comment Fastbolt. One of the many things about this forum I enjoy is being able to disagree and discuss a point like adults and learn in the process.

However I just have one question even though this is the S&W forum, What is this about a "New" Colt in 10mm? Pictures, specifics, etc would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks and God Bless...HT
__________________
Jesus is Lord
John 3:16
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old 02-17-2008, 05:22 PM
Old Navy's Avatar
Old Navy Old Navy is offline
Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: State of Misery
Posts: 943
Likes: 0
Liked 32 Times in 25 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Hot Toddy:
Hey Folks!
Thanks for the comment Fastbolt. One of the many things about this forum I enjoy is being able to disagree and discuss a point like adults and learn in the process.

However I just have one question even though this is the S&W forum, What is this about a "New" Colt in 10mm? Pictures, specifics, etc would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks and God Bless...HT
Colt has brought back the Delta Elite 10mm 1911 in limited production run, just as S&W seems to have done with the model 610 10mm revolver. How long either company will produce these guns is unknown and will most likely depend on sales. I have done my part for S&W 10mm buying a 610-3 6.5 " revolver, some others here need to step up and do the same.
__________________
Cranky Old Retired Guy
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 02-17-2008, 06:15 PM
Fastbolt's Avatar
Fastbolt Fastbolt is offline
Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: CA Central Coast
Posts: 4,263
Likes: 731
Liked 5,377 Times in 1,841 Posts
Default

Quote:
KMA must be a wonderful feeling Fastbolt.
Heh ... it can be. My wife keeps waiting for me to walk in one evening and tell her I won't be returning to work except to turn in my car.

Although there's still some things I'd like to see completed in my additional duties (some committee work, bringing at least a couple of instructors & armorers up to speed so they don't notice that I'm gone when I walk out the door), I could walk out of my regular job assignment tomorrow and not miss it by the evening when I sat down to enjoy a good cigar and an adult beverage.

De nada Hot Toddy. That's one of the pleasant things about this forum. Much more polite & cordial than some other forums. Nobody has to be strident and obnoxious about being heard, being "right" or being "super tactical" and an expert. Everybody ought to be able to sit back and enjoy some level of participation in the friendly discussion. I sure learn something new and interesting most times I log on ...

Old Navy , here's a link to another forum where some images were posted. I prefer to use the link so the person who took the time to post the images gets some recognition for his contribution (dunno the guy, myself, but it's the polite thing to do).
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...ight=colt+10mm

I was thinking back to my last Colt armorer class, and some discussion about the earlier Delta Elite. The reintroduction of an improved Delta has been somewhere back on one of the back burners, and the instructor said that the general feeling at Colt was that they would probably be willing to make at least a limited run of guns if they thought they would get orders for them. The instructor said that a minimum number of about 300 had been floated about back then, and that the model might be brought back. Looks like it has, at least for a bit. Considering some of the other trivia kicked around, I'm a little curious if there's been a change in the strength of the recoil spring in this newest model.
__________________
Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 02-17-2008, 07:35 PM
Old Navy's Avatar
Old Navy Old Navy is offline
Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: State of Misery
Posts: 943
Likes: 0
Liked 32 Times in 25 Posts
Default

Thanks for the link, but as they say... Been there, done that. I have seen the ShotShow pictures of the new Elite. May get one, but just never really liked the feel of 1911 as well as CZ & S&W 3rd gen guns for feel of grip.

Hey just noticed that you are Sig tec, is it true that Sig says do not dry fire their guns? I was told that by a Sig rep and wondered if he was FOS or not.
__________________
Cranky Old Retired Guy
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 02-17-2008, 08:16 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,194
Likes: 234
Liked 2,323 Times in 1,250 Posts
Default

We issued the 1006, starting in about 1991/92 and kept it till 2006. I'm not gonna hash over some of the things said here, but the reason the 10mm got picked #1 was politics. There's secondary consideration that it's a hell of a subgun round, but that blows the 1 type of ammo argument right out of the water if you have 10mm for the subgun and 10 lite for the handgun.

We used a custom load: 180 @ 1200 +/- 50 fps for years. Our officerettes had no problem with the load, but the N frame length of reach to the DA trigger was an issue for many.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 02-18-2008, 05:56 AM
Old Navy's Avatar
Old Navy Old Navy is offline
Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: State of Misery
Posts: 943
Likes: 0
Liked 32 Times in 25 Posts
Default

The main reason I see of PD's going to polly guns is weight and ease of carrying all day by the officers, large or small, and the fact that that differential alllowed for carrying more gear such as taser or extra ammo w/o straining the officer so much.

The gun manufactures really like the polly guns because of ability to make them cheaper and still charge about the same price, thus have a greater proffit margin. The long term unit cost of a M&P over a 3rd gen S&W is most likely about 1/10th the cost and that is some big proffit bucks over a 5 or 10 year period.

It always comes down to money & politics and the public always gets the short end of the stick.
__________________
Cranky Old Retired Guy
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 02-18-2008, 10:22 AM
gunfan gunfan is offline
Banned
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 228
Likes: 27
Liked 93 Times in 56 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Old Navy:
The main reason I see of PD's going to polly guns is weight and ease of carrying all day by the officers, large or small, and the fact that that differential alllowed for carrying more gear such as taser or extra ammo w/o straining the officer so much.

The gun manufactures really like the polly guns because of ability to make them cheaper and still charge about the same price, thus have a greater proffit margin. The long term unit cost of a M&P over a 3rd gen S&W is most likely about 1/10th the cost and that is some big proffit bucks over a 5 or 10 year period.

It always comes down to money & politics and the public always gets the short end of the stick.

Did you ever doubt it? The 10mm is a great round, due to its "flexibility" (read: versatility.) The Military and rural Police departements benefit most from the round. The civilian sector gathers the gleaned benefits from both! The 10mm is much maligned and misunderstood piece of ordnance. The reasons for it's resurgence are many; its detractors remain flummoxed. Long live the 10mm!

Scott
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #67  
Old 02-18-2008, 11:30 AM
Old Navy's Avatar
Old Navy Old Navy is offline
Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: State of Misery
Posts: 943
Likes: 0
Liked 32 Times in 25 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by gunfan:
Did you ever doubt it? The 10mm is a great round, due to its "flexibility" (read: versatility.) The Military and rural Police departements benefit most from the round. The civilian sector gathers the gleaned benefits from both! The 10mm is much maligned and misunderstood piece of ordnance. The reasons for it's resurgence are many; its detractors remain flummoxed. Long live the 10mm!

Scott
"flummoxed", and you just had to make an old fart do a Google didn't you.

I have a friend who has always smirked at my 10mm's, but he is a 40/45 man. The only 45 he owns is one I traded to him, but I finally got through to him recently by saying think 40 magnum automatic. Now he is talking about getting a G20 (10mm), just could not get him to look at a 610 4" at all. I guess he believes in volume not accuracy.
__________________
Cranky Old Retired Guy
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 02-18-2008, 12:54 PM
Fastbolt's Avatar
Fastbolt Fastbolt is offline
Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: CA Central Coast
Posts: 4,263
Likes: 731
Liked 5,377 Times in 1,841 Posts
Default

Old Navy,

Nothing in the armorer's manual I could find about dry-fire being prohibited in Sig center-fire pistols, and I don't remember anything said about not doing it in the class. We sure did enough of it during the 2-day class. If you call Sig I'm fairly certain they'll tell you it's okay to dry-fire the center-fire pistols ... just not the .22 Mosquito. Phone: (603) 772-2302 (press #3 for Customer Service and follow the menu tree).
__________________
Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 02-18-2008, 01:15 PM
Old Navy's Avatar
Old Navy Old Navy is offline
Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: State of Misery
Posts: 943
Likes: 0
Liked 32 Times in 25 Posts
Default

I don't own any Sig's (center fire models) anymore, but had just heard that (after selling my P220) they were not to be dry fired. All 22 rimfire should not be dry fired, do to firing pin striking edge of the chamber and breaking or at least being damaged or damaging breach, or both. S&W revolvers can be dry fired as can most rim fire revolvers.
__________________
Cranky Old Retired Guy
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 02-18-2008, 05:47 PM
dmc8163's Avatar
dmc8163 dmc8163 is offline
SWCA Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 207
Likes: 52
Liked 52 Times in 24 Posts
Default

WR Moore,

Your Dept carried 1006s until 2006! Fantastic! Based on my research the Nuclear Regulatory Commission maintained 1006s as their issue weapon longer than any other agency. Can you advise which Dept and whether they were traded in on new handguns?
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 02-19-2008, 09:55 AM
M29-3 M29-3 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Rocky Mountains
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Landric:
IMO, the "Miami Shootout" was more a failure of tactics and shot placement (and being outgunned by a suspect with a rifle) than an ammunition failure....
"imHo", and at risk of generating a firestorm, it seemed to me at the time the problem was with training and supervision. "Tactics", yes, but that is a result of training and supervision. The two good agents who perished in that firesack should not have died in such a manner. One of the perps (as I recall) had multiple wounds and like the trained fighter he had obviously been, kept on fighting to the death. At the time I suspected they were high on drugs of some kind, having dealt with pcp perps before, but later tests reported there were no drugs detected in the perps. So only prior training and adrenalin could account for the one guys ability to keep on fighting with serious wounds.
(edit, after reading: In the rush I neglected to mention the Agent who also perservered through serious injuries and finally put an end to both perps as they were, as I recall, about to exit the scene.)
Same problems, imho, with the Newhall incident years earlier.
"Tactics", yes. But tactics are a result of training and supervision. At least, "imHo". And, with apologies to anyone with contrasting view developed from a closer relationship with the actual event and people involved.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 02-25-2008, 08:34 PM
glypnir glypnir is offline
Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Yankee happy in Texas
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Some of my opinions, for what they're worth - not much.

1. As an engineer - an old engineer - I've consistently observed that for any engineering project the politics are always 10 times more complex than the technics.

2. I've only fired one 10 mm, and that is the Glock. It did take me significantly longer to get back on target than it does with a 9 mm, for example.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the 1076 was much quicker back on target - it's much heavier.

3. Much of the current consumer gun market seems to be driven by CCW. At the gun stores I frequent, it seems to be mouse guns galore. Lots of 380s. The 10 mm doesn't really go with that trend.

Someone made a good point IMHO, about people practicing with 38 special and then thinking they can shoot with .357 mag. I'm working on getting grips for my 640-3 so that I can shoot even short barrel .357 mag rounds without too much pain. It's hard. I can't imagine shooting an airweight. Or I can, and I don't want to try it. I have fired .38 +p in a 442. 5 rounds was enough.

I think that a small concealable 10 mm would have the same problems.

In a big metal pistol, I think it would do just fine, but that is more of a hunting and LEO proposition than a CCW. The Glock didn't cause any pain, just a bit slower recovery time.

In our Registered Magnum, with the Pachmeyer presentations, the .357 Magnums don't cause any pain, just a bit slower recovery.
__________________
Regulate Banks, not guns
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 02-25-2008, 09:29 PM
Old Navy's Avatar
Old Navy Old Navy is offline
Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: State of Misery
Posts: 943
Likes: 0
Liked 32 Times in 25 Posts
Default

The DAO 1086 is amazingly lighter then the 1006.







The 1006 has less recoil then then my 642-2 does with +P ammo The 1086 one the other hand has considerable more recoil then the 642-2 does and would take some working with to shoot effectively.
__________________
Cranky Old Retired Guy
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 02-26-2008, 10:00 PM
Mortech's Avatar
Mortech Mortech is offline
Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Shelton WA
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Very informative thread , you gotta excuse Gunfan (hope to see ya next month in Gig Harbor) he's the king 10MM pimpdaddy of the Puget Sound . He and a coworker even got me hooked on 10MMs . Now to find a 1076 ........
__________________
39-2,59,3913,M&P40
1006,1066
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 12-10-2008, 04:21 PM
Outrider Outrider is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Greenwood, SC
Posts: 320
Likes: 25
Liked 46 Times in 30 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Old Navy:
The DAO 1086 is amazingly lighter then the 1006.


The 1006 has less recoil then then my 642-2 does with +P ammo The 1086 one the other hand has considerable more recoil then the 642-2 does and would take some working with to shoot effectively.
Old Navy,

I have to politely disagree with your premise.

I've shot both 1086s and 1006s extensively side by side -- as well as a 640 with .38s (admittedly not a 642, but not that different in weight).

The difference in recoil on the 10s is negligible -- with the 640 (granted, again, not a 642) with .38s is more "pronounced".

All Smith 10s I've ever fired merely "bounce" with even the hottest loads. All revolvers tend to "buck and torque"...

It's inconceivable to me that you could say the 642 recoils less than the 1086 -- unless you had a slip of the fingers...

(I went back and reread that the 1086 has more recoil than a 642...I find that just..."unaccountable".)

I also don't believe there's that much difference in the weight on the 1006 and 1086. And as I said, I've shot and carried them side by side -- quite a bit. The 1086 is only 3/4s of an inch shorter. I'll check the original specs -- but I think the 1006 is 38 ounces -- unloaded -- about the same as an old Colt 1911.)

Something's off somewhere in perception -- somewhere....
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 12-10-2008, 04:27 PM
Outrider Outrider is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Greenwood, SC
Posts: 320
Likes: 25
Liked 46 Times in 30 Posts
Default

Maybe there's a difference in the recoil spring in the 10s...
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 12-10-2008, 04:39 PM
Outrider Outrider is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Greenwood, SC
Posts: 320
Likes: 25
Liked 46 Times in 30 Posts
Default

The 642 is 15 ounces -- versus 23 oz. for the 640 -- a mere 8 oz. differnece.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 12-10-2008, 04:39 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,194
Likes: 234
Liked 2,323 Times in 1,250 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by dmc8163:
WR Moore,

Your Dept carried 1006s until 2006! Fantastic! Based on my research the Nuclear Regulatory Commission maintained 1006s as their issue weapon longer than any other agency. Can you advise which Dept and whether they were traded in on new handguns?
If the NRC has/had armed staff I'm unaware of it-and I've operated under their oversight for over 20 years.

We traded our 1006s in on M&P40s. We were able to buy M&Ps for the whole department for less than replacing the 1006's with 4006s for the half that had them. We'd have preferred the M&P9, but we couldn't get a firm delivery date and were running out of 10mm ammo.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 12-10-2008, 08:27 PM
CTPete CTPete is online now
Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: FL & CT USA
Posts: 575
Likes: 7
Liked 86 Times in 25 Posts
Default

Great thread. Just great!
__________________
Pete T. (aka Ted1Trading)
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 12-10-2008, 08:53 PM
Outrider Outrider is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Greenwood, SC
Posts: 320
Likes: 25
Liked 46 Times in 30 Posts
Default

Your department was running out of 10mm ammo?

As for me, I'd have let others get what they wanted -- and just bought myself some more ammo for my 1006...

I've never felt under-gunned in its company...ever...
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old 12-11-2008, 09:26 AM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,194
Likes: 234
Liked 2,323 Times in 1,250 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Outrider:
Your department was running out of 10mm ammo?

As for me, I'd have let others get what they wanted -- and just bought myself some more ammo for my 1006...
And you're going to buy this ammo where-in lots of 100,000 rounds or better? At a price that fits within the budget? If no one wants to supply ammo in the quantities necessary for training and practice at a price you can afford, the round is useless. We were able to keep it in service as long as we did by long term contracts orignially piggy-backed on federal contracts for millions of rounds. When they ceased, so did the manufacturers interest.

Bluntly, we originally adopted the 10mm for exactly the same reasons as the FBI/Virginia State Police: politics. Also the my gun/ammo is bigger than yours feeling that the guys making the decision got.

Whatever advantage you may feel the 10mm might have is negated when you can't train sufficiently to properly utilize the weapons system. Much better to have a caliber/weapons system that the troops can extensively train with.
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 12-11-2008, 03:59 PM
Outrider Outrider is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Greenwood, SC
Posts: 320
Likes: 25
Liked 46 Times in 30 Posts
Default

W.R.,

I was just messing with you and being needlessly facetious...

I understand all your points -- fully -- although I would prefer to carry the 1006 myself over just about anything else -- as a private citizen.

I do realize, however, I might feel differently if I had to supply all my practice and duty ammo.
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 02-05-2011, 05:55 PM
WJFranklin's Son WJFranklin's Son is offline
Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: South Florida
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Did any of you former FBI Agents know a former agent W. James Franklin?
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 02-05-2011, 10:37 PM
Outrider Outrider is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Greenwood, SC
Posts: 320
Likes: 25
Liked 46 Times in 30 Posts
Default

Would the "Miami Shootout" would have been a mere dusty footnote if the FBI agents at least had Mini-14s and properly plated vests -- along with decent tactics -- to match the bad guys?

The answer wasn't a switch to 10mm -- although I strongly favor the round.

It was being smart -- and doing things right. The agents should have had ARs -- and recognized that they were dealing with skilled gunmen who evidently planned to go out in a blaze of infamy.

By the way, about that same time, the .45 was considered a "man-killer" by many prosecutors -- and carried a stigma as such. (Not my words, but a prevailing delusion at the time.)

The round was also being abandoned by the U.S. military about that same time.

The whole affair was a shameful, nasty mess -- where good people died or were maimed needlessly.

(If you'll recall the details, at least one agent lost his pistol after a collision. Any way you dissect it, for the FBI, it was Murphy's Law -- cubed...)
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #85  
Old 02-06-2011, 01:13 AM
DC3-CVN-72 DC3-CVN-72 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Smile

I would like to take the time to thank everyone who contributed to my thread. I realy learned alot.
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 02-06-2011, 04:46 PM
sniper47's Avatar
sniper47 sniper47 is offline
Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Tucson
Posts: 985
Likes: 189
Liked 72 Times in 53 Posts
Default

Awesome thread. I love reading from the guys and gals who served in the FBI and learning all of the back room politics and deals that have been made regarding agency issued handguns. Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 02-06-2011, 05:25 PM
azasadny's Avatar
azasadny azasadny is offline
US Veteran
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Wyandotte, MI
Posts: 139
Likes: 9
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Excellent info in this thread, it should be a "sticky"!
__________________
S&W 645, 3913, 59, 669
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 02-06-2011, 05:53 PM
firearmsunlimited's Avatar
firearmsunlimited firearmsunlimited is offline
Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,192
Likes: 2
Liked 95 Times in 36 Posts
Default

Here is a link to an excellent article concerning the weapon & ammo specifications, testing and selection of the .45s currently issued the the FBI SWAT & CRG groups.
Most Wanted | American Handgunner | Find Articles at BNET
__________________
Doug
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 02-07-2011, 06:35 PM
Outrider Outrider is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Greenwood, SC
Posts: 320
Likes: 25
Liked 46 Times in 30 Posts
Default This sounds ODDLY familiar...

Here's an outtake from the above article. Such copyrighted material is permited to be reproduced in small outtakes as direct, attributed quotes...

But it pretty well sums up what everybody thought.

**********************************************************************************

Here goes:

...We contacted several agents familiar with the pistol selection and, after promising them anonymity, they agreed to comment:

"'When John Hall was in charge of the 10mm program, he told me, 'I love the .45, I carry a .45, but I couldn't go before Congress and ask for $3.5 million for a .45 when the army had just spent millions to replace the .45.' So we came up with a cartridge that ballistically was identical to it -- the downloaded 10mm," an FBI source said.

"The FBI has been conducting an ongoing study on ballistics since Miami [the 1986 massacre in which two agents died in a bloody gunfight with bank robbers]. They found the .45 is a pretty good round. In a tradeoff between controllability and knockdown power, the .45 is it. Confidence level is also a part of it [the decision to adopt the caliber]," said another informed source.

There! The words no one wants to admit officially: "knockdown power." You know that was the reason for the .45 specification; I know that; and surely the FBI knows that. But they aren't about to admit it. The assorted liberals in the alphabet soup-- HCI, ACLU, NAACP -- would have a field day with such an admission. You can just imagine the headlines: "FBI Shoots To Kill," "FBI Picks Deadliest Weapon."

**********************************************************************************

Apparently, some in a liberal Congress at the time wanted the 9mm because it was a "less-lethal" round....

Gee, nobody's ever put that sharp a point on it before. But it's clear some want the 9mm PRECISELY because the 9mm IS less deadly...

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...........

And don't forget that Ronald Reagan had been shot just a mere 7 weeks after taking office just a few years earlier.

Also, recall that Reagan's support for gun rights got a LOT spongier after that incident...

As much as I hate to say it, the shooting of U.S. Rep. Gabby Giffords also might have had a far, far, far worse outcome if she'd been hit on the same bullet path with a .45, a .357, a 10mm or a .40 -- as opposed to a 9mm.

Last edited by Outrider; 02-07-2011 at 06:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #90  
Old 02-07-2011, 07:00 PM
Outrider Outrider is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Greenwood, SC
Posts: 320
Likes: 25
Liked 46 Times in 30 Posts
Default

Plus, one of the reasons the FBI liked the 10mm is the ability to load it up or load it down.

Moreover, it had the potential to penetrate deeper -- while expanding to a desirable mushroom -- than a .45 or a 9mm. (Of course, that depends on the loading. One problem with full metal jacketed 9mms is their tendency to whizz straight through targets...So penetration isn't the only factor.)

Even the attentuated 10mm round the FBI "labs" were testing would have reached the heart of one suspect in the "Miami Massacre".

Still, what the FBI needed in that -- and any similar situation -- was the right rifle with the right load -- with a good 10mm as a BACKUP -- not a PRIMARY -- weapon.

Pistols are great -- but, people, there's a REASON THEY'RE CALLED "SIDEARMS"....

Pistols are BACKUP WEAPONRY....

Last edited by Outrider; 02-07-2011 at 07:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #91  
Old 02-07-2011, 07:24 PM
sniper47's Avatar
sniper47 sniper47 is offline
Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Tucson
Posts: 985
Likes: 189
Liked 72 Times in 53 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by firearmsunlimited View Post
Here is a link to an excellent article concerning the weapon & ammo specifications, testing and selection of the .45s currently issued the the FBI SWAT & CRG groups.
Most Wanted | American Handgunner | Find Articles at BNET
Good read. Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 03-20-2015, 02:27 AM
GunsandGars GunsandGars is offline
Member
F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Currently in Ogden Utah
Posts: 20
Likes: 49
Liked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gunfan View Post
Not at all. A properly balanced spring arrangement cured the original problems associated with the Delta Elite. This alteration along with a new "bull" barrel (bushingless) arrangement will have the new 2008 Delta Elites humming along with the hot ammunition for a long, long time. Incidentally, the .38 Super has the same peak pressures as the 10mm Auto Pistol Cartridge (37,500 psi.) I have seen plenty of them running with full power ammunition for many years.

With Colt, Dan Wesson, Kimber, Fusion Arms, Wilson Combat and STI building 1911-based pistols running the 10mm Auto Pistol Cartridge for many thousands of rounds. A well-made 1911-pattern pistol of almost any stripe can handle the 10mm.

Scott
Not true, Colt in their infinite wisdom once again chose to not have a fully supported chamber. Underwood ammunition lists right on its boxes "Not safe for use in Delta Elites"
__________________
Big papa K
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
1911, 357 magnum, 3913, 4506, 45acp, bull barrel, cartridge, colt, dan wesson, glock, hydra-shok, kimber, military, model 15, model 27, model 66, sig arms, smith and wesson, springfield, taser, thompson, winchester

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
45ACP/10MM MOUNTAIN GUN? REP S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 21 10-08-2011 02:50 AM
S&W MODEL 610 45ACP/10MM ROSTER WANTED to Buy 0 01-30-2011 08:06 PM
Chronograph info...9mm, .40S&W, 10mm, .45acp, .357 mag LOBO Ammo 11 02-27-2010 11:14 PM
Have 1076 10mm.... want 4586 .45acp Karnivore GUNS - For Sale or Trade 3 07-27-2009 01:51 AM
610 10MM 625 45ACP Clyds hf1960 S&W-Smithing 5 01-30-2009 07:52 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:02 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.42 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)