Anybody have a palmswell grip they would like to get rid of for a 1076. I am having a hard time finding one for sale anywhere. Or will the ones listed on S & W that fit the 1006 going to work. I would imagine they don't have the space for the decocker.

Call S&W you should be able to order all the grips for the 1076. I have all three types for all the 10 series.

I am glad you clarified that you are not trying to be a jerk, because I might have been confused otherwise.

I do not believe I said the FBI 1076s "functioned differently," but instead indicated that the FBI pistols used somewhat different parts than the standard 1076s.

One author describes it thusly:

"The FBI wanted the triggers with a non-standard release point to work
with the Rule-3-violating "trigger-prep" presentation that was in vogue at
the time. S&W blamed this for the recall."

Whether they did or did not is not the point I was making. I was trying to make the point that for whatever reason, the FBI's method of "prepping the trigger" did not get along well with the trigger/decocker system on the FBI 1076. Apparently, prepping the trigger would occasionally cause the 1076s to lock up so they would not fire. This resulted in at least one recall of the 1076.

If you will do your own research, you will come to the same conclusion that I have. FBI taught "prepping the trigger" at the time of the adoption of the 1076 acording to the article I mentioned.

The manual written by SSA Urey W. Patrick, Firearms Training Unit, FBI Academy, Quantico, Virginia, written and taught at the time of the adoption of the FBI 1076 is located here:

http://www.firearmstactical.co...nstruction_guide.pdf

Please look in Section III, on page 3 under the heading "Trigger Control," at which place you will find the instruction:

""Prep" the trigger by taking up the double action slack, but only to the point resistance is felt."

I will thank you to do your own research from now on instead of asking me to do it for you.

Okay, hey just wanted to thank everyone for their "opinions" in this thread. I think we are all learning here. DMC even admitted to not knowing it all about this gun, so no worries fellas. But just had a question, I haven't shot my 1076 yet, so if the gun is loaded with a bullet in the chamber and the decocking lever is pulled, does that simply decock the lever and nothing more or will it fire if you pull the lever. Maybe this is a stupid question, but I am very, very new to this gun and don't want to learn the hard way. Thus, is the lever simply to make the gun easier and safer to carry in a firing position. Thanks.

the decocking lever on the side of the frame is the ONLY safe way to lower the hammer on a chambered round. Keep your finger off the trigger and operate the lever and the hammer will be uncocked and released to its rest point without firing the pistol (assuming all is working properly and the decocking is performed properly by keeping the finger off the trigger).

Always point in a safe direction when decocking.

Cool, thanks.

dacoontz,
FYI, TFS3559 is an FBI 1076. Get your request into Mr. Jinks.
D

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dmc8163:
. All 10,000+ S&W Model 10s and 13s were destroyed as well.

Dave, I'm really enjoying your posts on the 1076. I do have 3 Model 13s however, that letter having been shipped to Quantico. Here's the letter on one of them as well as a picture of the 3 revolvers; all shipped different months between 1980-1981
Stay safe
Eliza

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Eliza:)

Eliza; I sure remember seeing a passel of those running around in the late '70s and into the mid '80s. I couldn't find one even on Department Letterhead until the late '80s when the FBI changed guns. Then they almost became a 'drug' on the market. My how things can "Change" over night in the Gun World!!!

Dacoontz,
P/N 205000000 - Grip, Palm Swell DL(Delrin) - ("FBI")
Are back in stock again at Smith and Wesson, I just received three sets.
See my post HERE.

The S&W P/N's for the 1026 and 1076 are:
203630000 - Grip, Curved DL(Delrin)
203650000 - Grip, Straight DL(Delrin)
205000000 - Grip, Palm Swell DL(Delrin) - ("FBI")

The widths installed on the gun are approx. using a vernier/dial indicator:

Curved - 1.075" Wide
Straight - 1.085" Wide
Palm Swell -("FBI") - 1.235" Wide

Regards,
BM1

Bad man, thanks for the info. I had someone else let me know as well, but didn't have these product numbers, that will help, thanks.
I took the new baby out shooting yesterday and it acutally felt really good with the straight back grips. And by the way, the gun shoots perfectly, as far as I can tell. I then shot my model 27 Glock, garbage. I now hate my glock and want to trade everything else in for smith and wessons. Only have the 469 and 1076 but we'll start looking for more. I am in love, is that wierd.

Yes, but not unusual!!! I'd be happy to give you a full $50.00 for your "Garbage Glock" if you figure it is sooooo bad and YES I'm serious 'cause if it's that bad it certainly can't be worth any more than that!!!

Well, your offer is tempting, but I know a few people that may be willing to pay a little more, but only because they aren't any wiser. I guess it can't be all garbage because only a few bagillion police officers use them, but I bet they would switch if they could.

I'd hate to take your money. You might take a look at my Avatar - I've been doing that for 30+ years.

KKG, oh yes, I had noticed that. So what do your guys mostly carry, I am guessing glocks? But, I have to behonest, it sure doesn't feel as good as this 1076 I just purchased. Although I think it is due to the size of my hands. The model 27 just feels a little fat and I find myself pulling to the right an awful lot. I have been told that it is because of the way I squeeze the trigger and pull back. So, as the instructor, how do you remedy that? Other than switching to the S&W.

I think you found the remedy!

I just found a 1076 but also own a Glock in their G23. The 1076 has the straight grips, but I'm going for a set of the palm swell grips for my XL size 11 hands. Have you tried the palm swell grips yet, dacoontz?

Glocks have a very strong foot hold on the police market but the Smith M&Ps(a Glock by any other name; so to speak) are making some headway. Some Departments are going with the Sigs because of the external hammer. This make for an interesting "issue' because the Sig Double Action Trigger Pull tends to be much heavier and a good bit longer than the Glock. The 'longer & heavier' DA pull is supposed to be better from a "legal"(read Lawyer input) stand point. Fewer accidents - according to the Lawyers. What is being found during training is that many Officers are simply Cocking the Hammer during the draw and shooting Single Action from the first shot! So much for the Lawyers' ideas!!!

I've tried the palm swell grips but my hands aren't that big. I find the G-23 and G-27(with the finger extension) to be just fine for me. If you've got big hands I'd suggest going to the larger Model 23 or even the 22. I carry a pair of G-27s but I have added the hooked type floor plate to all of my magazines.

The Full sized and all steel S&Ws are fine guns but they are a bit too heavy for many LEOs these days especially when you consider all the other 'stuff' that has become part of the "Duty Gun Belt" package.

The 10mm is also a fine cartridge but tends to be a bit hard to handle for many Officers. After the FBI went to the Model 1076 they found that many Agents had trouble getting a 'Double Tap' that kept both rounds on the target - even at fairly close Range. They went to the ammo companies and asked for a 'reduced' loading that would help with this control issue. That FBI loading shortly became the .40 S&W.

Grunts,
I have yet to try the palmswell. The straight back actually feels great, but if you think the palmswell will feel better than I will have to make the purchase.

KKG,
Nice post man. Thanks for that info. It seems strange that officers are having trouble with the 10 mm cartridge. I found my 1076 tons easier to shoot and way more accurate than the glock 27, at least for me. And I also have the finger extension. I even have a 15 round clip with a grip extension on it, but I still have the right pull and bad taste in my mouth after I shoot it. It's like it takes way too much effort to pull the trigger. Does that make sense? Maybe that is the way it is suppose to be since it has no true safety. On the other hand, the 27 is so easy to carry. I would love to find an S&W in at least the same caliber, if not more, that was as easy to conceal and carry. Anyone, maybe grunt, have any ideas?

Both of my Model 27s are equipped with the 3.5 pound trigger pull. These were standard on the early guns and did cause some 'problems' for transition because many Officers were used to a much heavier DA pull on their revolvers. I transitioned from a Model 19-3 that has a VERY light DA trigger pull. I think the "Factory Standard" is now 5.5 pounds. But I seem to remember a 'New York' trigger that was something like 12.5 pounds being offered. I also have a .22rf conversion kit for my Glocks and they allow me to practice a fair amount more than normal. It uses the regular Glock frame and so the trigger pull is an exact match for my carry guns.

In my opinion a 3.5 pound pull is fine for someone who is a 'shooter' but I also don't see a real problem with the 5.5 pull for the average Officer.. The 12.5 pull is plain silly - lawyer nonsense and nothing more.

Shooting a Smith "N" Frame .357 Magnum is much easier on the hand & body than shooting one of the newer "J" Frames in the same caliber. Same idea behind the extra weight for the heavier 10mm loadings. The Full Sized 10mm(1200fps) Glock is no where near as easy to shoot as the Full Sized .40S&W(950fps) even when shooting the original 180 grain bullet that these cartridges were both designed for.

Smith does offer their M&P line which is very much like the Glocks.

Cool, thanks again for the info.

I have to admit my G23 is really easy to carry when on our private hunting land. Does the M&P line come in 10mm? The G23 and 1076 are incredibly easy to fire accurately. If I were to become a LEO I would use the 23 as my back-up with the 1076 as primary, if allowed. (We don't have CCPs here in WI so I can't really speak fully to the carry issue.)

It doesn't appear that Smith is currently offering a 10mm but they are offering 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP. It's just my opinion but I personally don't see much purpose or future for the 10mm. A .45ACP loaded with a 180 grain bullet can achieve pretty much the same results and it can be done without much fuss and with a bullet that has a greater frontal profile.

Those Model 13s are absolutely positively awesome. I have been searching for a Model 13 and Model 10 2 1/2" that were shipped to the FBI since I started this whole FBI firearms thing. I was issued both revolvers in 1980. (Long story)

Your revolvers raise the question of course of how they reached the civilian market. I have been told that after the effort to permit Agents to purchase (approved by Reno by the way) their Model 13s failed in 1989 all the issued Model 13s were destroyed after they were returned to the Gunvault.

Ever one for theories I'm wondering if these revolvers were never issued but in the Gunvault's inventory. In theory they also should have been destroyed. Hmmm...is it possible they were returned to S&W? Not according to a S&W source. And from there sold as a used gun on the open market? But the one Letter has the revolver delivered In 12/80 (I graduated in 1/81) so it was in the Bureau's possession for a decade. Doesn't make sense based on the info I have. Further, if they were returned to S&W that would clearly be reflected in the Letter and it isn't. Sooo...if they weren't returned to S&W how did they get out????

You clearly have three handguns that shouldn't exist. Congrats!!!!

Do you have more information on the disposition of the Model 13s?

Thanks and stay safe, Dave

Prepping the trigger is taking out the slack, or spring tension prior to the movement of the sear. Finger on the trigger, take the slack out then start the press through the sear resistance (or connector in striker fired guns).

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Have you really seen a .45acp that could get 1200+fps out of a 180gr bullet?

Cor-Bon Hunter 180gr averages 1200fps out of my Smith 610 so any auto should be slightly higher...and it's not even as hot as possible. VV lists a 180gr bullet JHP at 1300fps with N105 powder (what I use for .38Supercomp).

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Eliza,
I remembered something else that may be of interest. New Agents Class beginning on 2/4/80 was issued .38 cal. Model 10s with a 2 1/2" heavy barrel. By October of 1980 new agents were being issued .357 cal. Model 13s. This should help narrow the time frame of the transition to Model 13s. I liked them both but really liked the Model 10.
D

940lvr,

Apparently I can't contact you via your profile. Would you please contact me using mine.

"They were either great or really bad and there seemed to be no in between."

Thanks, D

Yes.

Okay, what load and what gun? That's beyond anything anybody publishes.

The closest you could come would be a plated or lead bullet, and even then, nobody claims 1200fps within pressure limits.

.45acp simply can NOT be loaded to the same ballistics as a 10mm and stay within pressure limits. It's not even really close. Sure, .45acp can be hot rodded to be plenty powerful, but there's no free lunch and you'll have to go over pressure limits to get close to what a 10mm gets well within limits.....and they've backed off 10mm compared with when it was first released (find some of the data on the old Norma stuff).

Cor-Bon is know for loading pretty much the hotest ammo you can get from a mainstream company. Their .45acp 185gr +P load is listed at 1150fps out of a 5" tube. No way anybody's getting another 150fps out of it and be even remotely close to SAAMI specs for pressure.

Their 10mm 180gr hunter load is listed at 1300fps out of a 4.6" barrel (assuming an auto). That load in my revolver with a 3 7/8" barrel is 1200fps on the nose. So, with a shorter barrel it's getting an extra 150fps and it's not considered +P.

Hornady's .45acp 185gr XTP load is listed at 970fps out of a 5" barrel. Their 200gr XTP +P load is 1055fps out of a 5" barrel. Sure, the bullet is heavier, but dropping 20gr isn't gonna speed it up 150-250fps.

Hodgdon's loading data center lists a single load for .45acp with a 185gr bullet that's over 1000fps (1044). They have a few more with 180gr lead that break 1000fps, but the fastest was still only 1047fps.

Compare that with their data for 10mm and it shows a 180gr JHP at 1287fps with a number of others in the 1200+ range.

Unfortunately they used PSI for 10mm and CUP for .45acp so you can't readily compare apples to apples in pressure for the Hodgdon loads, but there's no comparison, 10mm is a much higher pressure cartridge. .45acp+P SAAMI max pressure is 23,000psi. 10mm SAAMI max is 37,500psi.

I've loaded a LOT of .45acp, love it to death (my first centerfire handgun is a Gold Cup Series 70 bought new when I was 13 and still have), but it's not capable of coming close to what a 10mm can do unless you go way over SAAMI specs...and if you do the same with the 10mm it'd even further embarras the .45 since the case web is thicker and stronger so you can go a lot farther, pressure wise, without blowing out cases. The cross-section and sectional density differences are worth something, for certain, but in terms of pure energy there really isn't any debate about which one is more powerful. R

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Excellent post Bart I would also agree with you. I load 45 and 10 and there is really no comparison, the 10mm really stands alone with velocity,energy, and bullet weight.

The early Norma 10mm Auto ammo threw a 200 grain JFP bullet at a smidge over 1,200 fps out of my early Colt Delta Elite. Warm!

The FBI 10mm loading: The FBI decided upon a 180 grain JHP at about 950 fps because that bullet weight at that velocity gave them the desired amount of penetration in their ballistic gelatin. The fact that it was much easier to shoot than full power 10mm ammo was a bonus to them.

Mr. Hall said that they could have gotten the same ballistic performance from the .45 ACP and it's 185 grain JHP but that they went with the 10mm instead because they wanted to adopt a cartridge that would make both the big bore and small bore/high cap crowds happy, a cartridge that didn't bring pre-concieved opinions with it, which baggage the .45 ACP and 9mm Parabellum had in spades!

G-ManBart; you have chosen to speak out against many of my Posts and I'm not interested in giving you anything that might be used against me in a Court of your own choosing!!!

I don't publish my own loading data because there are too many people out there who will use it as a place to start.

Buff,
I am extremely interested in your citation to John Hall as saying "...they went with the 10mm instead because they wanted to adopt a cartridge that would make both the big bore and small bore/high cap crowds happy...". This is a very important issue. Would you tell me the source of this statement by John Hall? Thanks for your help.
D

On a brighter note, Im looking to purchase an FBI 1076, if anyone knows where/when one is available please let me know. Thanks.

Hey Congrats on the decision!!

I think my '76 is a non-FBIer but that doesn't stop me from playin Scully and Moulder or Crockett and Tubbs!

YOU GUYS HAVE TO SEE THIS

Gunbroker has a killer set of 1076 and 1006 models for sale if you have $1500+ to drop. Holy **** those are cool, but no longer original. I would like to get a hold of those "hogue tulip" grips. They are prrrrretty. There is also a non-FBI model in great condition n there currently at $500, not a bad price.

Buff, you are correct and this has been widely reported, but it has also been reported that Mr. Hall felt that the 10mm had more potential at the high end than did the 45 ACP.

It seems that the FBI had for many years, according to reports, had sort of the "standard" carry ammo (38 +P 158 LHP), but if the need arose, magnums could be handed out and used in the Model 13s or other revolvers chambered for magnums.

The idea of two power levels in the same gun seems to have carried over, as the standard issue load was about a 180 or 190 (depending on what year), at just under 1,000 fps yet the 10mm could be loaded safely to much higher power and still work fine in the all steel S&W 1076.

While the ACP and the standard issue 10 were similar in power, the ACP was at the top of its power curve and the 10 had potential to be loaded much higher, thus giving it more long distance effect.

Whether the FBI ever carried through with the idea to have a hotter load, I do not know, but that was reported in articles by Charlie Petty and others at the time, if I recall. A hotter 10 would have certainly been the ticket in their 10mm HK sub guns!

Check out the post started by LadyFed. I simply copied and pasted my post here.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/e...520103904/m/53110803


Lady Fed, thanks for this posting. It would be nice to attach this to the recent 1076 posting. It is intersting that your model has the horizontal lines on the anterior aspect of the grip. And interestingly enough, I just purchased a S&W Standard catalog (2006) that talks about the FBi 1076 and states that those with serial number beginning TEU, like yours that is pictured, stands for "Test & Evaluation Unit." But it also states tht another model with serial number TFKxxx has alos been confirmed. The book needs a little updating because other serial numbers with a variety of prefixes have also been confirmed. I wonder if TEU was part of the original shipment that went to the FBI, or maybe there was only one shipment? Anyway, thanks for the post and pictures. We should have a seperate section in this forum just for the 1076 where we can have people post the copies of their letters, if they so choose? Where's DMC, what does he think about this?

TEU serial number pistols were included in the first 250 test pistols sent to the FBI Academy. TEU does NOT stand for Test and Evaluation Unit. TEU was simply the serial number series on the line at the time they were selected for shipment to the Bureau. The confusion may stem from the fact that the group of Firearms Instructors that tested the original S&W and Colt entries in the contract competition was called the Test & Evaluation Group. Other serial numbers have been found among the 250 test pistols. And at the time the FBI 1076s were manufactured the pistol frames were pulled from line inventory with no thought of serial numbers and in fact FBI 1076s bear a wide variety of pre-fixes including among others TEU, TEV, TFE, TFF, TFH, TFK, TFL, TFN, TFP, TFX, THB, and THC. I believe that all of the test pistols had the horizontal lines. The crosshatch design on the grip was set forth in the contract and appeared on the pistols at a later date. I believe that all 1076s actually issued to Agents had the crosshatch grip.

If I may, I would like to briefly address the media coverage of the FBI 1076 at the time it was being selected and issued. As is always the case, not everything you read in the magazines of the day was accurate. Just because something appears in writing does not make it true.

Thanks
D

Thanks for the clarification with that, so much mystery and misinformation about this gun. And on a side note, still waiting for my letter from Mr. Jinks. Will post the results when it comes in, with a picture, if I can figure out how to post a picture on here.

BUMMER!!! I just got me letter back from Mr. Jinks. NOT an FBI model. I thought I was good but checkered front grip, caution warning is not enough. Mine was sold to Bangers L.P. (a sporting goods store) and then sold to Staunton Police Department in Staunton, VA. Oh well, pretty damn close to Quantico but not close enough. But no worries, I still love my 1076, just not as much.

Mine came from the Ky State Police.. love it just the same!!!

dmc8163 I think I have a relative to yours mine is TEUO22x. I was told it came from the police dept. who got it from the fbi to try out.
How do you get in touch with S&W to trace the number.
I have the box and papers but it says SW10764U on the box what ever that means.
I still think they should start production of these up again. Mine is just as if not more reliable than my glock. Im sure its more accurate than my glock.

Here is what I found:

10mm NORMA factory specs
200gr FMJ @ 1180fps
170gr JHP @ 1330fps
165gr JHP @ 1400fps

Also:
More HERE

The Rainier rep (Phyllis) informed me that the 135 GR can be driven up to 1435 FPS,
the 155 GR to 1325 FPS, the 180 GR up to 1140 FPS, 200 GR up to 1100 FPS

Regards,
BM1

I chronographed some of the early Norma 10MM through my then-new Colt Delta Elite back then. Indoor range, 70 degrees, 10 shot string averaged just over 1,200 fps! The 170 grainers were about 1,350, if memory serves. It was indeed some hot stuff.

The first big batch of Norma imported to the U.S. was pretty erratic. I never clocked it, but it was easy to tell that the ammo was varying from shot to shot from the muzzle flash and what seemed to be varying recoil.

The brass was very good for reloading, too.

If I am not mistaken I have loaded the 135 JHP with power pistol powder and the velocity is around 1500fps. I don't have the load data available right now.

I bought all the Norma 10mm gun store had for 16.00 a box and I like it but shoot it sparingly.
I just found out my 1076 was an FBI one like I thought it was but just because I think it doesnt confirm it so S&w confirmmed it for me.
Does that add any extra value to it or not????
Not that its going anywhere but to the range.

Great martyj. Be sure to request a letter from Roy Jinks.

FYI: There is a verified FBI model 1076 on Gunbroker right now. It looks like it was one of the original ones starting with "TEU".

I haven't chosen to "speak out against many of your posts". If I've disagreed I've done so politely, with facts. Heck, I've agreed with you in other threads, it's just that I don't agree with you in this case and have asked a legitimate question you don't seem willing to back up with data. I suspect that the particular load you might be referring to would clearly be well beyond published data...it almost certainly would have to be if you've seen the numbers you're talking about.

It's not a popularity contest and it's not about personal pride here....get over yourself man. There was no insult or offense, so there's no need to act like there was. Too bad there wasn't a 1200fps .45acp club that you could join and add that to your signature line....lol (yes, that was a joke, relax)

No matter how much I love the .45acp, it can't do what a 10mm can and stay within SAAMI specs and I simply don't believe a person reloading with cannister grade powder is going to get 1200fps out of a 185gr bullet at anywhere near SAAMI MAP. If someone wants to go off the charts and load the equivalent of proof loads, it might work, but it's not a real smart thing to try.

Using Hodgdon's reloading data center as a baseline (Hodgdon, Win and IMR powders for a decent cross section) they only list a single load with a 185 that breaks 1100fps (1150). The same data for 10mm shows loads approaching 1300fps (1287) with a 4.6" rather than 5" barrel. Even up the barrel length and the 10 is going to have an even bigger margin.

Further, if someone wants to handload beyond book levels to get their .45acp to near 10mm factory performance, the same person could load 10mm to beyond book levels just the same...in the end the 10mm is going to be more powerful any way you cut it.

No matter how you cut it, pressure is pressure. .45acp+P is a 23,000psi cartridge. 10mm is 37,500psi. If we're pushing similar bullets out similar length barrels there's simply no way you can get more or even roughly equal velocity using less pressure. 14,500psi difference is simply too much a gap to fill.

It's not a good thing, a bad thing or an insult, it's just the way it is. .45acp is great, 10mm is great, I own both, and they are both more than capable for their intended purposes, but to suggest that the .45acp can, in any way, equal the performance of the 10mm is just silly....can't happen. R,

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