Coldshooter
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I recently saw a US marked McClellan Saddle which was called a mule riding saddle. What is the difference between a horse saddle and a mule saddle?
McClellan saddle for mules
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Eltioloco
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"About 1913 the Quartermaster Department made up a quantity of modified McClellan saddles with two cinches and a metal horn attached to the pommel. This modification was designated the Model 1913 mule riding saddle and was issued to packers who rode saddle mules with the army pack trains" Taken from U.S. Military Saddles by Randy Steffen
Hope this helps.
Ken
Hope this helps.
Ken
Hellraiser
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Also... the "tree" for a mule saddle is made different than a horse-type saddle. The back and withers on a mule are vastly different. (Just as different as an Arabian's back and withers are from most other breeds.)
You need to ask Mule Packer on the S&W Forum... he has three mules and he rides mules.
You need to ask Mule Packer on the S&W Forum... he has three mules and he rides mules.
Eltioloco
Well-known member
But I don't think the Army used different trees for mules. They just cinched them fore and aft for mules. The 1859 through 1928 McClellan saddles were all centerfire rigged.
The old McClellan saddle is set up for a narrow back horse with high withers. It does not fit the modern quarter horse very well but I have used them on thoroughbred horse with some success.
Ken
The old McClellan saddle is set up for a narrow back horse with high withers. It does not fit the modern quarter horse very well but I have used them on thoroughbred horse with some success.
Ken
Hellraiser
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I'm probly wrong... but don't think cinches would totally hold a McClellen on a mule working on steep hills. I bet they used some form of saddle breeching or crupper on the rear... and some type of breast collar on the front.
But... Mule Packer has a signature line... "Pack light and cinch tight"
But... Mule Packer has a signature line... "Pack light and cinch tight"
THE PILGRIM
Well-known member
Gen. Crook was famous for riding a mule while pursuing Geronimo.
What kind of saddle did be use?
What kind of saddle did be use?
Any dang thing he wanted..
McClellan saddles were made to fit the critter first and the trooper if he was lucky.
There could be some terrible chappin' in tender places on the trooper if the saddle din't fit the critter.
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Hellraiser and Iggy are right on.
Being a hybrid cross between a mare and a jack, there are a lot of variables to a mule that can be thrown into the mix that makes up a mule's anatomy.
The big difference between a saddle built on a "mule tree" and a saddle built on a "Quarter Horse tree" or "Semi-Quarter Horse tree" is the angle of the bars. Depending on the individual mule, most Quarter Horse saddles are too wide sprung on the front for a mule at the shoulder.
So, if you place your typical riding saddle (most are usually built on "Quarter Horse trees" or "Semi-Quarter Horse trees") on your mule, it will usually fit up there towards the top or gullet of the saddle. But, if you slide your hand down between the mule and the saddle, starting at the gullet and going down to where your breast strap attaches, you'll feel where the contact pulls away slightly from the mule.
So, when you climb into the saddle, all of your weight is on top of the mule's withers because there's no support in the shoulder.
Another difference in the two saddles is what saddle makers call "pitch." Your typical horse saddle will generally have more pitch when it leaves the twist of the saddle tree. The twist of the saddle tree is the point of the tree that is leaving the withers area and starts the rib cage. Mules are usually flatter than a horse through the rib cage, but not necessarily so. I've got one molly mule (i.e. female mule) whose rib cage is so sprung you'd think she was pregnant.
The last big difference between the two saddles is what is referred to as the amount of rock or bow between the front and back of the tree. Mules don't need a lot of rock in a tree because they normally don't have that pocket behind the withers like horses have. You look at a mule's back and you can see where it is almost flat, whereas a horse has a pronounced withers.
Anyway, that's probably a heckuva lot more than you wanted to know.
Also, like Hellraiser pointed out, if you're riding a mule, you'll want either a crupper or a britchen, along with a breast strap. Saddling some mules is kinda like putting a saddle on a pig. If you don't secure it from both ends as well as around the middle, you'll either go shooting over the neck or slipping off the rump.
The McClellan saddle was usually issued with a britchen attached. I have an old McClellan that still has remnants of the original britchen.
The old McClellan saddles won't normally fit today's horses. The McClellan will pinch the heck out of your typical modern-day horse's withers. The horses of the 1800's and early 1900's were typically a little narrower in the shoulder and spine area.
Here's a picture of your typical saddle mule rig. He's got a breast strap to keep the saddle from slipping off his back when he's climbing hills, and a britchen to keep the saddle from pinching his shoulders when he starts headin' downhill.
You normally can't tell the difference between a horse saddle and mule saddle unless you strip off all the leather and look at the tree. But believe me, if your saddle doesn't fit your horse or mule, it won't take long before you find out. He'll either start pitchin' a fit, or when you unsaddle him, you'll find some gosh awful sores on his back. (By the way...soring your horse or mule up like that is a hangin' offense in some circles.)
Iggy brought out a real good point that I wish more people would pay attention to...and that is, you fit the saddle to the animal first!!! Too many people go out and buy the first saddle that catches their eye with no regard as to whether or not it's gonna fit ol' Thunderbolt.
Oh well...time to get off my soapbox.
Being a hybrid cross between a mare and a jack, there are a lot of variables to a mule that can be thrown into the mix that makes up a mule's anatomy.
The big difference between a saddle built on a "mule tree" and a saddle built on a "Quarter Horse tree" or "Semi-Quarter Horse tree" is the angle of the bars. Depending on the individual mule, most Quarter Horse saddles are too wide sprung on the front for a mule at the shoulder.
So, if you place your typical riding saddle (most are usually built on "Quarter Horse trees" or "Semi-Quarter Horse trees") on your mule, it will usually fit up there towards the top or gullet of the saddle. But, if you slide your hand down between the mule and the saddle, starting at the gullet and going down to where your breast strap attaches, you'll feel where the contact pulls away slightly from the mule.
So, when you climb into the saddle, all of your weight is on top of the mule's withers because there's no support in the shoulder.
Another difference in the two saddles is what saddle makers call "pitch." Your typical horse saddle will generally have more pitch when it leaves the twist of the saddle tree. The twist of the saddle tree is the point of the tree that is leaving the withers area and starts the rib cage. Mules are usually flatter than a horse through the rib cage, but not necessarily so. I've got one molly mule (i.e. female mule) whose rib cage is so sprung you'd think she was pregnant.
The last big difference between the two saddles is what is referred to as the amount of rock or bow between the front and back of the tree. Mules don't need a lot of rock in a tree because they normally don't have that pocket behind the withers like horses have. You look at a mule's back and you can see where it is almost flat, whereas a horse has a pronounced withers.
Anyway, that's probably a heckuva lot more than you wanted to know.
Also, like Hellraiser pointed out, if you're riding a mule, you'll want either a crupper or a britchen, along with a breast strap. Saddling some mules is kinda like putting a saddle on a pig. If you don't secure it from both ends as well as around the middle, you'll either go shooting over the neck or slipping off the rump.
The McClellan saddle was usually issued with a britchen attached. I have an old McClellan that still has remnants of the original britchen.
The old McClellan saddles won't normally fit today's horses. The McClellan will pinch the heck out of your typical modern-day horse's withers. The horses of the 1800's and early 1900's were typically a little narrower in the shoulder and spine area.
Here's a picture of your typical saddle mule rig. He's got a breast strap to keep the saddle from slipping off his back when he's climbing hills, and a britchen to keep the saddle from pinching his shoulders when he starts headin' downhill.
You normally can't tell the difference between a horse saddle and mule saddle unless you strip off all the leather and look at the tree. But believe me, if your saddle doesn't fit your horse or mule, it won't take long before you find out. He'll either start pitchin' a fit, or when you unsaddle him, you'll find some gosh awful sores on his back. (By the way...soring your horse or mule up like that is a hangin' offense in some circles.)
Iggy brought out a real good point that I wish more people would pay attention to...and that is, you fit the saddle to the animal first!!! Too many people go out and buy the first saddle that catches their eye with no regard as to whether or not it's gonna fit ol' Thunderbolt.
Oh well...time to get off my soapbox.
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OP
Coldshooter
Well-known member
Everything I know about horses could be written on a postage stamp with a paint brush. My interest has come from rereading some of the accounts of early military activity in Alaska. Horses had limitations in extreme cold, mules are not mentioned very much except by Billy Mitchell and those were used by the Signal Corps. One of the statements I read was the Cavalry tried to keep a horseman and equipment limited to 250 lbs. Is that a good target for today's mules and horses?
I took a bunch of Cavalry re-enactors on a ride from Cheyenne to Ft. Laramie for the dedication of the restored "Old Bedlam" officer's quarters.
Now them was fellers use to ridin' an office chair and their horses was fat and sassy. I can tell you that the saddles din't fit the horses and them dudes din't fit the saddles no better. Those saddles set up high off the horses backs and them ol boys soft butts and things sagged down into the gap in the saddle seat where the horse's spine was supposed be.
Well they was some chapped when we made camp. I had some Old Spice with me and told them that would take the sting outta their sore spots.
Well, I thought I was gonna have to put some of that stuff on me so I could climb up high enough in a tree to get away from them other fellers. They kinda looked like a blue lynch mob there for a while.
Two days later, there was sore horses and sore riders. Them boy and their horses was glad when the wives showed up with horse trailers to haul them home.
Now me bein' the "scout," I rode my regular old saddle and my ol pony and I got along just fine.
Now them was fellers use to ridin' an office chair and their horses was fat and sassy. I can tell you that the saddles din't fit the horses and them dudes din't fit the saddles no better. Those saddles set up high off the horses backs and them ol boys soft butts and things sagged down into the gap in the saddle seat where the horse's spine was supposed be.
Well they was some chapped when we made camp. I had some Old Spice with me and told them that would take the sting outta their sore spots.
Well, I thought I was gonna have to put some of that stuff on me so I could climb up high enough in a tree to get away from them other fellers. They kinda looked like a blue lynch mob there for a while.
Two days later, there was sore horses and sore riders. Them boy and their horses was glad when the wives showed up with horse trailers to haul them home.
Now me bein' the "scout," I rode my regular old saddle and my ol pony and I got along just fine.
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jlrhiner
US Veteran
The things I learn here.......
As a rule of thumb, that's probably about right. But you also have to remember that the cavalry were in the saddle from "can't see" to "can't see." That's a long time for both horse and rider. And they were doing it for weeks at a time. Most of today's pleasure riders are only in the saddle for a couple of hours at a time. That's not that big of a thing for most animals. And the horses nowadays are, for the most part, a little beefier than the horses of the 1800's, so packing a big man and saddle for three or four hours isn't bad.
When you're either "cowboying" or packing with a pack string, your hours in the saddle are considerably longer. Your first consideration is your animal. Do you know what they call the horseback rider who doesn't take care of his animal in the mountains? A hiker.
You also have to remember that packin' a live weight and packin' a dead weight are two different things. A horse or mule can pack more live weight than dead weight. Here's why. A rider, no matter how inexperienced, will normally help his horse out automatically. For example, when a horse is headed downhill, the rider automatically leans back, keeping excessive weight from pinching his horse's shoulders.
Likewise, when a horse starts climbing a mountain, the rider naturally leans forward, keeping the extra weight from sliding back on a horse's kidneys.
A dead weight doesn't do that. That's why with a pack animal, you usually equip them with both britchen and breast strap in order to keep the load from slipping too far forward on the downhill stretches or too far back when climbing. Because of that factor, I usually don't have my pack animals carry much more than 150 pounds.
If they're in good shape, they can do that all day everyday, uphill, downhill. Oh, a good mule can carry more, but I like to play "Chamber of Commerce" with my string and try to keep on their good side.
And believe me, if you've been around mules much, you always like to stay on their good side.
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Cooter Brown
Well-known member
No kiddin'. Absolutely fascinating thread.
Next time I watch Festus riding old Ruth, I'll know what to look for!
sipowicz
Well-known member
The mule saddle is harder on your asss.
kimporter
Well-known member
got a good laugh outta the pic of your critter stickin his tongue out,fine lookin mule
I used to ride competitive trail and endurance on an old McClellan mule saddle, double rigged and a brass horn. I loved it and it fit my old style cavalry Arabian mares perfectly. For me the key was to put padding on the stirrups as that was what hurt me when riding for all day. It probably helped that my horses were descended from some of the cavalry remount stallions used during WW I so were tough working Arabians with brains not these flighty show ring things they call Arabian now.
It also worked well on our donkey jack but did need britching and collar. We were breeding mules for a while. Good tough mountain animals. I like mules but you sure don't want to get one pissed off and that goes triple for a donkey jack. The term jack *** means what it does because of donkey stallions. You never force a donkey or mule you cajole.
It also worked well on our donkey jack but did need britching and collar. We were breeding mules for a while. Good tough mountain animals. I like mules but you sure don't want to get one pissed off and that goes triple for a donkey jack. The term jack *** means what it does because of donkey stallions. You never force a donkey or mule you cajole.
I was going to comment on that also. It's as if the mule is telling Mule Packer to stick it.
There's probably a lot of truth to that statement. That particular mule has a real sardonic sense of humor. When he was a youngster, he'd start to buck just because he thought it was funny.I was going to comment on that also. It's as if the mule is telling Mule Packer to stick it.
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Hellraiser
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There's probably a lot of truth to that statement. That particular mule has a real sardonic sense of humor. When he was younger, he'd start to buck just because he thought it was funny.
I noticed them buckin' rolls mounted on that saddle... figured as much.
