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Smith & Wesson - The Wish List Products You WISH S&W would Manufacture


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  #1  
Old 10-18-2009, 01:23 PM
IownOneorTwo IownOneorTwo is offline
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Default Revolver rifle

...in .357 mag
with an 18" octagon barrel
edit:first post!
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Old 10-18-2009, 07:18 PM
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That was done, about 150 yrs or so ago. They didn't sell.

Last edited by therevjay; 10-18-2009 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:36 PM
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Burn the %&*@ out of your left hand if you put it over the cylinder, which is VERY easy to do with a revolver rifle. There are some foreign repros made, and they don't sell well.
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Old 10-19-2009, 02:54 AM
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Welcome to the board!

Not a good idea. The cylinder air gap will cut thru your wrist.
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Old 10-19-2009, 09:18 PM
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Guys, the idea with the originals and reproductions is to hold onto the wrist of the stock with your off hand for stabilization. And no they did not sell well but they were an innovative repeating long gun in the days before inventions like the volcanic or self contained metal cartridge.
Personally, I do not think he has that bad of an idea. The main reason that the reproductions don't sell well is because they are basically a SAA.
A modern magnum design with a swing out cylinder and adjustable sights would be no more impractical than some of the pistol caliber carbines currently on the market.
Give the guy a break.
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Old 10-19-2009, 10:05 PM
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This isn't exactly what you are looking for, but it is a move in the right direction - the Russian made KBP MTs 225 tactical revolver shotgun:

The Firearm Blog | Gun, Tactical & Hunting News
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Old 10-19-2009, 10:59 PM
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I still don't think it's a good idea. No matter how many warnings they put in the owners manual SOMEBODY would manage to lose a finger or two, and sue.

Also, with the at least 16" Bbl. (legal minimum) it would have to have it would be very awkward to shoot.

I have a replica 1860 Colt Army with detachable stock. It works fairly well, but of course being a BP frontloader can have a much shorter Bbl.

Last edited by therevjay; 10-19-2009 at 11:07 PM. Reason: CRS
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Old 10-20-2009, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IownOneorTwo View Post
...in .357 mag
with an 18" octagon barrel
edit:first post!
You mean something like this?
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  #9  
Old 10-20-2009, 01:56 PM
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Default Revolver rfile, no so good and idea

Didn't Uberti make one?
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Old 10-21-2009, 03:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therevjay View Post
I still don't think it's a good idea. No matter how many warnings they put in the owners manual SOMEBODY would manage to lose a finger or two, and sue.

Also, with the at least 16" Bbl. (legal minimum) it would have to have it would be very awkward to shoot.

I have a replica 1860 Colt Army with detachable stock. It works fairly well, but of course being a BP frontloader can have a much shorter Bbl.
I think they are ment to be held like this when shooting.
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Old 10-21-2009, 05:06 AM
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YouTube - Keep your fingers away from the cylinder edge...
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  #12  
Old 11-17-2009, 02:01 PM
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I have always wanted one of these...

Knight Armament's Revolver Rifle

I'd load with the heaviest pointed bullet I could get to around 920fps and have a blast. Would be great for hunting boar where legal.
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Old 12-12-2009, 04:35 AM
NE450No2 NE450No2 is offline
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I think if S&W brought out a 44Mag revolver rifle with an 18 to 20" barrel, they could sell all they could make.

It should be simple to design a deflector to keep the cylinder gap gas from hitting the arm of the shooter.
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Old 12-16-2009, 01:09 AM
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Wow! I didn't expect to see Lee Van Cleef!
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Old 12-16-2009, 10:34 AM
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You could build it using the Mosin Nagant sliding cylinder concept.
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  #16  
Old 02-18-2010, 01:12 PM
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Default A Revolving Rifle Solution

My apologies to anyone I missed but in a fast pass of the “Wish List” section of the Forum, I found a number of requests for a revolving rifle. I have included the lead postings from those threads plus any responses that mentioned or discussed the obvious problem of such guns that include a forend, which encourages the gripping of the handgun in a long-gun-like manner.

(Note that I didn’t include the wonderful picture posted by Qball from Sweden of Lee Van Cleef’s conventional two handed hold of a non-forend-employing stocked 1873 type revolver, which does show what appears to be one of the correct procedures for guns of that type.)

All of you that I list here are pretty much correct in your assumptions as to what can happen if the forend is used for a gripping or support position for such guns: the blast emitting from the “flash gap” [the all-but-necessary amount of clearance between the back of the barrel and the face of the cylinder that’s employed to keep the residue from several sources from “fouling out” (clogging and/or binding up) the revolver after repeated shots have been made] can injure the user.

Quote:
Originally Posted by petemacmahon View Post
It could simply be based on the current X frame hunter model. The shape of the grip area of the shoulder stock would have to properly configured to support efficient double action shooting.

I've asked a couple of custom smiths, but nobody seemed interested. I called S&W custom shop and the longest barrel they had in stock was 14 inches. Probably would be cheaper to register it as an SBR than have a custom 16 inch barrel made. But nobody ever did come up with any solid ideas on how to manage the gas blow by from the cylinder gap. Unmitigated, that would burn and lacerate my left forearm.

Here in PA, semi-autos are not allowed for hunting. So this would be the fastest shooting legal deer rifle to be had! I would venture to say, however, that one would probably have to hunt with active ear muffs, because I would imagine the blast would be significant and your head would actually be closer to it then if would if you were shooting a handgun at full extension. I hunt with electronic muffs now when I use handguns and this would be the same.
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Originally Posted by Photog View Post
PeteM:
Have a gunsmith attach a 2.5" muzzle brake to the 14" barrel and then you would be legal. ATF has rules on their website on what constitutes the proper way to attach a muzzle brake to be legal. A lot of the AR15/M4 rifles have barrels that are 14.5" and have the brake/flash hider attached to make them legal.
Sounds like an interesting idea, but where are you going to hold your "weak" hand to avoid flame cutting your hand/wrist, while still providing a steady hold?
If you do this, please keep us informed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by petemacmahon View Post
Photog,

A permanently affixed muzzle break to legal length....brilliant...why didn't I think of that?! Now if I could only figure out that burning gas issue.

Adudeuknow,

Double action shooting would be a bunch faster than your 45-70. I already have a guide gun. Don't get me wrong, I love it. But this gun would be one that nobody else would have but me!
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Originally Posted by hastings View Post
How about a pump version. I've found a pump is a little faster than a lever-gun, and it would obviously not have the forearm-shredding cylinder-gap issues the revolver carbine would have. I, too, will stick with my Marlin 45-70. I sympathize with the desire for a one of a kind firearm, but sometimes no one else has one because they don't make sense mechanically/functionally. Good Luck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smith357 View Post
I wonder if there is a market for such a gun. I would buy one, it seems like it could be a dandy brush gun or guide gun.
Dave Nash Note: Smith357's message above was accompanied and illustrated by a wonderful thumbnail that I am including below as my Attachment 01: Smith .357 X-Frame Carbine

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCWilson View Post
The design looks cool, but what happens to the part of your forearm that is below the barrel/cylinder gap when you light one off? Steel sleeves may be advisable given the pressures at which these guns operate. Or maybe you shoot these things with a bipod or a sling loop around a tree. (But watch for flying bark!)

I have always been leery of revolving rifles or long-barrel revolvers with detachable stocks. The consequences of chain fire in percussion revolvers pretty much doomed the design. While I don't expect chain fire in cartridge revolvers, you can't ignore the high-pressure gases in the X-frame models.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjw3 View Post
DCW is right about that design; I would not be too keen on picking powder particles, etc. out of my forearm.

The idea is old and has never been popular.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IownOneorTwo View Post
Revolver rifle ...in .357 mag
with an 18" octagon barrel
edit:first post!
Quote:
Originally Posted by OKFC05 View Post
Burn the %&*@ out of your left hand if you put it over the cylinder, which is VERY easy to do with a revolver rifle. There are some foreign repros made, and they don't sell well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 500 Magnum Nut View Post
Welcome to the board!

Not a good idea. The cylinder air gap will cut thru your wrist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoosierMike View Post
Guys, the idea with the originals and reproductions is to hold onto the wrist of the stock with your off hand for stabilization. And no they did not sell well but they were an innovative repeating long gun in the days before inventions like the volcanic or self contained metal cartridge.
Personally, I do not think he has that bad of an idea. The main reason that the reproductions don't sell well is because they are basically a SAA.
A modern magnum design with a swing out cylinder and adjustable sights would be no more impractical than some of the pistol caliber carbines currently on the market.
Give the guy a break.
Quote:
Originally Posted by therevjay View Post
I still don't think it's a good idea. No matter how many warnings they put in the owners manual SOMEBODY would manage to lose a finger or two, and sue.

Also, with the at least 16" Bbl. (legal minimum) it would have to have it would be very awkward to shoot.

I have a replica 1860 Colt Army with detachable stock. It works fairly well, but of course being a BP frontloader can have a much shorter Bbl.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qball View Post
You mean something like this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 500 Magnum Nut View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 22steelshooter View Post
I have always wanted one of these...

Knight Armament's Revolver Rifle

I'd load with the heaviest pointed bullet I could get to around 920fps and have a blast. Would be great for hunting boar where legal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NE450No2 View Post
I think if S&W brought out a 44Mag revolver rifle with an 18 to 20" barrel, they could sell all they could make.

It should be simple to design a deflector to keep the cylinder gap gas from hitting the arm of the shooter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by forrestinmathews View Post
Why not build an idiot shield into the cylinder crane and design the cylinder arm to be easily released for cleaning...It really wouldn't be that difficult and could be designed in such a way to vent the gases up instead.
It now appears that this issue may have been solved; or at least addressed in a manner that I have not seen used before. It relates directly to "forrestinmathews" "idiot shield" mentioned in the last post I have included above.

Last month at SHOT, Bob Morrison of Taurus took me over to the Rossi part of their display and showed me the introduced-at-the-show Revolving Rifle version of their amazingly successful “Judge” concept handgun.

Now, I realize that many people who contribute to this site routinely and in less-than-professional ways, express their dislike of anything not Smith & Wesson and especially anything Taurus-related. I don’t want to get into those arguments. If that’s your opinion, fine but please respect my attempt to assist the gentlemen I am “quoting” here in a technical matter and don’t flood this thread with such remarks.

I am only trying to show these people, who all recognized the very real issue presented by revolving rifles (and shotguns for that matter as they were made in the past and this new gun does accept .410 shells as well) that someone, in a production firearm, has finally seemed to address things in what appears to be a simple and (hopefully, I did not fire the weapon) successful manner. If the pictures are not clear, they literally “shield” the users’ extended arms from the blast by installing an encircling cover-like piece at the front of the cylinder. Only time will tell in regard to its performance and acceptance by the buying public but at least it's something; and something that might help to prove out the practicality of such weapons.

Advancements in technology come from all directions and I hope that my posting here is helpful in revealing at least some part of a new approach to a firearm concept that I, like many of you, find intriguing: the revolving cylinder long gun.

Please note that the photos below came from the company's materials that I obtained at the show. However, the Rossi website has been updated and contains two pages that explain the gun in detail: Rossi 2010 What's New Catalog and Rossi 2010 What's New Catalog

It should be further noted that they do seem to be missing the boat by not highlighting and explaining the shielding concept; guess they didn't see it as important to explain as those quoted here might think or that Mr. Morrison obviously did when he kindly explained it to me.

Hope you find this of interest and maybe it will also spur interest in other quarters.

Dave Nash
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 01 Smith357 X Frame Carbine.jpg (23.4 KB, 680 views)
File Type: jpg 02 SCJ4510_RIGHT.jpg (11.8 KB, 1190 views)
File Type: jpg 03 SCJ4510_LEFT.jpg (11.4 KB, 597 views)
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  #17  
Old 03-25-2010, 02:29 PM
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Default Don't pay attention to all the nay sayers

Quote:
Originally Posted by IownOneorTwo View Post
...in .357 mag
with an 18" octagon barrel
edit:first post!
I was the one that started a similar thread for a X frame revolving 460. To me it had enough merit to ask the custom shop and a few of the top smiths if they would be interested. Nobody took me up. But to my chagrin, Taurus appears to have beat S&W to the market:

Rossi 2010 What's New Catalog

And my local shop already has two on order already. Price is 495.

------------------------------
Oh, I posted this b4 I read page two and saw Dave Nash's excellent post. But dave, where did you get that picture of the the S&W rifle? Scan arms is all in German, can't get much out of that site.
------------
I'm going to ask my local shop owner to ask the person who has one on order now if I can see it when it comes in and maybe even (If I buy him a box of ammo) let me put a few rounds down range to test it out.

I'll report back.

Last edited by petemacmahon; 03-25-2010 at 03:05 PM.
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  #18  
Old 03-27-2010, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petemacmahon View Post
I was the one that started a similar thread for a X frame revolving 460. To me it had enough merit to ask the custom shop and a few of the top smiths if they would be interested. Nobody took me up. But to my chagrin, Taurus appears to have beat S&W to the market:

Rossi 2010 What's New Catalog

And my local shop already has two on order already. Price is 495.

------------------------------
Oh, I posted this b4 I read page two and saw Dave Nash's excellent post. But dave, where did you get that picture of the the S&W rifle? Scan arms is all in German, can't get much out of that site.
------------
I'm going to ask my local shop owner to ask the person who has one on order now if I can see it when it comes in and maybe even (If I buy him a box of ammo) let me put a few rounds down range to test it out.

I'll report back.
“petemacmahon”

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you; I have been busy.

The ScanArms ad image taken from “Qball’s” original posting might be a bit dated. I’m not sure of their current status and much of what you might find of theirs would (I think) be in Swedish although the reproduced ad indicates a tie with Frankonia who acquired Wischo some time ago.

Wischo used to do all kinds of things with Smith. Everything from stock guns with nothing more than the words “Target Champion” etched or engraved on the side to all-out special order pieces that never saw the light of day in the U.S. They did other things too with Smith and unrelated to this topic, they were the ones who sold off a good number of the left over Model 19-P’s into the European continent.

Although a while back I thought I saw a press release indicating that Wischo was now considered to be the wholesale arm of Frankonia's business, I am not sure what Frankonia’s relationship is with S&W. I have also seen references to a company called "Waimex" that might be what Wischo once was in regard to be a specialty Smith outlet. Confusing to say the least; although Waimex is now listed as the S&W's German Distributor on their (S&W's) website.

In any case, the stocked gun in that picture could have been done on either side of the pond and I am checking into whether or not it was done here. My feeling at this point (and I will get back to you if and when I hear something) is that it probably wasn’t simply because of all the issues involved.

For if it clearly can’t be shown that such a gun started out as a rifle, it is a nightmare to deal with in regard to the paperwork. And even making something here, for sale over there, that wouldn’t be sold here, can be procedurally problematic; both in theory (paperwork) and in practice [actual items floating around that can shipped to the wrong place in error or that can be “reimported” (a polite term) in violation of the law].

I realize that T/C (now a part of S&W) went to the Supreme Court on a somewhat related (but perhaps not truly applicable) matter and won but is it worth it in small numbers, probably not. For example, back in the 90’s when T/C (not yet affiliated with S&W) was already involved with outright stocked handguns in Europe (as was Dan Wesson, I think), Smith & Wesson still had the tooling on hand for the shoulder stocks for their 37mm gas launchers, which were basically breaktop non-gun N-Frames with a slightly different way of fitting things to the grip frame. The tooling, the stocks and/or the guns themselves could have been modified to make a shoulder stock for the conventional N-Frame revolvers that were being sold overseas BUT it was felt that for the volumes involved, the chances for something going askew were just not worth it. And I don’t blame them.

However, when you make something as a real model for sale in the larger US market, then guns can be built from the ground up as rifles/long guns and these issues can be sidestepped as long as you are also building things in a way where conversion into something illegal cannot be easily accomplished. I didn’t spend a lot of time with the gun but it didn’t seem like that would be a problem with the Taurus. And for all that people on this site say about them, it should be recognized that they are a big enough and a professional enough company to not go looking for trouble in such a manner. Also note that I am not an attorney nor am I offering legal advice in regard to the NFA. I neither wish to be quoted as an expert (or even correct) in these matters nor do I wish to be dragged into an endless discussion about what can and can't be done legally.

As to your looking at the one already on order at your local gun shop, I can tell you that the samples I handled at SHOT (I handled two and we must remember that they were show samples) were nicely fitted and finished and the actions felt good. If that continues with the production guns, the one you see should be pretty neat. I have long thought the revolving rifle was an intriguing concept and I think that this could turn out to be a real fun gun. And looking at the number of people who have taken the time to read the various postings regarding this concept on this site, hopefully once it becomes available, they will think so too.

Finally, the image of the Smith “rifle” you asked about was credited in my original posting to “Smith357” as he had included it along with the piece that I quoted from him.

Dave Nash
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Old 03-27-2010, 12:07 PM
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See this months issue of the American Rifleman. New in 2010 is Taurus 45 Colt/410 Bore Circuit Judge Carbine.
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Old 03-28-2010, 03:43 AM
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Well, now that Taurus is making the "Revolver Rifle Judge", S&W is Crazy if they do not make a 44 Mag, 460 Mag, and a 500 Mag Revolver Rifle...

With 18" barrels...

They would sell THOUSANDS of them....

They should all be steel framed, with iron sights, and built in scope mounts... Scope mounts that you do not have to remove the rear sight to mount the scope...

They would sell THOUSANDS of them...

THOUSANDS I SAY...
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Old 03-28-2010, 03:45 AM
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With out the lock of course....
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Old 03-30-2010, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NE450No2 View Post
Well, now that Taurus is making the "Revolver Rifle Judge", S&W is Crazy if they do not make a 44 Mag, 460 Mag, and a 500 Mag Revolver Rifle...
..
Yes, I think we should all pester them daily until they do!

Quote:
Originally Posted by NE450No2 View Post
. Scope mounts that you do not have to remove the rear sight to mount the scope...
.
The scope mount should look like their current 460 hunter from the custom shop and be an integral picatiny/weaver mounting out on the front of the frame/rear of the barrel. Personally, I would mount one of those small reflex type red dots.
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Old 05-06-2014, 11:26 PM
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The Taurus 45/410 circuit judge is, from the reviews, a nice gun. However, the Rossi circuit judge in the 22/22mag configuration was an abysmal flop. This is a shame because the idea is a good one, but Taurus/Rossi executed the idea poorly. I would think the S & W could this gun and do it right.

I have a 22/22mag revolver that I like a lot; I can plink and I can hunt with the gun. Unfortunately when I went to get its match in a rifle I ran into a mess.

The reviews for the rifle revolver vary from ok to horrible; most toward the horrible side. The problem is that while Rossi resolved the blow-by, it made a barrel cone big enough to swallow a mag shell, up to 2 1/2 inches deep and so wide that the blast passes the lead and impedes the shot--to the point where the mag shoots at about the power of a regular 22 LR. Not good.

I wanted one of these but I am not willing to spend $600 for a good try. It seems like the idea a good one and that Smith & Wesson could do it right. The demand is certainly there since the internet is replete with reviewers who gave the Rossi a run.

And there is this: I think it's a shame that American gun makers would let other countries beat it to the research and development of fine guns.
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Old 05-07-2014, 05:40 AM
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Make your own. LOL. I did this one from a S&W Brazilian and made a 45LC cylinder that is cut for 45ACP and full moons. No blast shields. I haven't fired it with a bare left arm, but it doesn't bother my arm with a heavy long sleeved shirt. What you do notice is a little bit of peppering to the face as your face is much closer to the cylinder than when normally holding a revolver at arms length. Yes I adjustable sights by milling the slot in the frame.

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Old 05-07-2014, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H Richard View Post
See this months issue of the American Rifleman. New in 2010 is Taurus 45 Colt/410 Bore Circuit Judge Carbine.
I've owned one of those and even with the little deflectors on the sides, it'll still pepper your wrist and arm with hot powder.



Something in a lever action would be safer and ultimately more enjoyable to shoot.
Even a "Mares Leg" would be preferable.

I think I made a grand total of 3 trips to the range with it, before I got tired of burning the **** out of my wrist and just sold the thing.
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Old 05-07-2014, 05:03 PM
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Steelslaver; I like what you've made, in part because I've been thinking of making my own 22/22mag revolver rifle, and in part because you are way ahead of me.

Perhaps you (and others here) can address some of my questions. First, what revolver(s) would be a logical beginning point for a rifle with interchangeable cylinders for both 22 and 22 mag shot? Second, do you know of a revolver made by a company that might make a compatible barrel of 18 inches (or thereabouts)?

Also, have you seen the blast guards on the Rossi rifle revolver? They look a little strange but seem to work and might be added to your project.

Thanks for any help.
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Old 05-07-2014, 11:10 PM
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Smith revolvers in 22 cal are kind of on the spendy side now days for a project like this unless you find one with problems. Just about any 22 revolver can have a piece of 22 barrel threaded and fit to it. I don't know where you would get a made up long barrel. I made mine from a 1.25 od blank and turned and threaded it. The fittings for the forestock and the ejector rod lug are dovetailed into the barrel. If you don't have at lathe (and a mill helps a lot) it would be difficult.
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Old 05-08-2014, 11:15 AM
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Steelslaver;

Thanks for your response. This is probably not a good project for me.

How about this, what if I found a used Rossi, purchased a bolt action barrel and had the cone drilled by a machine shop? The cone seems to be where the problem is.
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Old 05-08-2014, 02:09 PM
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The problem might also be that if the Rossi cone were not so deep and wide that the blow-by would be horrific. One of the reviewers had written Rossi and demanded his money back; the response was that the gun operated according to its design. I may be looking for something that is impossible. Darn.
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Old 05-08-2014, 11:16 PM
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In a 22 the blast from the gap would be small. Besides the forcing cone issue you would need to have the barrel threaded and you would need to install a ejector rod lug. I used a lathe to turn my threads and cleaned them up with a die I made using a tap from Brownels. Just the die is about $80. I had to do a lot of measuring and figuring to dovetail the ejector lug in the correct location. If you don't have machine tools or a buddy who does the cost would be pretty steep.
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Old 05-09-2014, 11:18 AM
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Thank you steelslaver. I'm going to try and put the idea of a rifle/revolver 22/22mag out of my mind for a while. I appreciate your advice on the matter.
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Old 05-09-2014, 08:22 PM
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Easier said than done. I really like the idea of the 22/22mag capability. So I can't help myself. I have more questions than answers, and that's driving me to continue in this search.

The main question is, can this problem be fixed? Could a machinist bore out the cone, insert a plug and re-drill the cone?

And here's another one. Even though the 22 mag might not shoot with any more speed than than a 22 long rifle shell, would it have more impact?

And yet another. Part of my liking for the 22/22mag configuration is that I can sit on my back porch and shoot low powered ammo without having my neighbors calling the police. If the problem of the over-size cone slowed down the magnum, would it also slow down the low-power shot and lead to the possibility of the shot getting stuck in the barrel?

Lots of questions. I selected this forum because it looked to me like the people here knew what they were talking about. I know I've somewhat perverted the focus of this forum, but the subject matter is somewhat generic and does lead to the question of whether S&W could make the gun under discussion.
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