Gas Checks and 30-30 winchester

oneyeopn

oneyeopn

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I have recently started loading cast boolits for my pistols and have been doing it for a while for my 45 colt rifle. I am now considering loading cast for my 30-30. do I need to put gas checks on them. I will be running my bullets over 1700fps but am buying hardcast 18bhn bullets. Can I install them by hand or do I need to buy any special equipment. I am learning, I read everything in my Lyman and Lee books but they were pretty vague. Any help you all can give me will be greatly appreciated. :D
 
I run a 150 grain flat point gas check in my Marlin 336. They run about 2000 fps. and no leading. Have the barrel slugged and run them .001 larger than bore to start out. I use 4198 and 2400, both perform well. Be careful and work up your load depending on what type of rifle you have. Good luck, Rod
 
rodsvet said:
I run a 150 grain flat point gas check in my Marlin 336. They run about 2000 fps. and no leading. Have the barrel slugged and run them .001 larger than bore to start out. I use 4198 and 2400, both perform well. Be careful and work up your load depending on what type of rifle you have. Good luck, Rod
Click to expand...

Rod I am also shooting a 336, do you put the gas checks on yourself or do you buy the bullets already checked. Are you casting your own I guess is a good question. Do to a health situation I cant cast but was considering buying cast bullets but I didnt know what kind of gas checks I would need and how they would go on. I dont have anybody around me that I can ask so I am treading lightly and trying to learn.
 
Generally speaking gas checks are applied when sizing. The cast bullet has to be designed for a gas check. You place the check on the base of the bullet then size / lube. Hornady gas checks crimp into the base and stay on until impact, Lyman gas checks slide over the base and mostly come off in flight. I like mine to stay put. At 1700fps, you on the boarder for gas checking. Cast bullets seem to be sold either way, the price will be 3 plus cents each higher, and on purchased bullets they are aproching the low end of jacketed prices. For 30/30 I like heavy sorf cast bullets, say a 170 or 180 grain gas checked soft lead bullet and often hollow pointed after loading. Or a 117gr hard cast GC bullet (designed for 32/20) as a slow light plinking / training round or loaded fast and hollow pointed fo a varmint load (this is big ground hog medicen).
 
Ivan can you give me a link to the 117gr gc bullet. sounds like fun on Pdogs plus great practice with my 336, I have the target sights on it already plus 3 different apertures.
 
its relative to what you want to do.
I'd say both with and without GC's
a reduced load in the 1000 - 1300 FPS range in 30 cal makes for a praiseworthy small game / light duty round that is not at all reliant on a GC. yet the very same bullet with a GC can take you to a full house load not out of place in a deer blind.
I'm in the middle of similar work for my fathers win 94 in 32 special, which is essentially the same cartridge but lends its self slightly better to cast.
I'm going to miss that rifle after I have to give it back, its kinda growing on me.
 
That was the very first bullet mold I bought, it is Lyman #311316 with the GC, #311008 without, and the old Ideal is #3118 without gas check. I don't know anyone that sells them commercally, sorry but you'll have to get into casting. That has start up costs of a furnace (electric melting pot)- or a lead pot over the fire. Mold(s) and handles, sizer (Lee has very affordable sizers) lube (for rifles don't liquid lube) and lead or alloy(many people start with wheele weights, they are hard). Usually at a gun show you'll find at least one pile of cast equipment for sale used. Check out the web sights or the paper catalogs so you know the prices. Lyman mold blocks are steel, Lee are Aluminum, You get what you pay for, but I have a couple of Lee molds that my be friend and I have cast 20,000 plus rounds on a used mold! There are triccks to useing either. The way things are going we may not be able to buy bullets for reloading or have to buy some Kalifornia legeal alloy at precious metal prices. Older Lyman loading manuels have lots of cast loads, try and find a 45th edition many good loads aren't printed anymore The 45th has really good Accuracy loads!!! If you get into casting and have questions, feel free to PM me anytime. Ivan
 
My 336 definitely does not care for light weight cast bullets gas checked or not.

I put a few through a target sideways. The nose was long and the bearing surface shorter than the nose.

It prefers a 170 -180 grain cast gas checked bullet.

Specifically Lyman #31141

With this bullet POI remains virtually the same as 170 grain JSP factory or equivalent reloads.

This can be shot with Imr 4198 with good results.

Going back to the range soon to see how 10 grains of Unique works with the same bullet.

Bruce
 
I tried the Lee 150 gr. cast bullet without a gas check in the .30-30 barrel of my Savage 24F. It was terribly inaccurate.

On the other hand, this same bullet with a gas check is amazingly accurate with moly lube and heavy full power charges of IMR 4064.

I have not had good success shooting any .308" gas check bullets without the gas check in any of my .308" rifles.

Dave Sinko
 
David Sinko said:
I tried the Lee 150 gr. cast bullet without a gas check in the .30-30 barrel of my Savage 24F. It was terribly inaccurate.

On the other hand, this same bullet with a gas check is amazingly accurate with moly lube and heavy full power charges of IMR 4064.

I have not had good success shooting any .308" gas check bullets without the gas check in any of my .308" rifles.

Dave Sinko
Click to expand...

try it over 7.5 - 8 grains of blue dot in a 30 - 06 without a gas check .... the load prefers a magnum primer as this sledge hammers the powder into better consistency. Its a low pressure load and yeilds around 1000 FPS ... its proven praiseworthy a few 30 - 06 rifles. You might want to take it for a test drive yourself, seeing as you already have the mold
 
i use cast wheel weights with a little linotype added for hardner. look into lee moulds & sizers. i use a .311 160 gr. mould sized in a .309 sizer & install gas checks win sizing. imr 4759 powder works well in cast bullet loads. tumble lube w/ alox before & after sizing. hth.
 
thanks for the information, yeah due to having to keep the oxygen on or close I will have to buy them from someone. I have some lighter weight jacketed .308 bullets I should try in either my 30-30 or the .308's I get next week. Prairie dog hunting I can load bullets singly in my 336 to try out. I load some 75gr Amax bullets in my M&P15 Sport that I have to load singly so I am getting used to it anyway but I should probably see how the lighter bullets shoot through my 336. As I understand the microgroove barrel on it is a little bit larger than a regular rifled 30-30 barrel, so I should slug the barrel anyway.
 
With Unique, I do not use gas checks for cast bullets in 30-30. I don't remember the velocity, but it was very low. Almost no recoil at all, but very accurate and a great fun load for the range. With 2400, you get a little more velocity, and that is when I step up to gas checks. For any rifle powder, I go to jacketed bullets. Using this regimen, I shot many cast bullets in my 336 and never had a bit of leading.
 
Gas checks are usually seated during the lubricating and sizing operation. Hornady gas checks are of the crimp-on type, so will work properly only with the lubri-sizer. Lyman gas checks are a simple cup form and can be pressed on by hand, assuming that your cast bullet is of the proper size and profile to accept them (a dab of Alox on the bullet base helps keep the gas check in place after loading in the cartridge, don't want it falling off inside the case before firing).

For the past 30 years or so I've used cast bullets exclusively in .30-30 for several Model 94 Winchester rifles. Lee 170 grain RNFP-GC cast of 50/50 blend of wheelweights & Linotype metal, lubricated & gas checks seated in a .309" sizer die, Hornady crimp on gas check, Alox lubricant, 30 grains H335 (or BLC-2), 1-grain loose dacron fiber fill, large rifle standard primer. Lyman "M" die flares the case mouth to allow easy seating of bullets, followed by moderate roll crimp. Approx. 2000 FPS muzzle velocity. Just about duplicates factory ammo ballistics. Groups 3" to 4" at 100 yards in half a dozen Winchesters used over the years. Has taken at least a dozen mule deer up to 100 yards with clean kills.

My sons (grown now) and several grandchildren all grew up with the Model 94's and continue to send their brass to Grampa for reloading with the cast bullet loads. My personal .30-30's (pre-64 carbine with Lyman receiver sight and 1930's Model 55 Takedown) both shoot this load very nicely. Wouldn't hesitate to take either of them on a deer hunt unless I expected ranges much over 100 yards.

Note that the Marlin 336 rifles generally have the MicroGroove rifling, multiple shallow grooves with small lands, and these do not handle cast bullets nearly as well as the more conventional rifling methods. MicroGroove barrels are excellent with jacketed bullets, but not generally suitable for cast bullets.
 
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I had read somewhere that the microgroove barrel doesnt lend itself to cast bullets but I though I would try, I hate to waste my time. I also have a Rossi 92 24" barreled rifle that I think would be perfect for cast bullets and is not running fast enough for gas checks that I may swap over. I also (in the future) want to get a Revolver in 45lc to carry when I am hunting with my rifle. 2 guns one bullet. I like that idea. Thank you so much gentlemen.
 
I've loaded both plated and lead bullets in .30-30 for my 336 and 30A. Both have the MicroGroove barrels and both shoot better than I can aim. I bought a Ranch Dog 165gr mold that is a tumble lube bullet. But you don't tumble them, you dip them in the lube. And if you really want to take your time you can pan lube them. I found Unique to be easy to use but Trail Boss seems to give more accurate slow loads. Slow for rifle but they would still do good at close in ranges on small deer like here in the South. These cast bullets seem to shoot decent with or without the gas checks installed. I've not shot many of the hotter gas checked loads but the one afternoon I was shooting them it thunderstorm'ed all of us out and we abandoned the targets. But the bore wasn't leaded at all.
 
I cast the 165 Ranch Dogs and shoot them in .30-30 336, a .300BRM Eabco, a Remington 760 carbine in .308 and my favorite, a 1952 FN Mauser in .30-06. I use several different alloys depending on intended use. For the microgroove rifling in my 336, I cast the bullets out of an approximation of Lyman #2 and check and size them at .311. They are tumble lubed before and after sizing and shoot better than I can hold the gun on a bench rest.

I shoot them as cast and tumble lubed in my voodoo lube at low velocity for range fun or small game or size them .309 or 311 with gas checks and tumbled in voodoo lube for hunting loads.

It is very important to slug your barrel so you can shoot a properly sized bullet that fills the grooves in any rifle but especially in a Marlin micro-groove rifle.

Last week I was hunting in AR. On the first day, I was using the .308 carbine in a tree stand. I shot a big doe with a 165 Ranch Dog at about 1800 fps at the muzzle. She went down like she was struck by lightning. Of course, the range was about 10 yards. The next day we were hunting the swamps and going back and forth by jon boat. When in the swamps, I carry my ragged old Marlin 336. It has survived a couple of dunkings in the past. Using the 30-30 with a Ranch Dog going about 1800 feet at the muzzle, I nailed a six point buck at about 50 yards. He jumped into the bayou and died after about six steps.

My voodoo lube is make from Xlox, Johnson's paste wax, charcoal lighter fluid, hair from the neck of a tree frog and a pinch of dirt from a colored cemetery down in Lousiana. Works like voodoo magic!
 
Bruce Lee M said:
My 336 definitely does not care for light weight cast bullets gas checked or not.

I put a few through a target sideways. The nose was long and the bearing surface shorter than the nose.

It prefers a 170 -180 grain cast gas checked bullet.

Specifically Lyman #31141

With this bullet POI remains virtually the same as 170 grain JSP factory or equivalent reloads.

This can be shot with Imr 4198 with good results.

Going back to the range soon to see how 10 grains of Unique works with the same bullet.

Bruce
Click to expand...

Bruce had my answer. 31141 cast from WW, air cooled and sized .311 and either 18-19 gr of 4198 9or SR4759. In my scoped Micro-Grove 336SC I can bust water bottle caps from the 100 yard bench. SAECO 315 is also another great .30-30 bullet, also around 170 gr.

In answer to the original question about gas checks, some folks report good results with slow, (1000-1100 FPS) loads using a GC design without the check, but I've not had success. Checks are relatively cheap, especially when you use Gator checks from the castboolits list.
 
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