Many, many thanks for this super-detailed answer.
May I ask, I saw
this thread, so if I follow the steps-- kroil, soak, drive pin out from top to bottom-- I should be able to remove the broken extractor from my 659? I don't want to make things worse.
Let me make sure I am tracking you here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastbolt
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The 2nd gen manual and notes list that extractor hook fit was checked using a properly sized Dummy round, looking for the tension to securely hold the round under the extractor (Sound familiar to 1911 aficionados?). If more tension was needed to hold the Dummy round, or if stove-pipes occurred, then the pad would have to be filed to create more tension (by putting the hook closer). Range testing was done to check function.
[...]
The extractor spring tension was a bit different than the older manual, too. Instead of the previous 4-5lb tension for a 9mm, there were different tensions, depending on whether it was a single or double stack 9mm, and then whether the breech (bolt) face was the older style or the newer style. The older style had the face of the slide machined with a round bolt face, with curved shoulders above the case on each side, while the new style had a straight cut bolt face (with a resulting wider barrel tab).
The "39" series guns had a 4-7lb tension, and the "59/69" series guns had a 4-11lbs tension, except that was further broken down differently for the old & new style breech/bolt face designs. The "old" bolt face was listed at 4-8lbs, but the new bolt face was listed at 7-11lbs. Except ... we were told that sometimes the older machining tolerances and methods might require an occasional gun with the old style bolt face to need a slightly heavier tension, and they offered a repair set of extractor springs that were nested (narrow/tall one nested inside a standard size spring) for us to use.
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Based on your description, and the photo below, it would appear my 659 has the "old" bolt face?
So what you are suggesting, in effect, is that I remove the old extractor, and replace it with the new one (pictured below, looks new to me).
I do have a new spring I got with the replacement extractor; I have no idea what the specifications of it are. Should I try it, or go with the old spring first?
Range testing-- perfect functioning of a few magazines full-- was regarded as good enough to determine if the tension was adequate? Otherwise, how does one determine if a dummy round is held securely?
Regarding the tension measurement, I saw a video where a guy was measuring the tension on a 1911 with a Weigand gauge and a trigger pull scale. Is that the kind of measurement you are referring to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastbolt
[...]
The slightly heavier tension was something to be very carefully approached for any particular gun, though, as it had to be the right balance to allow for both good extractor engagement and extraction, but not create too much tension that it interfered with proper feeding. I remember a couple of older production 5903's needing their extractor spring tension in the 12-13lb range after extractors had to be replaced with new ones. That was using the nested spring sets.
Later on they made the nested repair spring set obsolete and replaced it with a pair of the optional springs. Armorers could try each spring and see which spring put the tension within range and allowed for proper functioning in the occasional older 9mm (that might have a slide with some variance in the dimension and shape of the extractor spring hole).
The manuals listed some recommendations for which of the 6 extractor springs might work in the 39 & 59/69 series guns. There were 6 springs that could be tried, meaning standard and some optional ones.
[...]
Perhaps you may find a smith or armorer somewhere down there who might have an older extractor or two which might drop into your 2nd gen slide (and he'd know how to check to make sure it didn't need any filing, anyway, just to make sure).
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I reached out to one of my well-connected retired LEO friends, to see if someone among his connections might be trained for this specific job. I'm happy to pay someone with skills to do proper work, but I'm still waiting to hear back from him. I have another couple of people I can ask if necessary.
If it seems good to you, would you be willing to scan some of the old manual pages and post them? Even if you don't have a scanner, there are apps you can use on a smart phone, like
Adobe Scan, which produce good quality PDFs of documents. That way, if I have to pay someone without the specific training, at least I can refer them to the source documents? There is a shop down here I've used before which says they have a certified S&W armorer on staff, but these guns are pushing 30+ years old, so someone certified recently could be ignorant of the nuances of repairing the guns that needed a skilled touch.
Thank you so much for taking trouble. It is greatly appreciated.