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  #1  
Old 10-27-2007, 07:03 PM
DC3-CVN-72 DC3-CVN-72 is offline
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I asked this over at T.H.R. and got some good feed back, so I thought I would ask it here. If their was so much wrong with the .9mm. why not immediatly arm the F.B.I.field agents with .45ACP. handguns after the 1986 Miami shoot out instead of developing a new round ? I think the .10mm. is a grate round & I love my model 1006, I'm just looking for the logic & history.
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Old 10-27-2007, 07:05 PM
WaterburyBob WaterburyBob is offline
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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After the 1986 Miami shootout, the FBI wanted a round that would easily penetrate a car's door and glass.
They wanted something even better at that than the .45, so the 10mm was developed for them as the answer; its power just couldn't be handled by all agents.
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  #3  
Old 10-27-2007, 08:43 PM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by WaterburyBob:
After the 1986 Miami shootout, the FBI wanted a round that would easily penetrate a car's door and glass.
They wanted something even better at that than the .45, so the 10mm was developed for them as the answer; its power just couldn't be handled by all agents.
Funny, the HRT chose a para-ord frame .45 ACP auto that they spent thousands of our $ on only to discover it had mag problems.

They should've stayed with the 9mm.
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Old 10-27-2007, 11:32 PM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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The FBI studies ranked the 10mm in 180gr only slightly better than the 45ACP with a 230gr (sectional density).
Actually, the study said that if the 45 were to be adopted that they would be satisfied but recommended the 10mm because it was the best.

If you Google Martin Fackler and sectional density a lot should come up. The FBI reports are on the FBI FOIA page, unfortunately I don't have a link handy.
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Old 10-27-2007, 11:34 PM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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IMO, the "Miami Shootout" was more a failure of tactics and shot placement (and being outgunned by a suspect with a rifle) than an ammunition failure. The ammunition basically performed as it was designed to. The fact that a single bullet that could have been fatal failed to penetrate deeply enough is not a very good argument for changing bullet design, weight, and chambering.

Overall, the Silvertip worked very well (and I suspect it still does). If anything the FBI did the law enforcement world a great disservice by promoting the Winchester Olin Super Match 147 grain JHP as a better overall law enforcement/self-defense round than the 115 grain Silvertip. The circumstances encountered in the "Miami Shootout" were quite unique. No single weapon or ammunition can possibly cover all possible situations.

That said, I think the 10mm is a great pistol cartridge, and I would much rather the FBI and law enforcement in general stuck with it in its full-power loading. It is really not that hard to control in guns like the S&W 1076, it packs a punch, and it is very accurate. I've been in law enforcement over 11 years. Anyone who has enough upper body strength to be able to handle themselves on the street can control a full-power 10mm (and yes, that includes small framed females, I have worked with several who were tough as nails and probably stronger than I am). People who cannot shoot the 10mm can also not shoot the .40S&W, the .45ACP, the 9x19mm, or the .38 Special. They just cannot shoot and use the complaint that the 10mm recoils too much as a crutch to point a finger elsewhere. The grip on single stack 10mm pistols is also slim enough that just about anyone can handle one. No single handgun works for everyone of course.

Too bad the 10mm didn't stick around in greater numbers, I'd love the 10mm ammo and brass to be more affordable so I could shoot mine more.
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Old 10-27-2007, 11:47 PM
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The 10mm has a higher sectional density. High sectional density = better penetration of auto bodies, auto glass, heavy clothing and getting to the vital organs of large/fat bad guys. The .45 is great for making wide holes in open targets but does not penetrate obstacles as well as the 10mm.


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Old 10-28-2007, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
IMO, the "Miami Shootout" was more a failure of tactics and shot placement (and being outgunned by a suspect with a rifle) than an ammunition failure.
As Jeff Cooper said, an agent with a Winchester 94 could have stopped that debacle in short order. It was a case of not bringing enough gun to the gunfight (I believe the Agents were armed only with pistols and had one shotgun among them).

This and the North Hollywood bank shootout taught LE that when you are invited to a gunfight bring a big enough dance partner.
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Old 10-28-2007, 11:39 AM
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bwh,
I agree with you 1000%.
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Old 10-28-2007, 12:10 PM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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.45 Autos were authorized for agents almost immediately after the 4/11/86 shootout, and at least one .45 has been on the approved list since. I've carried a personally owned, Bureau approved Sig P220 for over 16 years. Ammo was originally the 185 grain Silvertip, then the 230 grain Hydra-Shok, and now its the 230 Golden Saber.

Field agents can carry the Glock 21, and Sig 220s like mine are grandfathered in, though no longer on the approved list. SWAT agents are issued a Springfield 1911, and the HRT guys carry the hi-cap .45 ACP.

There is a lot of internet bull**** out there about 4/11/86 in general and the 10mm in particular. The Bu did extensive ammunition tests based on what the Bureau wanted a handgun round to do. To their immense credit, they opened the testing up to all commercially available rounds, including the nearly dead 10mm. The testers found the 180/950 round did everything they wanted it to do. The fact that the full power 10 was also available was considered a bonus, much in the way .38 Specials were standard, but .357 Magnum rounds were available as needed for specific requirements.

Full power 10mm was never issued, so the idea that agents couldn't handle the recoil is internet hooey. The 1076 was a very well liked pistol and very few agents who had one wanted to give it up. As recently as three years ago I was qualifying an agent who hung onto his despite repeated efforts to recall it to the gun vault. They finally threatened to dock his availability pay and he returned it.

The testers looked at our shootings and decided they wanted a deeper penetrating 9mm, hence the 147 grain - first the HS, now a Gold Dot. Since we don't issue ammo to other departments, nobody out there was required to follow suit. The 147s have performed as expected, though not that many agents carry 9mms anymore. I know a guy who has killed two bad guys with two rounds of 147 grain 9mm Hydra-Shok. He has no complaints.

The 10mm 180/950 led directly to the development of the .40 S&W, which is the current bureau issue in a 165 grain Gold Dot.

The 10mm is still in service with the FBI, in a 190 grain loading. We use it in these:

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Old 10-28-2007, 12:32 PM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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Quote:

The 10mm is still in service with the FBI, in a 190 grain loading. We use it in these:

NOW THATS A GUN!

Locally, we had an agent who had one of these babys and he was going to let me shoot it. he was later transferred out of town and now in DC.

I never got to play with one.

The head agent here loved his 1076 and fought to keep his. I think he was one of the last ones to turn his in.

Sig220
is the model 13 grandfathered in too?
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Old 10-28-2007, 12:35 PM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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Quote:
Sig220
is the model 13 grandfathered in too?
Nope, no revolvers anymore. The Model 13s and Model 10s were either chopped up, turned into Simunitions guns (and painted orange), or parted out. I once saw some desk sets that were made to give to visiting dignitaries at Quantico. They had the vertical foregrip from a Thompson mounted on a base, with the cylinder of a Model 13 attached as a pencil holder.
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Old 10-28-2007, 02:33 PM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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[quote]Originally posted by sigp220.45:
Quote:
I once saw some desk sets that were made to give to visiting dignitaries at Quantico. They had the vertical foregrip from a Thompson mounted on a base, with the clyinder of a Model 13 attached as a pencil holder.
that should be a federal violation
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Old 10-28-2007, 09:39 PM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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you may be able to find some info from this site http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html
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Old 10-30-2007, 08:52 AM
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Sigp220.45-------Consider this a personal invitation....If you're ever in Kentucky, you're welcome to look me up and we'll go to the range. By the way....don't forget to bring that MP-5/10!!!!!!
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Old 10-31-2007, 05:53 AM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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Sigp220.45

Thank you for your response about the 1076. I may be the person you are referring as one people the Gun Vault coerced into turning in their 1076 for a Glock. LOL

As you know the FBI's ultimate decision to return all its 1076s to S&W under warranty had everything to do with turf battles, egos and politics and very little to do with the pistol's or ammunition's performance. Further, over the two to three year period that the FBI and S&W haggled over the 1076 the .40 S&W had been developed. The FBI saw a way to extricate itself from the S&W entanglement and go with the .40 which had similar ballistics. Ironically, it so happened that the FBI selected Glock to provide the .40s. It also happened that Glock (and firearms manufacturers) had sued the FBI when the original contract had been awarded to S&W.

The FBI contract with S&W was never actually voided, rescinded or canceled, both sides simply "agreed to disagree" and left it at that. That is the only reason the FBI 1076 pistols made it to the commercial market rather than be destroyed as required by law. They were "warranty returns," not trade-ins (which the Feds are prohibited from doing.) It would be very difficult to find a street Agent in the FBI that was issued a 1076 that did not like it. most did not want to give them up. And some took extreme measures to hold onto theirs. Many Agents bought multiple 1076s from S&W as used guns when the FBI returned them to S&W.

Contrary to old myths and legends concerning the demise of the 1076 in the FBI it had little to do with too powerful ammunition, they couldn't handle the recoil (down-loaded FBI 10 mm round or "FBI Lite" was equal to or less than a .357), it was too heavy (only 6 oz more than Model 13 it replaced), too hard to conceal (easier to conceal, it was not as wide), too large for small frame male and female Agents (remedied with addition of resized grips), it suffered from metal failure, cracks in the frame, etc. (one, possibly two documented cases), jams and stovepipes (yes, if you limp-wrist or pull your arm/shoulder back when you shoot - like new shooters do - the pistols jam and stovepipe - Duh - it's a pistol).

I could go on but my point is that the S&W 3rd generation 10 mm pistols are not the dismal failures that history has made them them out to be. Had not the FBI rejected the 1076 the S&W 10 mm pistols might well have developed into an all around well thought of handgun. What strikes me is how little it takes to derail a new firearm or cartridge. Whether true or untrue, fact or innuendo, documented or rumors, information reaching the shooting population does in fact have a huge effect on what is available to us.

I respect everyone's opinion on the forum and I wanted to add mine to this discussion. I think the 1076 is a fine pistol that has been maligned based more on inaccurate information from the outset in the early 90's. And I would like to see the entire truth, whatever it may be, about the 1076 come to light.

Regards to everyone.

D
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Old 10-31-2007, 06:18 AM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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I agree (obviously.) The 10mm is more thn the .40 S&W can, or ever, will be. this is NOT to denigrate the .40 S&W, It is simply more versatile. Period, end of sentence. The .45 is a fine round, but the 10mm has the ability to accomplish more. In it's full-power permutation, it is THE perfect submachinegun round. There is no reason to "load it down." If you wish lesser penetration, use a lighter projectile. You'll obtain a greater permanent crush cavity and exanguination. (Read: the subject will sustain more permanent tissue damage and will "bleed out" far more quickly.)

Enough said.

Scott
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Old 10-31-2007, 06:44 AM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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The Firearms Training Unit at Quantico did not make the decision to go with the 10 mm over the .45. Actually, the Director did. The communication sent to him pointed out the merits of both the 10 mm and the .45. It was close to a dead heat. The 10 mm did have a slight edge over the .45 in some respects. One of which was that the 10 mm was a new cartridge that had not been developed to nearly its full potential while the .45 had been around for quite some time and had probably reached the peak of its evolution as a law enforcement cartridge. Regardless of which round the Director selected I think that FTU would have been satisfied with the result. What it did NOT expect, at least the extent, e.g., was the backlash from other firearms manufacturers, certain FBI personnel, and the media. The fact that S&W may have low-bid the contract and did have issues with a few of the pistols it first delivered to the FBI only complicated the situation and enhanced the position of the dissenters. The resulting agonizing long drawn out negotiations served neither the FBI nor S&W well. In the end they both lost.
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Old 10-31-2007, 07:10 AM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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Slider - thanks for the invite. I'm on the other side of the country but if I'm ever in Kentucky again my MP and I will look you up. I was in Lexington many years ago and you are certainly blessed to live in such a beautiful area.

DMC - I was referring to another agent, but your point is well taken. 1076s had to be hunted down and pried out of fingers in all corners of the Bureau.

The bitter divorce of the FBI from Smith and Wesson is a fascinating and painful subject. I remember the POW list when I came on in '91 was like a Smith and Wesson catalog - every steel frame .38 or .357 with a four inch barrel or less, as well as all the 9mm and .45 autos made at the time were approved. You could be in a bull pen with guys carrying Model 13s, the ever present 2 1/2 inch Model 66, an occasional Model 15, ankles weighted down with Model 36s ("five shots" in Bu-speak), 4516s, 6906s, and the crusty old guy in the corner with a blue worn 3 1/2 inch Model 27. Smiths were so dominant that the few guys with grandfathered Pythons and Dick Specials were looked at with awe.

Now - no Smiths anywhere. None on the approved list, and none of the older ones are grandfathered in.

And the issue pistol is, of all things, a Glock. The one gun the FTU swore for years would never be authorized.

What a topsy turvy world!
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Old 10-31-2007, 08:57 AM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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Sig,

And here I thought I was the one they threatened to take away AUO. They got me in 10/98 when I was dumb enough to qualify with it at an HQ shoot. DOH! And then they melted it down!

There's a good reason the Agents all had S&Ws. with a few exceptions that was all they were authorized to carry (you forgot the best one though, the Model 19 4"). In the mid-80s the Bureau called in ALL Bureau owned and issued Colts. And I mean ALL. I was issued a Det. Spec. as well as my Model 13 and off it went back to the Gun Vault along with every other Colt in the entire field. The reason? The Gun Vault convinced some executive that it was too costly to maintain a parts inventory for both firearms, i.e., Colts AND S&Ws, and it was too costly to maintain gunsmiths trained to repair both types of firearms. I'm not kidding one little bit. And to make matters worse, since the FBI couldn't find another law enforcement agency that wanted the Colts they were obliged to cut them up (this was before the smelter). There were literally 1000s of Colts that would be considered rare and collectible today and their remains were buried on Quantico's artillery range. At the same time all Colts were removed from the POW list. No parts, no gunsmiths, no Colts - no problem.

So, the reason you saw only S&Ws in 1991 was that other than a few Sigs for SWAT agents that is all we could carry. A similar tragedy happened when the FBI transitioned from the Model 13 to pistols. It had been approved at THE highest level for Agent to purchase their Model 13 should they chose to. Then the Gun Vault got involved and complained that it would be too much trouble and take too much of their time. Result: buy back program nixed. Tragedy: 10,000 Model 13s destroyed.

The crusty old guys you saw carrying the Colts - were just that - crusty old guys that probably didn't pay much attention to what any suit told them to do. They wanted to carry their POW Colt and they did. But they weren't Bureau Colts unless someone pulled a fast one. And we all know that never could happen. LOL

Regards,

D
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Old 10-31-2007, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by sigp220.45:
DMC - I was referring to another agent, but your point is well taken. 1076s had to be hunted down and pried out of fingers in all corners of the Bureau.
They certainly had to pry mine away from me. My SSRA finally threatened to shoot me with a tranquilizer dart and remove it from the holster while I was out cold. Ironically, I still had a Model 13 signed out for several months after that. Then they got it too! I was quite happy when I was carrying the 1076 on-duty and my off-duty was a S&W 3913. I believe the 4506 was still on the POW list at that time (I know the P220 was), but I was quite content with my 1076/3913 combination.
Gonzo
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Old 10-31-2007, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dmc8163:
The reason? The Gun Vault convinced some executive that it was too costly to maintain a parts inventory for both firearms, i.e., Colts AND S&Ws, and it was too costly to maintain gunsmiths trained to repair both types of firearms. I'm not kidding one little bit.
This was the same reasoning the Gun Vault used to shrink down the POW list to next-to-nothing. And the reasoning they cited for wanting to go to "nothing but Glocks".
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Old 10-31-2007, 12:01 PM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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Quote:
Now - no Smiths anywhere. None on the approved list, and none of the older ones are grandfathered in.

And the issue pistol is, of all things, a Glock. The one gun the FTU swore for years would never be authorized.

What a topsy turvy world!

That's nice. Sounds like yet another case of Americans not thinking like Americans.
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Old 10-31-2007, 12:18 PM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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Didn't the original Glock contract with the FBI expire?
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Old 10-31-2007, 04:33 PM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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Yeah, I think we're buying off the DEA contract right now.
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Old 10-31-2007, 05:13 PM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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I have never read a more imformative thread.
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  #26  
Old 11-01-2007, 02:32 PM
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Does anybody know the history or reasons behind the downloaded ammo? The origional Norma load appeared to perform pretty well. Why go with a lighter velocity loading?
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Old 11-01-2007, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jacobscw:
Does anybody know the history or reasons behind the downloaded ammo? The origional Norma load appeared to perform pretty well. Why go with a lighter velocity loading?
The blast and recoil were a bit much for some of the smaller and lighter personnel. When they finally came up with the "FBI Load" of a 180gr bullet at 900+fps, some genius figured out that performance level could be reached in a smaller cartridge AND a smaller grip for smaller shooters.

Thus was born the 40 S&W cartridge....
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Old 11-01-2007, 05:24 PM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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Read sigp220.45's post on the first page. He explained it. Has nothing at all to do with "smaller and lighter personnel."
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Old 11-01-2007, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ispcapt:
Read sigp220.45's post on the first page. He explained it. Has nothing at all to do with "smaller and lighter personnel."
Sorry, I missed that part of his post. I always assumed that the origional Norma load was issued initially and later the Federal load.

Having shot a substantial amount of the Norma JHP's thru my 1066, I never really understood why anyone would make the claim that is was too difficult to control or qualify with. I really never felt much difference between them and the 175 STHP.
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Old 11-02-2007, 02:25 AM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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Originally posted by SLIDER-in-KY:
Sigp220.45-------Consider this a personal invitation....If you're ever in Kentucky, you're welcome to look me up and we'll go to the range. By the way....don't forget to bring that MP-5/10!!!!!!
You better let me know cuz I wanna come tooo.
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  #31  
Old 12-16-2007, 09:12 PM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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Quote:
This was the same reasoning the Gun Vault used to shrink down the POW list to next-to-nothing. And the reasoning they cited for wanting to go to "nothing but Glocks".
Gonzo
And , of course, now they have suspended any new POW's for the time being.

I emailed the genius that made that decision and told him that to end a program that has worked so well for so long with three weeks notice was unconscionable. It didn't do any good, but I felt better afterward
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Old 12-17-2007, 05:14 PM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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They swear it is just a power play to force the hiring of more gunsmiths at the vault, but I wouldn't be surprised if the POW program never came back.

The vault got pounded with last minute POW orders - a guy I work with got an order in for a Glock 21 just under the wire, and he's still waiting.
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Old 12-19-2007, 06:56 AM
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A very informative thread indeed. I have been a long time fan of the 10mm, and when the FBI adopted it and I got a 1006, I thought it was going to take off like hotcakes. But alas it died about as fast as it took off. Tis a shame, it is the .357 magnum of the pistol side of the coin, but no one seems to want to carry a magnum anymore.
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Old 12-20-2007, 09:04 AM
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At one time, the FBI asked Sig to make them an all stainless steel P220 in .45ACP, and Sig wouldn't do then. They made them in later years.


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Old 12-20-2007, 06:01 PM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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The Sig P220 in .45 was the issued pistol of the agents on the Attorney General's protection detail. I don't know if it is anymore.
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Old 12-20-2007, 07:12 PM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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I'll bet the armored vest industry breathed a sigh of relief when the ten went off the radar!!!!! I'll also bet that a ten will come right through my front or side armored windows!!!! Now,,,, I hope the bad guys don't get their hands on that AK47 pistol I see advertised in some gun mags!!!! All of us will be in DEEP S--- over that one!!!!


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Old 02-15-2008, 07:36 PM
ARM hawaii ARM hawaii is offline
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The best thing that came out of the 10mm program were the testing protocols that are now being used. Unless you are the one who as to shoot all the rounds until the blood can not flow from your hands anymore.

The hope was that the lower velocity round was going to answer the mail for the handgun need and that a high velocity (like the original Norma load) would be developed for the MP5/10. This never happened. I had several 1076s and was very pleased. I never had a malfuncion of any kind except during the testing when we were attempting to figure out why they were malfuncioning. I a certain that there were various problems. The miles of high speed film that was shot proves it. However, it was mind numbing to track down each malady and remidy it.. S&W bent over backwards to try and figure it out too. I still think the three biggest problems were agents that did not want the "boat anchor" and invented problems, the fact that you had to put some effort into shooting it (not a gun for limp wrists), and three that very straight walls of the case - it just does not lend itself to feeding like a 9mm Para.

Lots of modifications and tricks were used to get them reliable. The final deathblow was the inability for agents in the field to clean out the firing pin hole. As such, grime and powder would build up and prevent the pin from making contact with the primer. Ironic now that agents can strip the pin from their 1911s.

It was an ok gun for a double action (unforgiving- those that could shoot- liked them- those that could not hated them), and an even better round. It all started for the BU with a personally owned Delta Elite 10mm that was thrown into the testing for fun. Ironic since the best pistols the BU has ever issued are the colt .38 Supers and Springfield .45s.
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  #38  
Old 02-15-2008, 08:29 PM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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ARM hawaii,

Your profile contains no contact information. Please see my profile and email me off the forum.

Thanks, D
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  #39  
Old 02-16-2008, 07:38 AM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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I had occasion to visit the FBI building a number of years ago as part of a class trip to DC for my son and one of the things they did was an agent did a firing demonstration of the HK submachine gun and the SiG pistol. He was none too happy when I asked the question in front of the group as to why America's most venerable law enforcement agency was using guns manufactured by foreign entities...to his credit however he gave an honest answer..."We buy based on the lowest bid". And we lament the loss of domestic manufacturing, is it any wonder why?

As to this thread, fascinating reading. I love my 1076, and find it a joy to shoot. The insight provided by several posters as to the thinking inside the Bureau is a rare glimpse of how things work, and I thank you for sharing.

As a postscript, I remember reading about the 10mm MP's in one of Clancy's books, now there is a gun I would like to learn more about. Would it be possible to post the picture again, or provide some more details?
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Old 02-16-2008, 08:21 AM
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The first time I ever saw a 1076 was the first day I met John Hall. I had the great pleasure and honor of getting to know him. And, if you knew John, you also knew there were two things that were ever present on his belt: a 1076 and the silver eagle buckle.


Quote:
Originally posted by ARM hawaii:
It was an ok gun for a double action (unforgiving- those that could shoot- liked them- those that could not hated them), and an even better round. It all started for the BU with a personally owned Delta Elite 10mm that was thrown into the testing for fun. Ironic since the best pistols the BU has ever issued are the colt .38 Supers and Springfield .45s.
I truly loved my 1076 and only gave it back under great duress. The Gun Vault started resorting to trickery and outright threats to get them back. Tricky little buggers! As for the Springfield...I have not heard a lot of positive reports from the current folks. In fact, most of what I have heard has been negative. Most I know would gladly trade them for their old P220 or a 4506. I'm sure the opinions vary, though.
Gonzo
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Old 02-16-2008, 01:32 PM
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SA Hall was with out question the greatest legal instructor the Bureau ever had. Unfortunately, that was not the job he should have had. As the Unit Chief of FTU he was an even better performer. It was the debacle over the 1076 that undid his rein and brought undesired turns to several other careers.

As for the Springfields, they are outstanding performers for those who shoot. They require a higher level of awareness than the Glocks, Sigs, or the 1076. One must be diligent about cleaning. Yet, for those that do - the accuracy benefit makes up for it all. It is not for everyone or every Agent. It is issued as a special purpose pistol for individuals who receive special training.

I am not a fan of the TupperPistol which is the current issue, but it is hard to deny its success and reliability as a mass-issue tool. It is however, the only weapon ever issued that lacks any redeeming aesthetic quality.

I think the BU should issue 8 shot Model 27s with 3.5" barrels as its general issue handgun.
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  #42  
Old 02-16-2008, 03:03 PM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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With the recent massive re-organization of what bureau is in which department is the FBI still protecting the AG? I seem to recall the Bureau went to Homeland Security... or did the Bureau stay in Justice?

V/r

Chuck

Quote:
Originally posted by sigp220.45:
The Sig P220 in .45 was the issued pistol of the agents on the Attorney General's protection detail. I don't know if it is anymore.
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  #43  
Old 02-16-2008, 03:30 PM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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Well, I don't have the definitive answer for the original question ...

But I have some 'maybe-interesting' info which definitely falls within the realm of second-hand rumor. Maybe someone else participating in this thread can shed some further light on it ... and I'd appreciate hearing whether any of this stuff was in any way accurate ...

So ...

Listening to someone connected to the agency, who claimed some sort of knowledge of what was happening when the decision to adopt the 10mm cartridge was made ...

Supposedly somewhere within the FTU, some sort of internal review/report had just recently (prior to the Miami-Dade incident) been produced which was a review of handgun calibers suitable for use in the foreseeable future, and it had been determined that the .45 ACP was not going to be among the future of viable choices. Something to that effect.

Then, since nobody enjoys being wrong, obviously the .45 ACP couldn't suddenly be selected when it had just been deemed unsuitable, right?

New people at the helm later ... and what was old is now new again. Dunno. Not at all. Anybody else who has closer knowledge other than rumor have any thoughts on this?

Like I said, I have no idea is remotely connected to the actual events, but the fellow seemed rather bemused and disappointed with how things had happened when it came to the selection of a 'better' cartridge than the W-W 9mm 115gr STHP used at the time ... even though it wasn't the only caliber/ammunition used in the incident.

Maybe ... and I wouldn't be surprised ... it was merely another of those rumor-control stories which can take on a life of their own. More than likely the case.

Naturally, the 9mm continued to be used afterward, although in the heavier 147gr OSM load, as well as other heavier bullet weight 9mm loads over the years. The Federal 190gr JHP 'Fed-Lite' did eventually give way to the 180gr .40 S&W ... and most of the rest, it seems, is history.

I dislike rumor, though. Maybe sometimes entertaining if it's a harmless sort of info sharing, while sitting around enjoying a cigar ... since sometimes there is some small particle of fact hidden away within the folds of rumor ...
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Old 02-16-2008, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by cxm:
With the recent massive re-organization of what bureau is in which department is the FBI still protecting the AG? I seem to recall the Bureau went to Homeland Security... or did the Bureau stay in Justice?

V/r

Chuck

Quote:
Originally posted by sigp220.45:
The Sig P220 in .45 was the issued pistol of the agents on the Attorney General's protection detail. I don't know if it is anymore.
No, the FBI is still the primary investigative arm of the Department of Justice. And the Bureau is still tasked with providing protection for the Attorney General of the United States. That being said, I did not know there was ever a particular pistol issued to that detail. I always assumed (shame on me) they carried whatever Bu issued or approved pistol they normally carried. Go figure.
Gonzo
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Old 02-16-2008, 04:53 PM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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The 10mm is a superior pistol in combat, period. It can, and does, outperform the .45 ACP in every aspect, every time. Get over it. The 10mm is in the middle of a revival. Colt's Delta Elite is coming back with a bull barrel, and Wilson Combat is building both their CQB and "Hunter" models in the 10mm Auto Pistol Cartridge.

Oh, its 'dead' all right. (If you call being produced by a minimum of 7 handgun manufacturers, dead.)

Scott
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  #46  
Old 02-16-2008, 05:29 PM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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Fastbolt,
This forum contains a wealth of accurate information concerning the Model 1076. Briefly, the 10 mm came out only slightly ahead of the .45 in FTUs ammunition protocol testing, very slightly. But, in his original mandate the Director clearly instructed the FTU to recommend to him the BEST performing ammunition. Not the "almost" best. Accordingly the first recommendation to the Director was that the results of the ammunition testing protocol slightly favored the 10 mm. The second point made in the recommendation to the Director was that the .45 had been around for roughly 100 years and had reached the zenith of its development as a law enforcement cartridge. The 10 mm on the other hand was relatively new and its potential for significant positive development as a law enforcement cartridge. The decision between the 10 mm and the .45 was so close that FTU would have been quite willing to live with whatever ammunition the Director selected. But note, THE DIRECTOR selected the 10 mm. Not FTU or anyone in between. And the fact is that even had the Director selected .45 ammunition there was NO pistol on the market that met the Bureau's requirements. No single pistol had all the features that FTU demanded. A new pistol would have to be designed regardless of what caliber was selected.

ARM Hawaii,
Well said. John Hall set the standard for class act and a gentleman. A man of honor who did the right thing for the Bureau on each and every occasion with little or no regard for the consequences to himself. Never impatient, never impolite, never condescending and always there to devote his time and attention to your needs. We should all look to him for inspiration. I certainly did.
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Old 02-16-2008, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dmc8163:
Well said. John Hall set the standard for class act and a gentleman. A man of honor who did the right thing for the Bureau on each and every occasion with little or no regard for the consequences to himself. Never impatient, never impolite, never condescending and always there to devote his time and attention to your needs. We should all look to him for inspiration. I certainly did.
Amen! You could call him anytime for a straight answer and he never forgot a trainee. Heck of a musician, too. I tapped many a toe listening to him and the NA's in Crossroads.
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Old 02-16-2008, 05:56 PM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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Quote:
The 10mm is a superior pistol in combat, period.
Opinion & conclusion. Reasoning upon which it's based?
Quote:
It can, and does, outperform the .45 ACP in every aspect, every time.
Well, if that were the case, and if whatever factors and circumstances were involved in making that determination were the primary reason to select a service cartridge ... then you'd think we'd be seeing more of it in LE & military, usage, wouldn't you?

There's no reason for 10mm enthusiasts to find it unpleasant or insulting that seemingly a number of folks who shoot semiauto pistols seem to find the felt recoil, muzzle blast and overall controllability of a 'full-power' 10mm load to be a bit on the undesired end of things.

I'll grant that the 10mm is seemingly enjoying some apparent renewed interest among the firearms makers, and not just in a revolver platforms which was primarily intended for hunting enthusiasts. It's the major ammunition makers who need to come back into the fold and offer some upgraded defensive ammunition for the new (and old) platforms. I wouldn't be surprised to find some of the smaller ammunition makers enjoying this resurgence.

I've qualified a handful of CCW folks who carried 10mm pistols, including G20's, a couple of Colt models and S&W 1006 pistols. Virtually without exception these folks all exhibited somewhat slower recoil recovery and recoil management when observed alongside everyone else at the same time, shooting all manner of other cartridges. If that reflects the 'average' lawful CCW person, then wouldn't it be prudent to consider that maybe some folks might ... just might ... be better served with a cartridge which allowed them something of an advantage in these potentially critical issues.

When you consider that CCW folks have generally gone to the trouble to buy their own firearms, equipment and ammunition ... compared to most LE who have it issued to them ... then I'd offer that it might be a valid concern to adopt a defensive service caliber, or a selection of calibers, which might prove better suited to the wide range of folks who enter LE work.

Not everyone wants a 'heavy caliber' sidearm, nor is everyone likely to be able to be qualified with one.

While felt recoil may not be a problem when it comes to target shooting or performing a controlled pair or 'triple' shot string on a static range ... or during a pleasant afternoon at the local outdoor shooting venue ... sometimes controllability, recovery and even safe handling issues may arise when someone is forced to complete a dynamic, timed course of fire which can involve conditions including, movement, shooting while moving, shooting weak-handed, engaging multiple targets in reduced light conditions which require judgment for Shoot/No-Shoot decisions, etc., etc..

How many folks do you know who find shooting 10mm pistols to offer them an advantage when competing in IDPA or other competitive venues? If the felt recoil and controllability wasn't an issue, what else would mitigate against it being used with some frequency in events where speed, controllability & accuracy were useful, even if only in winning against time & paper?

Hey, I have nothing against the caliber. I may pick up one of the new Colts at some point. I've always thought that if Colt improved their platform compared to their previous offering, or S&W or Ruger would introduce a robust defensive-type pistol model chambered in the 10mm, that I'd want to get one.

It wouldn't necessarily replace my many other defensive weapons, though. I just happen to think the 10mm was an interesting cartridge to have been developed in American handgun history.

I also liked the .41 Magnum, for that matter.

That didn't remain considered a viable LE/defensive cartridge for very many years,however, either. Still a good cartridge, though.
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Old 02-16-2008, 06:05 PM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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Thank you dmc8163. I appreciate your reply.

Quote:
The second point made in the recommendation to the Director was that the .45 had been around for roughly 100 years and had reached the zenith of its development as a law enforcement cartridge. The 10 mm on the other hand was relatively new and its potential for significant positive development as a law enforcement cartridge.
I can also see how this part, in particular, could end up being misunderstood, taken out of context and eventually distorted beyond recognition by our typical rumor control phenomena. Seen it happen too many times trying to track down the source of something.

Quote:
The decision between the 10mm and the .45 was so close that FTU would have been quite willing to live with whatever ammunition the Director selected.
Ditto, having BTDT. You give a perfectly reasonable answer to a question from upstairs, especially expressing how either of a couple of answers would be perfectly acceptable and serve the needs of everyone. The admin makes a good decision, and then suddenly you start hearing someone complaining about the decision, and how it was your decision?!? Sigh ... Happened to me recently.

I really won't miss some of the things from this job when I retire.

Thanks again.

Best regards.
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  #50  
Old 02-17-2008, 07:27 AM
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F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ? F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?  
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Interestingly, as this thread makes it topical, there is an Auto Ordnance 10mm conversion kit for the 1911 for sale on another forum. Isn't the 10mm cartridge by its nature too powerful for the standard government model frame? Isn't the Delta Elite a bit beefier? Just curious, no dog in the hunt on this one...
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