frame size comparison: Ruger six/Smith K

BB57, myself, and I am certain many others thank you for taking the time to submit that very informative post.

hittman77-there is indeed a whole lotta handgun 'puking' going on but rather than coming from me it is originating from Ruger and the stercoraceous vomiting is raining down on hapless Ruger customers who have Ruger products made as recently as 1998 for which Ruger provides no factory support.

My point is simply this: Ruger provides no warranty and they make this clear themselves, in writing with every gun they sell.

Smith and Wesson provides a warranty and they make this clear-in writing- with every revolver they sell AND Smith has stated to me that Factory support is available for handguns made from approximately 1957.

How did it go? "Feeling lucky puke"?

Until Ruger decides to provide other than an implied promise of support they really are only good for producing the best safe queens on the planet: Ruger = lookers Smith and Wesson = shooters that happen to also be lookers.

I gotta go Johnny Sokko is on and if I am really lucky the Thunderbirds will follow-FAB?

AND, when will Ruger decide to bail on the LCR-LCP owners? no worries though they most likely will direct service seekers to second/third or fourth party on line providers....

New S&W and Ruger revolvers run $500-$700. That price buys you a good, durable, accurate and functional revolver. That price does NOT buy a family heirloom or investment-grade gun. If you buy a gun new & it doesn't work, either company will make good on your purchase. If you buy a 30 year old gun, they will stand behind the guns better than any car manufacturer stands behind a 1987 automobile.

If I fired enough 357s to break a K-frame, I'd figure my gun wore out and it was time to get another one. I don't own a K-frame, but if I ever shoot my 357 J-frames to pieces...well, I'm the original owner and S&W will probably make it right. But if S&W didn't, I'd still figure I has used the gun up. I don't buy everlasting shoes, cars, TVs, chairs...or guns.

I've been reading on gun forums a lot more than usually lately because I've been in the market for another gun. Bought a Beretta 92 and will probably, in a few months, buy either a 66 or the 627 snub. But reading on the forums gets discouraging. I'm old enough to remember looking at guns in the 70s, and it wasn't a paradise. Where I lived in the late 70s, the town had one shop that sold new guns and two pawn shops. I could drive 100 miles to a city and cruise gun shops - if I could find them, no GPS steering back then - and see what they had in stock. The gun magazines mostly read like advertisements from manufacturers.

The S&W 38 I was handed to qualify on in the military was missing its sights. I was told to shut up and make do. The cylinder wobbled enough that I just hoped it wasn't going to blow up in my hand.

I'm old enough to feel nostalgia, but I'm also old enough to know the past has ample flaws. I have far more confidence in the average gun coming out of Ruger or S&W working well the first time now than I did in 1975.

More to topic, I find the L-frames less 'handy' than the old Rugers or the K-frames. Not sure why, because the weight and size differences seem trivial. Still, changing grips on a gun affects me more than the difference in size between them. Just put some Altamont grips on my 686+ last night. Compared to the Ahrends grips that were on it...I don't know. Narrower. Conceals better, I think, but points very differently. I may try what I did with the Ahrends, and sand it down to custom fit my hand.

My 3" 686+ is supposed to weigh 36.8 oz. The new 4.2" K-frame is supposed to weigh 36.9 oz. I like the new K-frame to hold, but I'm not sure it is a big enough difference to spend the money on. The old Rugers felt good to my hand, but not so much so that I want to search for one. I'd buy one, though, if they made them new.

ofnsaz-what value does a handgun have when critical parts are NOT available from the oem or are only available at great cost from aftermarket sources?

Lets set aside the non warranty issue with Sturm Ruger and Company..
You really have no problem with Ruger having made the decision to no longer provide ANY support for guns that are not even 20 years old??

I like older Rugers, and I carry a Ruger SR 1911 LW Commander, which has proven to be reliable and well made.

But...it's the only positive experience I've had with a new Ruger, and if it breaks most of the small parts are fairly standard 1911 parts.

In contrast, I bought a new SP101 a couple years ago and had to send it back to Ruger twice for severe leading. The customer service was awful.

The first time was in a period where they were not sending shipping labels but were instead reimbursing for shipping. Unfortunately, I've never been reimbursed for the $72 it cost me to ship to them the required second day air. I enclosed the receipt per their instructions, they lost it and now won't honor my reimbursement claim. That means, in the end, I paid what amounts to a S&W price for a Ruger.

It was also a waste of time as they "adjusted the ejector star", which had nothing to do with the improperly cut forcing cone that was causing the leading.

On the second "return it us" lap (this time they sent me a shipping label), they decided it was not factory repairable and promised to send me a new one. They left out the part about "6 months or so from now, when we make another run of them". They apparently could not even arrange for one to be shipped to my LGS from one of their warehouse or one of their wholesalers. The end result was that I paid for a new SP101 and then didn't have a shootable revolver for about 8 months.

But more alarmingly, think about their factory repair people's response for a minute. An improperly cut forcing cone was "not factory repairable". Best case it was 15 minutes of work with a reamer, and worst case, it would have needed a new barrel, but apparently that's beyond their ability to repair.

So consider what happens a few years down the road when you need a repair for a Ruger firearm that you bought new. Ruger is quite likely going to tell you a) "it's "not repairable", and b) "it's not under warranty and not our problem".

That makes Smith and Wesson a much better long term value.

A buddy bought a Speed-Six when they came out , I have a model 66 S&W , we shot both extensively , side by side. The Ruger is a tiny bit heftier , not by much but it is heavier a bit, just enough to be noticeable.
The S&W K frames are still the sleekest designs in the 38/357. To me Ruger's have always been beefier , but sometimes that's not a bad thing!
Gary

gsn said:

ofnsaz-what value does a handgun have when critical parts are NOT available from the oem or are only available at great cost from aftermarket sources?...You really have no problem with Ruger having made the decision to no longer provide ANY support for guns that are not even 20 years old??

Click to expand...

A gun without working parts isn't worth much. Oh well. Go buy another!

I have no problem at all with a gun manufacturer doing what they need to do to stay in business. Their job is to make a profit selling guns, not providing unlimited and endless aftermarket support for a cheap gun.

And Rugers and S&Ws are reasonably cheap guns. Most Rugers run around $550 new, and you can buy Performance Center S&Ws for under $1000. I'm still debating my next S&W, but contenders run from $550 to $900 on Buds. The last saddle I bought for my horse was $1800. The last time I bought tires for my truck, it ran $800+. My saddle will probably last 40 years, but the tires sure won't! Heck, my wife just spent $800 on some blasted phone that will be outdated in a year or two!

I think it is INCREDIBLE that I can consider buying (new) a 627 snubbie for under $1000! I can buy a 3" Model 60 for about $600-650! Both will probably work fine for 50+ years without anything more than cleaning. That is AMAZING!

Dirt cheap compared to my wife's wonder phone...:>(

The Speed Six is my favorite revolver. I currently own 5 Speeds and 1 Security. I have never sen one shot out of time. That"s not something I can say for the S&W 66. I bought a Speed Six Postal Inspector gun when they were put on the market. Mine was very used and had some end shake but it was still in time. I think your hand will wear out before the gun will. The only down side is the action will never be as smooth as a K frame.

The following link provides the best info as to why Ruger is so afraid of Magnuson Moss:

MLM Law - Understanding the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act- Attorney Specializing in Multilevel Marketing and Direct Selling Reese, Poyfair, Richards

Plain and simple-if Ruger puts something in writing THEY are committed, and the Company would not be able to tell someone to go pound sand when an issue arises with not just a single gun but an entire series of guns which are , relatively speaking-new.

More incredible is that so many are so willing to spend so much of their hard earned cash on a product which only carries the following language in writing with regard to how the Company will respond WHEN issues arise:

"Sturm, Ruger & Company wishes to assure its customers of its continued -interest- in providing service to owners of Ruger firearms"

Why anyone would choose Ruger over Smith is incomprehensible to me.

I'm not sure how this thread ended up being in a diatribe regarding unlimited warranty and parts support for firearms, however, since we are on the subject of product support, let me tell you a story.

Twenty or so years ago I replaced both of the aging, repair prone 1966 vintage Genie screw drive garage door openers in our garage with the brand new 'Lifetime Maintenance Free' Tape Drive Genie openers. They were around $300 a piece however Genie insisted the tape was, quiet, secure and maintenance free for life. The full warranty was two years.

The openers worked great for two years and two months. First the right door opener began to strain and make odd noises. A couple weeks later the left door opener started to do the same. Then within a week, they both failed while raising their door. A quick look revealed the problem, that wonderful tape had de-laminated and split, wrapping itself in a double layer around the drive sprocket, splitting the drive housing open.

I called the local Genie dealer from which I'd purchased the openers. He was very evasive, only stating he didn't sell that model any more and had no parts in stock and gave me the Genie Corporate number. I called corporate and Genie asked for the serial numbers of the units, they looked up my warranty and said it had expired two months ago for both units. Nice, great well, I'd like to buy the tape and drive sprocket. Sorry, those models are discontinued and no parts support is available. I asked for a supervisor, and got the same pat answer. I ask how a company like Genie can introduce a product, sell it for about two years then have no product support at all for that product! No answer, and not even an offer of a discount on new openers to replace the junk.

I wrote several letters to Genie regarding those openers and their complete abandonment of the customer who'd purchased them, none were ever answered. $600 plus worth of equipment, junk with no factory support less than 30 months after new purchase. Now that is bad customer service and product support!

I wish I had the money, time, and place to shoot a gun, most any gun, enough to wear it out and need parts.

I'd brag about it.

Holsters, speed loaders for K-frames always worked fine with my sixes.

I guess I called the wrong number trying to get a new de-cocking lever for my 30 or so year old M645?

Dan

steam, if your use of -diatribe- refers to an extended discussion I will agree, if your use of the noun implies any negative agenda you couldn't be more wrong.

I was shocked to discover that Ruger offers absolutely NO warranty and that they WILL NOT provide any factory support for the Six series and that NO parts are available from Ruger for this Series: remember all that the Six Series was discontinued not that long ago. What other guns will they refuse to support?

Smith and Wesson on the other hand does business in a much different manner and I think its important for all to know this.

You can invest in a Smith revolver that comes with an incredible warranty, in writing, or you can buy a revolver from the only maker on the planet that offers no warranty at all-none, nada, zip..... and its in writing with every gun they sell.

I agree that Ruger makes a fine revolver and that service most probably will never be needed by any average owner BUT I understand that most service for firearms is needed not for wear issues but rather for more suddenly occurring conditions.

I would never carry ANY handgun for personal protection which had even a single non oem part as I can envision this becoming a major legal problem if I ever had to use the gun in a self defense shooting.

Some seem to be very comfortable with doing business with a Company which has no warranty and that is fine Ruger does make very good guns and from all accounts Ruger does provide excellent, even stellar support for the guns they feel like supporting.

But from this point on its only Smith for me, for the reasons posted; great revovlers-great written warranty and info from the Company that they will support products dating from 1957 or so.

twodog max said:

I don't know if it is true but I have read somewhere that Ruger lost money on them and there were manufacturing difficulties is why they were phased out for the GP100. Can't say how much truth there is in that .

Click to expand...

I've read and heard the same thing for several years - in fact, I recall reading/hearing that Bill Ruger stated he never made any profit on the "Six" series and the "GP" for the new model revolver stood for "Great, Profit" as the new revolver sales finally generated money for him.

Regards,

Dave

When I started reloading for my rugers the hotter the better. My gf32 357 snubbie ate everything my Python did. The rugers are made from carpenter steel. There in nh too.

I own a Speed Six and the frame size is more between a K and L but still closer to a K frame. When they were still being made S&W had their K frame snub's with 2.5" barrels and the Speed Six's had 2.75". I always liked that the Speed Six shot and felt more like a 3" revolver. That longer barrel may add just a tad more weight. It's kind of ironic that the new 2017 snub 66 has a 2.75" barrel. And as mentioned they fit and can share the same leather holsters.

GSN

You are shocked that Ruger offers no support for the Six series revolvers, but see no fault in S&W offering no support for the 2nd Gen (and possibly 3rd Gen, I don't know) semi autos?

I agree on Ruger's no statement of warranty. Leaves it up to their own discrepancy.

Yes S&W will do repair work on some older revolvers. My one experience with this "service" was pretty expensive and did not fix the problem at all. They replaced a cylinder on a M15 but refused to replace the barrel, even though the front sight was not centered in the barrel rib. They did not have barrels for this gun anymore. Hmmmmmmm?

Dan

Smith and Wesson is crystal clear regarding their written warranty; send in the card and you get one year limited, after this time period the original owner (?) receives a limited lifetime warranty which covers -functional- issues and specifically excludes: finish, magazines and sights as I understand the generous written commitment to their customers.

Ruger similarly is clear as to their warranty-with every gun they inform the owner that NO WARRANTY EXISTS, no written full - no written limited warranty. Further Ruger informs its customers that the sole recourse for repair lies with the existing consumer protection laws in the State of residence for each owner.

Smith informs me that the Company provides Factory support for revolvers dating back to approximately 1957, Ruger informs me that they provide NO SUPPORT for the Six Series a very recently produced handgun and Ruger implies that additionally this abandonment of its consumer base further extends to ALL discontinued products.

More incredible to me is that people are spending the long dollar on out of production Ruger guns, not much of a problem for a safe/wall queen but plain foolish for a gun someone would want to shoot every now and again.

Only Smith and Wesson for me from now on.









































I

So we are just talking revolvers.......?

(That M15 that no barrels were available is a mid 80's gun BTW)

While Ruger does not have an official warranty, they do support their products, at least in the one instance I needed it.

I have 77/22 bolt action rifle from the early or mid 80s. Probably very soon after it was first produced. I shot it a lot, finally the extractor in the bolt wore out. I sent it in, they sent the rifle back (eventually) with a new bolt. My only gripe is they replaced my blue bolt with stainless. Not sure why they couldn't just replace the extractor. This was late 2000s, so over 30 years after I bought it. No charge.