.455 2nd Model Hand Ejector

[smithywess]

I am quite happy that I have acquired a new revolver which is in very fine shape and in it's original calibre of .455 Webley. I'm sure there are experts here who would find this quite common but I have been loading this calibre for a Mark VI Webley for 20 years now and always wanted the Smith & Wesson Government contract revolver made for the British in the Great War of 1914. This one I have hardly seems used. There is a faint cylinder line. It's serial # is 52XXX. This # appears under the barrel with the letter"B" ahead of it by half an inch, on the face of the cylinder, on the bottom of the grip and in pencil under the right grip. There is another #6319 on the frame just above the crane hinge. There is the Remington UMC crossed pennant acceptance mark on the left just below the barrel pin and another on the face of the cylinder. On the left at the rear of the frame behind the hammer is a broad arrow below which is stamped a crown and below that " E 6" and below that "E" and beneath this a II signifying the Second Model hand ejector. There are no other British markings. There is a lanyard 'ring' although it's rectangular. The revolver has the same finish in blue as a Model 29 and a Model 17 that I own. Unbelievably it slugs to .452" and even better the cylinder throats are .453" and a cast bullet ( 265-RCBS-HB) sized .452" falls through the chambers. Each one is exactly the same diameter. I think this revolver will be a very fine shooter, and I might be inclined to shoot unsized bullets as they drop from my mould at .453"in 1:20 Snb alloy. The trigger pull on this revolver is as good as my other two Smiths and a thousand times better that the Webley Mark VI. I plan to conduct an experiment as to which case, Mark I or Mark II, is the more accurate one. I am using Hornady Mark II brass and am forming some Mark I cases from .45 Colt brass on a lathe. Are other Forum members interested in this type of thing ? I'm not a frequent poster. Thanks.

 

[22hipower]

Very nice. I have 29954 but it is not in as good condition as yours appears to be. I think mine likely went through both big wars as it has what I think are Australian unit stamps on the grip strap from WWII as well as the WWI acceptance stamps. Looking forward to hearing about your shooting experience when you get it out to the range. I haven't shot mine but do have some WWII era Canadian .455 ammo so maybe will get around to it one of these days. Enjoy.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

 

[DWalt]

That one is almost too nice to shoot. Fortunate if it has not been converted to .45 Colt, and I assume you have determined that has not been. It's also fortunate you have the capability to make your own cases from .45 Colt brass. Having a small lathe is almost essential to those of us who do much cartridge conversion. There are some sources for new .455 ammo. The "B" ahead of the barrel SN merely means it shipped with a blued finish. Yours likely shipped around mid-1916. Regarding the Remington-UMC stamping, I think I have read that Remington-UMC acted as a purchasing agent in the US for the British government during that time.

 

[Texas Star]

Did Rem-UMC stamp those crossed pennants? I thought the British govt. did.


Yes, those guns interest me. I once owned one, but sold it when I needed money. Wasn't fnding any .455 ammo, anyway.


I sometimes fantasize about which gun I'd want if a British officer in WWI. I think yours is the choice, with a Model 1911 Wilkinson-Webley a close runner-up.


And I'd try to buy US or Canadian .455 Colt ammo for it. The MK I case and higher powder charge gave about 100 FPS more velocity than did issued MK II ammo.


BTW, I saw on another board this week that issued packages of MK III and MK IV ammo were sometimes marked, Not For Use Against Europeans. I'm guessing that Germany objected to use of "inhumane" ammo in WWI.


From what I've read, those Manstopper rounds created such grievous wounds that the ctgs. were deemed necessary only for use on native peoples in India and in Africa, where the normal MK II ammo was found wanting. The USA had similar problems with .38 Long Colt ammo in the Philippines. But the US never tried HP or wadcutter ammo; they just went to .45 caliber.


I THINK your gun will also use .476 ammo, not that Walmart has a special on that this week...


I wish a well qualified writer would research just how well various .455 ammo worked in battle. I'm guessing that 50 feet or closer was the normal range.


Which tartan is the gun lying on? I think L.L. Bean has offered shirts in that plaid.


Ae you Canadian? That tartan and the spelling of "calibre" made me wonder. Is new .455 ammo more easily found up there?

 

[Hondo44]

Congrats, that's a beautiful example!

There are three basic versions of .455 Mk II (Webley) chambered Hand Ejector revolvers made by S&W under contract to the British for WW I. All three versions include some triple locks. The .455 (Webley) Mk II when stamped by S&W, refers to the cartridge, not the revolver. However the 455 HE 2nd Models (3rd version below) were stamped II for “Mark II Revolver” by the British on the left rear frame of the revolvers and are known as such by them.

3rd version: “.455 Mk II HE 2nd Model” (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock), but with slightly larger cylinder/frame window dimensions from versions 1. and 2. above, the ".44 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" factory converted to .455, and ".455 HE 1st Model TL" produced in .455, respectively. The 2nd Model continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range beginning #5462 to #74755, shipped 1915-17. By Feb 1916 724 were manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, pg. 203]. Another 15 in 45 Colt were sold commercially in 1916. The Canadian military also bought 14,500 .455 2nd Models. And 1105 2nd Models were released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&W, N&J pg. 216].

Your ##6319 is an Assembly (factory work) #:

These multi-digit numbers of 3 to 5 digits, are on the yoke at the hinge, in the ‘yoke cut’ on frame opposite the yoke near the hinge, and inside of the sideplate, for the pre war and early post war period. The assembly # in the yoke cut of the frame was relocated to the left side of grip frame after model #s were assigned and the serial # was added in the ‘yoke cut’ where the assembly #, now moved to the left side of the grip frame, used to be. You know they are assembly (factory work) #s because of those 3 locations that always match on guns that are original, and that’s the only usefulness for them after guns leave the factory: still used to this day, long after serial number locations decreased.

To confirm all parts are original, check for your 6 matching serial # locations for fixed sight pre war Hand Ejectors and all post war Hand Ejectors thru ~1956 and few as much as 3 years later.
, requires magnification, bright light, and an attitude that it is there!

1. Gun butt - or forestrap on I frames/single shots with grips that cover the butt

2. Barrel - bottom of barrel or in extractor shroud

3. Yoke - on rear face only visible thru a chamber with a flashlight

4. Extractor star - backside

5. Cylinder - rear face

6. Right stock only - on back; stamped, scratched or penciled depending on vintage and stock material. (except most target grips because individual fitting not required.)

You might try the shorter 45 Schofield cases which are being produced again. You won't have to shorten them near as much as 45 Colt and worry about the case wall thickness like after shortening 45 Colt cases.

 

[smithywess]

Congrats, that's a beautiful example!

There are three basic versions of .455 Mk II (Webley) chambered Hand Ejector revolvers made by S&W under contract to the British for WW I. All three versions include some triple locks. The .455 (Webley) Mk II when stamped by S&W, refers to the cartridge, not the revolver. However the 455 HE 2nd Models (3rd version below) were stamped II for “Mark II Revolver” by the British on the left rear frame of the revolvers and are known as such by them.

3rd version: “.455 Mk II HE 2nd Model” (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock), but with slightly larger cylinder/frame window dimensions from versions 1. and 2. above, the ".44 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" factory converted to .455, and ".455 HE 1st Model TL" produced in .455, respectively. The 2nd Model continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range beginning #5462 to #74755, shipped 1915-17. By Feb 1916 724 were manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, pg. 203]. Another 15 in 45 Colt were sold commercially in 1916. The Canadian military also bought 14,500 .455 2nd Models. And 1105 2nd Models were released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&W, N&J pg. 216].

Your ##6319 is an Assembly (factory work) #:

These multi-digit numbers of 3 to 5 digits, are on the yoke at the hinge, in the ‘yoke cut’ on frame opposite the yoke near the hinge, and inside of the sideplate, for the pre war and early post war period. The assembly # in the yoke cut of the frame was relocated to the left side of grip frame after model #s were assigned and the serial # was added in the ‘yoke cut’ where the assembly #, now moved to the left side of the grip frame, used to be. You know they are assembly (factory work) #s because of those 3 locations that always match on guns that are original, and that’s the only usefulness for them after guns leave the factory: still used to this day, long after serial number locations decreased.

To confirm all parts are original, check for your 6 matching serial # locations for fixed sight pre war Hand Ejectors and all post war Hand Ejectors thru ~1956 and few as much as 3 years later.
, requires magnification, bright light, and an attitude that it is there!

1. Gun butt - or forestrap on I frames/single shots with grips that cover the butt

2. Barrel - bottom of barrel or in extractor shroud

3. Yoke - on rear face only visible thru a chamber with a flashlight

4. Extractor star - backside

5. Cylinder - rear face

6. Right stock only - on back; stamped, scratched or penciled depending on vintage and stock material. (except most target grips because individual fitting not required.)

You might try the shorter 45 Schofield cases which are being produced again. You won't have to shorten them near as much as 45 Colt and worry about the case wall thickness like after shortening 45 Colt cases.

Thank you very much for the useful information. I was interested to see your explanation of the assembly numbers and how it was moved around. Yes the matching serial numbers are seen on the back of the yoke, through a chamber, and also in back of the star extractor. I had missed those. Thank you again. I was also interested to note the three variations of hand ejector. Mine is clearly the 3rd version. I like the tip on the .45 Schofield case. The case head diameter is a little greater than the Colt case as well. I have three original .455 Colt (Mark I) cartridges put out by Dominion, in Canada. I wonder if they have the 18 grains of black powder in them ! I had this revolver shipped to me on Vancouver Island from Ontario. There are no Canadian markings on it at all. Thank you again for your expertise.

 

[Hondo44]

You're very welcome! There were many ways these entered Canada; by individual sales, the military, and including by the RCMP who ordered them in 45 Colt.

They also used Colt New Svc 455s. To solve the issue of two different cartridges, eventually some time in the 1940s, all 45 Colts were moved to eastern Canada and all 455s to west of Thunder Bay in Northwest Ontario.

 

[Texas Star]

You're very welcome! There were many ways these entered Canada; by individual sales, the military, and including by the RCMP who ordered them in 45 Colt.

They also used Colt New Svc 455s. To solve the issue of two different cartridges, eventually some time in the 1940s, all 45 Colts were moved to eastern Canada and all 455s to west of Thunder Bay in Northwest Ontario.

I knew that about the allocation of .45 Colt vs. .455 guns, and was puzzled. It'd seem that they'd send the more powerful .45's to Western Canada where a constable might more likely encounter a grizzly bear or an irate moose. I think cougars are more common there, too. British Columbia, inc. Vancouver Island, has had a number of cat attacks.

 

[Hondo44]

LOL

When I first read that information, those were my exact thoughts as well!

They must have already had more 45 Colts in the east.

 

[Jack Flash]

... I haven't shot mine but do have some WWII era Canadian .455 ammo so maybe will get around to it one of these days. ...

Be advised that your WWII Canadian ammo may be corrosive. Better to keep it for display till you know for sure. Or sell it to a collector. Post a picture or description of the headstamp(s) and it may be possible to give more information. There are cartridge identification websites if you just want to investigate on your own. But then, what would we talk about?

... I have three original .455 Colt (Mark I) cartridges put out by Dominion, in Canada. I wonder if they have the 18 grains of black powder in them !

You may be able to tell from the headstamp as above.

 

[H Richard]

I found a similar one, similar in condition, and markings, but not caliber. When I first saw this one in the case in the fine gun room at a Cabella's in Denver, I thought something isn't quite right. The finish is all original and really nice, but then I noticed the front sight filed way down, and looked into the chambers. Had to be a 38. Sure enough, the bore and chambers had been sleeved to 38, (actually a .357 would fit, but no way I'd put one in this 1915 metallurgy).

 

[DWalt]

"I sometimes fantasize about which gun I'd want if a British officer in WWI. I think yours is the choice, with a Model 1911 Wilkinson-Webley a close runner-up."

I'd probably choose the famed Webley-Fosbery automatic revolver. The British did buy some Colt Model 1911s during WWI in caliber .455 Automatic, and I have one of them. The .455 Automatic cartridge is very similar to the .45 ACP, except it has a hemispherical-shaped bullet nose. It's not the same as the rimmed .455 Webley, etc. There was also a Webley automatic pistol in .455.

 

[Texas Star]

"I sometimes fantasize about which gun I'd want if a British officer in WWI. I think yours is the choice, with a Model 1911 Wilkinson-Webley a close runner-up."

I'd probably choose the famed Webley-Fosbery automatic revolver. The British did buy some Colt Model 1911s during WWI in caliber .455 Automatic, and I have one of them. The .455 Automatic cartridge is very similar to the .45 ACP, except it has a hemispherical-shaped bullet nose. It's not the same as the rimmed .455 Webley, etc. There was also a Webley automatic pistol in .455.

But Churchill bought his Colt Govt. Model in .45 ACP. He knew firearms better than many. He took it to France in 1915, and sometimes wore it under his suit in WWII. You can see the outline well under a white suit at a conferece in Yalta, I think it was, maybe in some other Middle Eastern setting.

 

[DWalt]

In "Hatcher's Notebook," Hatcher mentions that .45 ACP cartridges work OK in the British .455 Colt 1911s. And well they may. My British Colt 1911 has a .45 ACP barrel (WWII vintage), and as I do not have the original .455 barrel, I have never tried doing that. I have read that most of the original .455 Colt 1911s were later converted to .45 ACP, as it involves little more than a barrel swap and possibly a .45 ACP magazine. One can easily tell a Colt .455 slide from its caliber stamping, which is "Calibre .455" - very British. I seem to remember that during WWI, most of the .455 1911s initially went to the Royal Flying Corps. I have a reference book packed away somewhere which has a fairly lengthy discussion of the WWI British 1911s.

I still shoot mine but not with the .455 slide. At that time Colt slides were not heat-treated and apparently they can crack (although I have not seen a cracked WWI-era slide). So I use the 1911 frame with an Ithaca WWII slide, as all those were heat treated. A little surprisingly, the Ithaca slide fit the WWI Colt frame perfectly with no fitting required.

 

[Texas Star]

In "Hatcher's Notebook," Hatcher mentions that .45 ACP cartridges work OK in the British .455 Colt 1911s. And well they may. My British Colt 1911 has a .45 ACP barrel (WWII vintage), and as I do not have the original .455 barrel, I have never tried doing that. I have read that most of the original .455 Colt 1911s were later converted to .45 ACP, as it involves little more than a barrel swap and possibly a .45 ACP magazine. One can easily tell a Colt .455 slide from its caliber stamping, which is "Calibre .455" - very British. I seem to remember that during WWI, most of the .455 1911s initially went to the Royal Flying Corps. I have a reference book packed away somewhere which has a fairly lengthy discussion of the WWI British 1911s.

I still shoot mine but not with the .455 slide. At that time Colt slides were not heat-treated and apparently they can crack (although I have not seen a cracked WWI-era slide). So I use the 1911 frame with an Ithaca WWII slide, as all those were heat treated. A little surprisingly, the Ithaca slide fit the WWI Colt frame perfectly with no fitting required.

When did Colt begin heat treating frames and slides?

 

[DWalt]

I can't give exact dates, but sometime in the early 1920s they started heat-treating only the front of the slide. I believe that sometime in the late 1930s they began heat treating the entire slide. I also think specifications for WWII production required the entire slide being heat treated, and that was done ever since for commercial production after WWII. Others may be able to fill in the dates more exactly.