I met a guy who says he has a S&W auto that was issued by the CIA. Anyone know anything about what guns the CIA was using?

I met a guy who says he has a S&W auto that was issued by the CIA. Anyone know anything about what guns the CIA was using?

I know that with two exceptions who did not talk about it until I got to know them very well and who did not tell me about it themselves initially, every individual I've ever met who claimed to have been a guntoter for the CIA was completely full of hooey.

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Now go make God proud...

You might be right. I do know he has spent a lot of time traveling outside the US in South America, Nepal, and SEA. He did own a travel agency and could talk a snake into buying two pairs of shoes. He could have been involved with an agency but I am trying to get some info to verify parts of his story.

Hey, Actually I recall reading the CIA used the S&W 39 and 59 in vietnam. Some had a threaded barrel for silencers.

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M.J.Hanna

I agree, and then there is not a lot of discussion about it.

I was under the impression that some CIA were issued the ASP S&W 39, as designed by Seventrees, aka Paris Theodore. Here's a brief wiki article about the pistol - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASP_(handgun)

I'm not at liberty to tell you what I was issued, if I was issued anything at all. For that matter-I can't tell you if I am even eligible to get issued anything. In fact, I may not even be here.

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Forum consigliere

FWIW:

I can't speak to anything that occurred while I might have been in the CIA as it's still classified.

I do happen to have one photo of the S&W pistol that MIGHT have been issued to both myself and my partner, or not..

Please don't ask for any specifics, I'm pushing the envelope as it is by posting this photo.

Booyabase.. (not my real name)

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"Laus Deo"

A excellent answer, In the frame of Senator "I have no personal recollection of that event".

Paris Theodore his name keeps popping up. A innovator, a designer and probably one of the world's great BS artist and self promoters. However the Asp did influence S&W (3913) and I had seen one of the Seventrees holsters in NY back in the 70s I think the first impression was. Not many stitches in the holster. I shot an ASP was not impressed by the trigger pull but did like the see through grips and I thought the guttersnipe sight was interesting. It took forever to get (A judge had bought it). Now must be a collectors piece, and after somebody posted a picture of a Seventrees holster I found out that Paris Theodore had passed away. He did have innovative ideas.

Here is a photo of my ASP, and I know a bit about it's past. The original owner did work for aGovernment Agnecy and casrried this as a duty weapon, but I have no reason to believe it was CIA.

I have never been in the CIA, however the frontline employee is called an Intelligence Officer. In most applications, his job is to cultivate intelligence sources. I can't imagine one carrying any weapon except in extreme circumstances. They are expected to comport themselves as gentlemen and diplomats.

There are the Paramilitary folks who carry whatever is locally available. If you were doing somthing deniable, you would likely be carrying gear made in any country but the USA.

Paramilitary folks in SE Asia zipped around sporting Swedish Ks submachine guns and FN HPs.

PMs in Afganistan are carrying Glocks and AKs.

There are also uniformed CIA security guards at CIA facilities in the US. If they are carrying Berettas(for example) you could expect to find a gun show exhibitor selling "genuine CIA Berettas"(from CDNN, of course).

From my too many years as a bartender, I don't believe any war stories. I have heard too many BS stories from wannabe heroes.

When I was in engineering school, somebody suggested I apply to the CIA for a job. Is that close enough?

I didn't.

Between Porter Goss and Leon Panetta, I wonder who is going to be left at the Company. Not to mention having a director of National Intelligence or whatever the heck they call him doing the job the CIA was supposed to do in the first place.

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Regulate Banks, not guns

I've read about something that got nicknamed the "hush puppy" that might have been in the CIA category. Supposedly it was a Smith 9mm tuned to work with a silencer and subsonic ammo (long before the current 147 gr loads became popular). The couple references I've seen to it claimed it got its name because it was intended to put down guard dogs before they could alert or do damage.

Also, again from readings, I don't think that the ASP was any kind of CIA weapon. What I've read suggests that it was created as a Secret Service weapon for protection details in embassies and the like where they had to blend in by dressing formally (i.e. tuxes and similar wear).

Exactly right. My dad's best friend started in the OSS, predecessor to the CIA. He couldn't care less about firearms. He had a great career. Spent a lot of time entertaining and going to parties --- always seemed to get great assignments ---- Paris, London, Washington.

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BBFTx

I was once used for a reference for a friend who had applied for employment with the CIA about 25 years ago. Someone called and I answered a few questions. I guess they hired him. I haven't heard from him since.

Actually the hushpuppy was used by the CIA assassin "double 'ought buck"

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Everything I ever read about the "hush puppy" was that is was used by US Navy Seals in Viet Nam. It was a suppressed Model 39 firing special sub-sonic rounds. It's stated purpose was to eliminate guard/sentry dogs. It wouldn't surprise me if actual CIA field agents had one in their kit or arms room.

Regards,

Dave

From I have heard, CIA contracted out the gun use anyway, so they would not get their hands dirty.

Some time ago, the CIA became responsible for security at Tyson's Corner Mall. At that time, the world's largest and only 10 miles from their headquarters at Langley.

At the last minute the budget got cut and they had to hire outside security instead of trained commissioned intelligence officers. After watching the new security personnel in action training on the agency 39-2's, it was decided to convert each gun to single shot to reduce liability in the hands of poorly trained security personnel. The guards had to carry the 39-2 unloaded in a flap holster. They were allowed to carry one round in each breast pocket. They were shaken down before and after each shift to insure that they only took two bullets out at the start of the shift, and to make sure that all rounds were accounted for at the end of the shift.

So, if you find a 39-2 with no serial number(sterile and non-attributable, you know) and converted to single shot only, you may have an original CIA mall ninja gun. They are extremely rare. The only known surviving example is in the CIA museum at Langley headquarters and displayed completely obscured and covered by a black velvet cloth(Top secret code word access only, you know)

Dang, you must be a lawyer!!!

I was in Nam 70-72 and did not work for the CIA, but I did have an assignment supporting the "Embassy" at one time. OK? Just leave it at that.

The white collar employees of the mission and embassy got their choice of either a S&W model 36 or a Hi-Power as a basic weapon. These were not spooks and the weapons were strictly a personal protection thing - most didn't bother carrying them very often. Most of the people I knew also had a collection of other weapons - AK's, 16's, carbines, 45's, model 10's - you name it. Some issued, some personal weapons. Open carry or concealed didn't make much difference - things were pretty loose.

The Mung guards on the various offices and houses were armed with full auto carbines (M2's?).

Based on the efficiency of the (non-military) logistics system I saw in action, I'd say that if there was an operational need for an odd weapon it wouldn't have been difficult to obtain in a day or so.

Several people I knew had Uzi's. The story was that when the SS came to town they weren't allowed to bring anything but handguns - don't ask me why, because I don't know - so the Uzi's were kept by the embassy and were available if the SS wasn't in town. No body seemed to care much for the Uzi's as weapons, but they were good for phych. The Swedish K was prefered.

That's all I know. I didn't work for the CIA and don't *know* anyone who did - but some of the people I did know had kind of vague jobs and lets say they kept odd hours. <G> The CIA probably carried as many different weapons as there are drunks in bars. These were the weapons I saw carried by civilians who worked at the embassy and various support locations.

+1 on the preceding post, he knows what he is saying. FWIW, the Agency does not "issue" firearms.

My dad was in the OSS as well. His issued equipment was a Speed Graphic.

100% correct. Also used people who could not be connected to Gov't. or military. Allowed total deniability. Handler/control was the assets only contact. Probably same today. Don't fix what isn't broke.

P.S. WW II era P-38's were also used in 'Nam, Laos, and Cambodia.

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Shoot the CPU, not the monitor

I thought all embassy employees were actually CIA? That's what Tom Clancy lead me to believe.

There are no secret organizations that issue a specific weapon. If I were the head of a covert group I would just go to pawn shops and randomly buy whatever was in the case (using falsified credentials of course). I may have them thoroughly inspected and tested in house, but I would go random and untraceable.

CIA paramilitary folks have been carrying Glocks for several years. They are not spooks, but out in the field with tribesmen gathering intel and assisting friendly tribesmen.

In VN, station personnel were carrying FN HPs and Swedish Ks for personal protection when out side the wire.

The CIA does a lot of different things. Most are sitting at desks looking at computer screens most of the day. The 'spook' that some conjure up from old black and white movies is armed with whatever is expedient, if at all.

I was too young for Nam but do remember seeing Smith 39s with suppressors in SEAL Teams 2 arms room in the late 80s (along with some Smith 66 4"). Embassy personnel are usually Dept of State and they carry SIG 228s, not counting the US Marine Detachment.

Only issued CIA handgun that I know of is the one that the Soviets displayed when Francis Gary Powers was shot down in his U2 over USSR on 1 May 60. If memory is correct he had a High Standard .22 and inside a modified silver dollar a lethal, shellfish-derived saxitoxin-tipped needle. I did have two IO work in my shop in Iraq and shot with them on my range (range NCOIC) but they weren't carrying Smiths but a European 9mm, I'll leave it at that.
CD

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De Oppresso Liber

That's why they are referred to as GHOSTS or SPOOK!!

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NRA Life Member and Instructor

Actually yes! It was the S&W M39 modified by inventor Paris Theodore and subsequently sold to the public under the name of ASP. I know because I ordered and owned one in the early 80's, but no, I was not an agent. I also purchased his clever storage box, designed as a book and entitled 'Unseen in the Best Places'. You can search ‘paris theodore’ or 'ASP' for more. His contributions were not well circulated until after his death. He was a true visionary, and faithfully served the US Government in the shadows of history. Heck, even the touching tribute on his website is clever. Click, hold and drag the magnifying glass.

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Dan Ortego ~

I worked for the NSA back in the seventies for 18 months after I got out of the Navy. They actually had some field officers back then. When operating in another country, we could pick up a handgun at the embassy if we wanted to do so. Most of the time I didn't bother, but if I did, I would get a Browning HP, because that's what I carried in the service.

When I was in RVN, I was once at a heliport awaiting a ride from somewhere to somewhere else I don't remember. Also there were a bunch of captured VC, hands tied, squatting on the ground. In charge of them was an American, in civvies, carrying a clipboard. He was wearing a leather holster holding an S&W 39. It was the only one I've seen in RV.

All the joking aside, just out of curiosity, what does the group think a weapon that can be verified to have been personally owned and used by a SEAL who served three years in RVN and then went on to a 20 year career with the CIA be worth?

It happens to be a Colt Lightweight Commander with a very old set of MMC sights and almost no finish left, plus scrapes, gouges, etc. in the metal from when it hit God-knows-what (or who). I verified the serial number indicating the Colt was made and shipped right before this gentleman shipped out for Vietnam in the mid-60s. The MMC sights appear to date from later, possibly the 70s.

And, for those doubting thomases out there, I saw two of the man's CIA IDs (one signed by George Bush from when he was Director of the CIA - long before he was President), and bought a BUNCH of his other personal collection weapons from his brother. Got the whole backstory on his brother, including what SEAL team, dates of service, and dates of service in the CIA. The other weapons were things of personal interest, as (like many of us) he was a gun appreciator, but the Colt he carried on or near his person (and kept as his loaded defense gun after he retired) throughout his 26+ year career. I know it's "been places."

I'm working on collecting the CIA ID cards as well, but for now the brother considers them family heirlooms, and I can't blame him one bit...

So, any idea on value of a genuine CIA-operative-owned-and-used weapon? Feel free to comment on value with and without the two CIA ID cards as well.

I've known two people (both of them for over thirty years now) who worked for the CIA during Viet Nam and neither one was "issued" any firearm, or so they say. And neither one did anything exciting except language translation (one Russian and the other one Vietnamese) and interrogation. Or...so they say.

I know two people who were with the CIA. One never carried a gun. His weapon was a computer. The other carried a .380 Walther PP, if I remember correctly. It was made specially for the CIA with no markings or serial number. Now he's retired and carries a Beretta 92.

Bob Scroggie, formerly with OSS, then CIA, then ATF, carried a Walther P38. This was told to me by one of his co-workers at ATF. Scroggie was described as "crazy as a sewer rat".

I love how anytime people talk about the CIA NSA OSS SF SOCOM USPS or UPS, it is always in hushed terms, as if just speaking about it is somehow spooky. LOL

I was in the Army, was issued an A2. I did some computer stuff. We heard about the CIA. Didn't much care what the CIA did. Do they do anything? Do they really exist?

I think there are more movies about the CIA than there are employees of the CIA.

The comment about using computers more than pistols is so true for any intelligence work. I spent more time building databases, than I did anything else. I even went a whole year and never even checked my weapon out of the armory. We got a by on qualification using that silly simulator.

Intelligence gathering is not glamorous, but it is essential.

I have heard 'stories' about guns with no marking or serial numbers being issued to CIA personnel.

Would not such a gun arouse more suspicion than one with ordinary markings or SNs? Why not wear a sign around your neck saying "SPOOK". Buying guns that were "non-attributible" is one thing but no markings defeats the purpose of deep cover.

My personal dealings with agancy personnel is that they are good bureaucrats working for a moribound agency, but not stupid. I was a bartender for several years in a joint near Blue U and later Black U. The agency employees who identified themselves as such and tried to project an aura of mystery were always low level paper pushers and bean counters. Can't remember many of them that I would trust with a gun.

If they were anything like Airborne yelps, they pretty well carried what they liked. I was issued an M-4, but I could tote a .357 Mag or what have you, as a sidearm.
Some of the guys owned full-auto Uzi's, it was a menagerie. And this was with the WV NG!

I bet that those markings on the gun were "CAI" not "CIA"...

I have seen a lot of rough looking CAI guns!

I don't mean to brag, but I have several guns from the LGS...

Besides, who dug up this nearly 4 year old thread?????

All you have to do is play Call Of Duty Black Ops. If it's in that game it has to be real, right?

Supposedly the "Hush Puppy" had a latch/lock that could be engaged to allow a single shot to stop slide noise. I can not find the photo to prove it. Be Safe,

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I BACK OUR BLUE

double ought buck reporting for duty SIR!!!

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Forum consigliere

Originally "Century International Arms" and used CIA as their initials. Later they were 'asked' to change it! It then became CAI.

It also should have Georgia VT engraved on it.

buy the gun. Never buy the story.

"Intelligence? I have nothing to do with Intelligence! Col. Flagg

According to James Bond in Live and Let Die, standard CIA issue was a "custom 3 inch Smith & Wesson 38 with corrugated stock." That is just about as accurate as everything else I have read here.

Good question; would be interesting if they were. Possibly with the "hush puppy" and other 39/59 use in Vietnam by various entities.

I recently read Stephen Hunter's The Second Saladin, which I really liked. I recall the main character, Paul Chardy, a CIA guy, carried a 39 or 59 in the end.

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Cheers, Charles
SWCA #2442

I don't know who dug up this thread either, but hill country was right about a coupla things, am I an AFB, my Dad was a 130 pilot, and had about 65 hrs flying time in country in the Combat Talon I. MacVSog took over much of the CIA mission in country of providing airlift, etc airdrops over strange places and pioneered the HALO concept. My Dad told the story, overheard by me, of a couple of SOG grunts with two cases of "clean FN Hi-Powers", one of the grunts suggested to my Dad, who was admiring the Hi-Powers, "take a coupla those Major, we just use em, drop em and run like ----", of course he didn't, but later bought one, he also had me find him a clean Colt Cobra, which he carried in country, along with a clapped out M2 carbine. My Dad worked at the US embassy and was there in 1968 for the TET Offensive. After the embassy was overun he moved back to his old hotel out in the burbs, because downtown they couldn't trust anybody. I overheard this when one of his C-130 buddies visited us in the late 70s on the farm, there were only a coupla of these conversations ever, and my Dad never told any other details, although he had the MacVSog and the Stray Duck plaques hung on the wall in the den. He had some beautifull kodachromes of the fulton recovery system being tested in country that he had taken with his Nikkormat, both in the airplane and on the ground. Those were loaned to a Col at Little Rock, who failed to return them. No mention of any Smith 9s, though it wouldn't surprise me as my Dad's Colt Cobra was rather uncommon.