Quote:
Originally Posted by ABPOS
This is going to sound all over the place. But maybe you guys can help make sense of it.....
I was in line at the Pharmacy and there was a guy there that was just huge. But not in a only fat kind of way. Not a body builder either. But in a, used to be bad to the bone but getting older kind of way. He was may be 35-40 and just looked like had a hard life. And even a bit sketchy so my defense meter was up. He was probably harmless and such but I've been burned before in the past just assuming the best in everyone around me. So I've become more wary. Anyways.... Not that I was profiling or anything. I was just being cautious. But what struck me was his size. His upper torso was just really big. I'm guessing if he lifted up his arms, side to side would been more than 24" and with his shoulders / arms down, a heck of a lot more. All of a sudden it just got me thinking about penetration.
Furthermore, it struck me that all the "viable" tests are done with gel and sometimes denim but if you're shooting at a torso, the likelihood of you hitting bone right off the bat is very good. And head shots too obviously.
And then to add insult to injury, it's starting to look a lot like... Well this year has been a weird year but suffice to say, winter is coming. And up here, it gets real cold a lot. So people wear thick jackets.
And I'm just like... a little overwhelmed by in a real life scenario in winter, if my .38's out of a snubby would actually work.
I think the answer is yes. And it's not the first time I've had this perspective but honestly, I want a round that is going to penetrate. WELL. A lot more well than everybodie's insistence on 12-18" sweet spot. Heck, I'd rather it lean towards 24". Cuz if it hits a bone, it's going to slow it down and it's not going to penetrate as deeply as it does in the tests of just gel. At least that's what I think.
But then the caveat is, I don't shoot +p's well in my 442. Some day I'd like a steel J frame, but money is tight. And beyond that, most of the +p's are rounds that will open up and will just slow down penetration anyways..... If I was going to shoot +p, I'd almost rather have a FMJ +p.
But what I've come to the conclusion is that I think I'm just going to start carrying vanilla ole FMJ. All the time. And maybe try to find some of the hotter FMJ rounds. I'm not really sure what that would be, because usually the FMJ stuff is loaded for practice and range. So they're not usually all that hot. The PMC and Winchster I've shot seem to fall into a pretty mild felt recoiling round. On the other hand, if they penetrate a lot better than any of the HP rounds, than it's kind of a win win.
So, if any of you guys have chronographed FMJ rounds with the same intent, to see what might be the hotter of them, I'm all ears. I'm also open to hearing your opinions. I know I can be kind of neurotic about this stuff and my thinking is sometimes off. And I understand WHY rounds are designed to not penetrate too far. I realize one that goes through a person could harm someone else. And I get that. But I feel like an FMJ round isn't likely to go through two sets of ribs and still be sailing out. In fact, I just watched a Paul Herrel video where he uses a set up to simulate a torso with ribs and oranges and pigs ears for skin. Etc. And none of the standard pressure rounds went through the T shirt on the back side. Although he did not test FMJ's. Just Hornady 125 XTP, 110 Critical Defense and one other load......
Now, the converse to all of this is I'm thinking about setting my wife up with my Detective Special and low recoiling rounds. Because I feel like it's better than a .22..... LOL. And even with wadcutters she didn't like the recoil.... Although she must just be better off with a .22.
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Look at it from a hunter's point of view. I've shot deer with a 45, right through the lungs and heart, that kept going, one more than a half mile, which turned and came back toward me before finally succumbing to loss of blood. Astounding.
I made that shot *not* in a stressful situation. And my son? He shot one twice with a 45 SIG at about 15 yards that we never recovered.
The only lesson here is that there is no "sure thing." One shot is no promise of desired result from any caliber. The old saying is, "If you shot a perp with a *handgun* and he stopped? It's because he wanted to."
So ... don't rely on just one shot. Don't wait and see if he continues. If you have the capability to put a second, third, fourth round into the perp, do it -- shoot until you know the threat is down, that he/she has no more interest in or capacity to harm you. Period.
Your big old lug at the pharmacy? He's probably way bigger than a deer. And clothed. But he might stop if he just *sees* the gun. Cool. Any caliber would have worked.
Or maybe he is shot and decides he don't want to get shot some more. ... Almost any caliber will do that.
Or he keeps coming. Then he will likely keep coming no matter the caliber you use unless you make tossed salad out of his central nervous system inside his brain pan or blow out his spinal cord.
The bigger the caliber the better and the hotter the load provide a potential for greater damage, sure, with a corresponding increase in *potential* to stop the threat. If you hit something vital that stops the threat. It's actually hitting something not only vital but critical to continuing to be a threat that's the key. And under duress, that often means firing more than one shot.
A .22 that hits at least once is better than a 10mm that misses repeatedly.
So if 38 is what she feels comfortable shooting, awesome. Emphasize practice that involves emptying that thing until the threat is clearly over. If it's a .22, it's especially important to be prepared to just keep pulling the trigger -- and get some, let's just say, "higher up on the target" when there's an opportunity.
My concern as a boyfriend/husband/brother/father of a woman is only that she not carry a round so powerful she can't keep it on target or closes her eyes to shoot it (My wife is right now carrying a 9mm Shield. She hates her compact Ruger .380, so no, we don't want that in her purse. But she's so much, much more confident carrying her Taurus .22, I have no problem when she opts for that. It's up to her which she feels most comfortable with for EDC. I just feel better that she *always* carries and practices getting to it, that it's not in the bottom of her purse. After all, she may have to use it to protect *me*).
As always, it's about "stopping" the threat, not really about killing him/her. In most cases (what is it, 97%?), just presenting a weapon stops the threat. If not, and the first shot drops 'em, great. If not, just keep pulling the trigger -- whatever caliber in whatever platform that you use. It's better than firing the hottest round in the biggest bore you think has the most "stopping power" -- and completely missing.
As for what *you're* loading in *your* pistol? Dude. Dudn't really matter. I opt for hollow points in my .357 and .40 because I don't want to *over penetrate*. I want them to expand and transfer all their energy to the perp. That said, guess what -- they probably still will. Deer I've shot with my .357, the stupid high-velocity gold dots just sizzle their way right through them, leaving a pencil hole. I've never gotten the touted expansion from them. My 40s, the deer I shot with one, same thing. Through and through, no great expansion.
And in my 45? I go with cheap, factory-made, 230 grain FMJ because *I* am confident there really isn't that much justification in changing to exotic loads for that round.
Is that the *average* experience. Hell no. But... it *does* happen. How in the world can you really expect a bullet to perform in a given gun fight the way you saw it perform on ballistic gelatin? What difference does the chronograph make in real-life situations?
You can't know. You can't predict.
Don't sweat the little things. Just... carry!