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There can be endless studies, but their is only fact and opinion. Simple physics says knockdown or stopping power is not real.
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Suit yourself then. Fact and opinion do not always agree and frequently don't. I'm not disputing yours, nor am I agreeing with it. T
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Originally Posted by M2MikeGolf
Knockdown power is sometimes mythical and often perceived more than proven.
No sir, it is not sometimes mythical, it is fully and completely mythical.
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Your opinion, of course. I say "sometimes" as there are two sides to the argument. I am not supporting either. I am not stating that it is either way, so there is no requirement to state "no" or even "yes" to my comment, only that you think that it is one way or the other. I only point out the points of view. There are some experts that discount Dr. Roberts work. Statistics do not always indicate specific results based on cause and effect.
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Originally Posted by M2MikeGolf
For instance, you both reference the .22 caliber.
Nope. I never referred to the .22LR. When I stated knockdown or stopping power were terms of ignorance and have no relevance, StatesRightist tried to imply that I was advocating the use of .22 and .25 because I believe knockdown or stopping power is fiction. It was, and still is disingenuous.
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You have a habit of quoting out of context. My point here was the differences in calibers and cartridges. You do indeed reference the .22 or I would simply have not mentioned it:
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Your comment is about carrying a .22 is as laughable as your other comments pertaining to knockdown power. You are the only one to mention the caliber. About that trend....
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Statesrights referred to the .22 lr and then you referenced .22 caliber; I care very little about vitriolic insult trading at this point. I meant to illustrate the difference between .22 lr and .22 caliber, namely, the difference between cartridge and caliber and not devolve into a "he said, she said" spiral. I was not implying that you do or do not advocate either, merely that it was
referenced. It is a very important distinction as some cartridges share the same caliber, but can be quite different ballistically. You may feel that the difference is mythology, but many others don't. You may believe that "simple" physics have no play in "knockdown power" or "stopping power", but many believe otherwise, to include experts and organizations and agencies that require use of such weapons. My experience has never demonstrated that physics is simple in relation to anything, much less ballistics. Perhaps to a handful of physicists it is. If it were, we would not need computers to determine trajectories of ballistae, rockets and other such objects. Ask any gunner on an M-1 Abrams or an artilleryman.
My opinion on the matter is restricted mostly to the operator or shooter. My view is that you can have the largest caliber and energy producing projectile in the world, but if you do not train and practice and become proficient it will cancel out any notion of a power advantage.
In the case of this thread, my position is that as .40 S&W and .45 ACP are so similar ballistically, it's not really worth the debate over energy/ballistics and "knockdown power". Although there may be some evidence that physics or any other natural law has little if any effect on such issues, a lot of organizations and agencies seem to either take them into account or abide by them, no matter what anyone's opinion is.
There comes a point where energy levels and penetration capabilities must come into play to ensure effectiveness at least to some degree, however, to me the critical issue is to be practiced and proficient with whatever one's cartridge/caliber selection is. That has been my experience with weapon use, and I think you will find that it is also what most credible experts and numerous organizations agree on. Certainly, Walter Bell agreed with that theory and so did the organization I worked for.